I'm trying to think of an example where that might be true and am coming up empty. The squeeze on the families buying power is just as prevalent in non manufactured goods and services. It doesn't cost one red cent more to design a thing right as it does wrong. The cost of heat treat is the same for 62 RC and it is for 55 RC. The cost of steels and alloys properly selected are a wash. Fit and finish is head a shoulders above 1950 levels as is motor life spans. However the 4-5-6 clutch packs in the 6L80E is a great example of stupid is as stupid does. The design is flawed. The apply piston fails to support the clutch discs fully. The cost of the properly designed parts from the aftermarket are cheaper retail than the flawed design factory original replacements. Cost to the consumer is not the issue. Greed is the issue. US buying power is down 40% since 1960. Inflation has out stripped earnings as steady and as slowly as a Boa eating a rat for five decades plus. that is not the result of anyone's necessity. Just plain old greed. Frogs boiled slowly don't notice their dying but can be convinced their not in danger by their own gullible senses.
Grumpy Bear replied to BradyM's topic in 2014 / 2015 / 2016 / 2017 / 2018 Silverado & Sierra Issues, Troubleshooting, & Recalls/Service BulletinsTechnically they're called 'coil overs' as the unit is not replacing the upper control arms function as it would in a McPherson Strut assembly. Tricky question. IF the alignment was on the money before the swap AND the ride height didn't change at all, then no, an alignment is not required. In your case, however, we can assume your alignment and perhaps wheel balance were not in spec as your tires are chucked so...yea...it needs more work. Now that your coil overs are replaced the order of events then is new tires mounted and balanced then alignment. The alignment spec is as wide as a barn door on these K2XX truck. Target mid to low spec on caster, mid spec on camber and toe then assure the thrust angle is as close to zero as possible with zero steer ahead and a centered steering wheel. Not all rear axles are set dead square. IMHO of course. Happy motoring.
Fram commercials. Yea, I remember those. That was awhile ago. ( a rant) This emissions and mileage thing has been a frog jumping half way to the wall of dependability/reliability for quite some time. Metallurgic technology advances haven't moved as rapidly as the destructive forces of heat and heat seems to be Detroit's favorite tool and with sound scientific cause. It lowers Nox and viscosity. Keeping the current technology alive and well is a combination, as you've learned, of controlling the quality of the fluids used to cool and lubricate. How long they are pressed for service, how clean they are kept and most importantly the temperatures they are allowed to suffer. That last ones primary lever is load. If you need to load it more than heat says prudent then add a cooler or two. Lower a thermostat setting. Add a fan. (rant done) True story. I run a 2005 HD Electra on 40W. I also added twin coolers that hold oil temperatures to 90F plus ambient. The cam chain tension assembly in these has a know planned failure of 35,000 miles. The factory recommends 50W and preplacement of tensioners and chains every 30K. Cost about one grand. This is an example of a planned failure for profits sake. If you ignore this he chain fouls the backing plate pulling debris into the off drive main bearing and BOOM!!. I ran mine 45K and when pulled down for inspection the tensioners still had 95% + of their original thickness left. In fact I gave permission to replace any other parts not found to be inside new manufacturing tolerance. (this is a top end tear down if you don't allow pushrod cutting and I didn't) Yep a blank check to a dealership. Not a singe part was replaced other than gaskets and tension assembly. A factory HD TC88 will run between 240 and 310F bulk oil temperature on a 90 F day depending on how hard your hammering it. I run 190 F on that same day no matter what. I did the Dragon on a 95F day in third gear never exceeding 40 mph under as much throttle as grip would allow and never broke 200F. The two other bikes with me were both over 300F. Deals Gap 318 curves in 11 miles. Heat is a killer even with great oil.
Seems few know who he was. That's sad. Dan was an innovator not just a determined driver. When young (50/60's) we listened to the Indy 500 on the radio. Dan, his teams, his cars were always it the thick of it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Gurney https://www.adandp.media/articles/dan-gurney-creates-a-new-engine https://bangshift.com/bangshift1320/want-some-different-heads-on-your-small-block-ford-these-gurney-eagle-pieces-will-do-the-trick/
The Irrelevance of Truth to Men? One can provide all the ‘facts’. Ones proofs can be as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar. Arguments can be so logical Aristotle would approve. The Apostle Paul may applaud ones reasonableness till his hands go numb. God might even open heaven and let his sprit descend like a dove…but…If you ain’t say’n what people WANT to hear… People know the account of Jesus raising his close friend Lazarus from the dead in front of a multitude of eye witnesses. Even those without a Christian belief have heard it. But read the remainder of that account…please.. John 11:44-48 (ASV) long quote to provide context…. “” 44 He that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes; and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. 45 Many therefore of the Jews, who came to Mary and beheld that which he did, believed on him. 46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees, and told them the things which Jesus had done. 47 The chief priests therefore and the Pharisees gathered a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many signs. 48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”” Imagine after waiting for thousands of years for the Messiah to arrive. He stands in their midst. For thirty three and a half years he has fulfilled hundreds of prophecies marking him as God son. He has perfectly fulfilled the Mosaic Law. He has raised the dead, cured the ill, feed the hungry, and their biggest worry is…. the Romans will come and take away both our place…? Their personal social, religious and political status ranked first. When you read this account it is the fact that Christ had enough witnesses that even Rome would hear of it, and did, thus the event undeniable, that set them off. Tiberius Caesar Dīvī Augustī Fīlius Augustus, Rome’s Emperor at the time could realize their fears! Now here is a lesson is the logic of mortal men. They feared a man, who would himself die, Caesar; that could put them to death but not prevent their eventual natural death and yet…show no honor to the one, Jesus; with the power to both raise them from the dead and give them eternal life or…worse…fear that he may decide not to. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NASB) 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. People hear and believe what they want. There isn’t any convincing to it…unless…the actual truth is all they desire.
Wait a minute. You bought one that you had some undisclosed issue with you don't feel is relevant to share...and then went out and bough a second one just like it? Reeeeeaaaaally? You hated it so much and it was such a big problem that you bought a second one? What the.....!! And wrap that all up under the heading of science? Smells of stockyard on a hot day in Oklahoma. Or just irrational. I don't do irrational 'me too' babble.
Thank you Mookdoc6!! So it was an issue for a short period of time over some 'sourced parts' and GM has the records to identify a few week span. More importantly, they took care of it as Jsdirts experience, "once fixed it's fixed" seems to uphold. Told ya Jsdirt I wasn't looking for your head. C'mon man...smile... That isn't a 'sky is falling" situation. Doesn't rise to the level of a conspiracy. But a great example of how a situation gets 'blown out of proportion' with some cyber help and how that lingers on ones reputation. Don't you just love the internet? Ecotec3 sounds like it's going to do just fine.
Jsdirt: Take a breath brother. I called no one a liar nor even implied it. In fact I recall stating I valued both your tech and you writing. I also said, failures without a reference point are not proof that determines prevalence. I don't care how many there are. There can be thousands of post. There are millions of AFM units in service. Until those two are correlated it means zip. I'm not looking for your head. I'm looking for the truth. It's okay if you don't know. In fact I'm being more that fair. Ever hear, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Just because you don't have the information doesn't mean the problem isn't there. I never denied it was a problem. It means we don't have a feel for it's prevalence and until we do it is ill advised to start yelling "FIRE" in a theater. It's kind of what your doing when you make a claim you can't support with rational statistical proofs. If the truth is 1 in a 1,000, I'm not concerned. If it's even 250 per 1,000 I'm not just concerned, I'm mad. How many ways can I say that? I'm not sticking up for GM. I'm sticking up for scientific method and rational conclusions from data. I don't hang people because I think their guilty. Yes that gets me taken advantage of and no I'm not good with that. But my reputation is more important to me than bloodletting. Now exhale. Diyer2: Sounds like a solid program. My father is your carbon copy in this regard and it serves him well. He has more 400,000+ motors than anyone I personally know. Keep it up!! I follow his model when I toss Red Line Oil at 5K and for the same reasons you do. It just works and cheaper than a new motor or even a truck.
I've asked for facts. You say you can't supply facts and yet you insist you have insight into the commonality of the problem. Then state that I can read the "post" as my assurance. These "post" are also without reference to volume and support nothing of the sort. Not sure it is I who is making assumptions? You're actually defining what it means to make an assumption. Stating the gravity of a problem without any knowledge of reference. Hi Diyer!! How's the snow load today? "Take the heat". Some can, I agree. Now...what do you think that means? If you think that there are oils today that are formulated to resist thermal oxidation better than the conventional 'dino' standard. I also agree. However if you believe that this means the laws that rule viscosity change with temperature are null and void because of that. We disagree. Oh they can slow an oil today from rapid thermal fracture that leads to viscosity loss or thickening and high temperature deposit formation. But that 20W at 300 F is about 2-3 cSt. About as light as room temperature WD-40. It isn't much heavier at 250 F. The viscosity relationship is only linier between 40 and 100 C. http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ We use to have 192 F thermostats (or lower) and a lot less motor load in terms of demand power density. A daily driver hadn't much of an issue holding the bulk oil temperatures down under 212 F. Today normal operating temperature is 20 to 40 F over the water temperature and the water temperatures are 210 F in light load and 240 F + pulling a load. Viscosities for that same loads are now 1/3 of what they were for our beloved iron 350's. Now ask yourself. How would you feel about pulling your 9,000 lb. travel trailer over Wolf Creek Pass with a 1968 C-10 powered by an iron 350 with a crankcase full of 0-W ? Because that's about what they are asking the new motors to do. It's actually lighter than 0W at load pulling operating temperatures. They thing missed often is that the motor doesn't care what the viscosity is on the label of the bottle or in a test rig in the lab. It responds to the actual temperature at the interface. These are my reasons for installing a 170 F thermostat, using Group V oils, changing every 5K and driving like Mr. Magoo. I run 5W20 in a 4.3 that has a call out for a 5W30 and my oils viscosity at the 180-190 F measured temperature it runs at is more viscous than 5W30 at the 245 F measured temperatures it use to run at on a warm day unloaded. They hydraulic viscosity needs are fulfilled, the AFM happy and the motor a good deal more protected. It ain't my first rodeo. This is a plain case of an unrelated truth seemingly supporting a well told lie. It's is, in fact, more thermally stable and it doesn't matter one iota because thermal stability hasn't a damn thing to do with heat related viscosity reduction until after the fact. It just sounds like it does and that is the effectiveness of this lie. Oh sir, and it is told boldly and defended with vigor. It's also crap. Lastly there is the issue of defining synthetic. Until the majority are telling the truth the fact remains the by law 'Blend' means as little as 5% and 'Full' can mean Group III. Only a handful of companies are willing to state content. More lies based on half truths. Understand. But that wasn't the point I was making with that reply. If your going to state a thing as a fact it better have more support than a 'I believe it so'. Points of reference are demanded by both logic and sound scientific method.
Then I gather from the composite of all your post that we are dealing with a fairly low occurrence situation. 'I'm in Ford country' and 'mine (2007 ?) failed' indicate you've repaired two (?) or few (?) Given the unit sales over the LS/Ecotec3 run in your area alone that isn't allot is it? You state in another post that after a fix it stays fixed and assign it to poor assembly practice. Thus repair parts are obviously improved in any number of ways which indicates this is not in fact a design issue but a QC issue. Man is incapable of making anything with zero defects. Even NASA blows up a crew now and again. Perfection is God's territory. "Lifter failure" doesn't say much. We never learn if this is an excessive leakage (plunger) issue. A plunger sticking issue. A roller or roller bearing/pin failure. A locator failure. Each has it's own root cause. QC failed to control clearances. QC failed to catch heat treat issues. Design failed to engineer effectively although it seems ruled out in the 'stays fixed' statement if there is no visible difference. At this point I'm going to toss two cents on the table in question form and refrain from making a conclusion. When did GM routinely start using 207 F thermostats with a +/- of 3 F as standard issue? What happens to oil temperature when water temperatures are that hot? What happens to a liquids viscosity when heated? What is the upper temperature spec for SAE viscosity testing? Does the oil temperature exceed the SAE upper limit? If so by what degree? What is the viscosity at that temperature? What happens to boundary layer lubrication at excessive temperatures? What lubrication mode is in play in a plunger lifter? What happens to film strength at elevated temperatures? What prevents even hardened materials from failing in close contact at extreme pressures and loads? What happens to even good oils at elevated temperatures? Does it leave a residue? Will it affect a clearance? Does it matter if it is stuck collapsed or bleeds collapsed? Why isn't common sense common? Did I hint at multiple failure modes? Is there anything an owner can do about any of this?
No worries. I don't carry grudges. They are to heavy. I understand. As cheaply as I bought mine it still cost multiples of what my fathers home cost him and still a good portion of what mine cost me. Over the last forty years, by my research, our buying power has shrunk about 40%. Tis the reason both mates in the home work now when one would could manage in my early life. My grandmothers furniture was her mothers and lasted over one hundred years and don't kid yourself; on the day she died it looked new. My kids went through about five bedroom sets a piece. I'm sure they were no rougher on it than my father was on grandma's stuff. Homes, furniture, cars, trucks....all falling to greed, corruption and apathy. Nobody starved because someone built quality. No business failed for this reason either. In my grandfathers day if there were two harness masters in town they fella who built the longest lasting put the other out of business. Now they collaborate. Ford and GM and the ten speed for example. Point is, it's changed and if your going to drive you're going to buy someone's crap because it's all crap and more often than not today, made in the same village by the same village idiots. For us in the trenches it's about managing this sorry but simple fact. It isn't...what is it. It's what to do about it. And what to do about it is educate yourself, mange your expectations and find a course of action you can live with. That is until God fixes it once and for all. If you don't, all you have left is complaining and failed expectations, and while you can find people that will listen...for awhile...it changes nothing but the nature of your relationships. So let's start with something you do know. When a Pre-Ecotech3 motor comes into your shop for an AFM related failure is it: 1.) Pre or Post the GM fixes of baffling, venting and oil rerouting? 2.) Is it a failure of wear or a failure of tear (as my father would ask of the hole in the knee of my Jeans). 3.) Is it measurement related? 4.) Metallurgy related? 5.) Lubrication related? 6.) User related? 7.) Something else? If at all how has this changed with the advent of the Ecotec3 motor platforms? What can we hang our hats on that we do know.
I am not ignorant of your plight nor of the commercial systems sins, which are many. I suppose this felt like a personal attack and for that I am truly sorry. It was not meant to be. What is was meant to be was a push toward scientific inquiry and in the end, relief. I believe in stats. I believe in science. I believe in God. In rational application of all the for-stated. Past that I have grave doubts. I rarely trust even my own motives and even less in my own knowledge. As the professionals you and I are I do understand your frustration. Those with a heartfelt love for this work and the auto in general are sensitive to this REAL commercial villainy and yes we feel a need to vent on that a bit now and again. I get that. I really do. But I also understand that in a forum setting it is the evil and not the good that sings the loudest. Thus the need for a statistical point of reference to prevent distortion and, silly as this may sound, attempt to do what a forum was meant to do. Help people. No one is denying that there is or was or even may continue to be an issue. The evidence is clear enough. It is no longer a question. What we don't know is how often. The gravity of the situation is relevant, is it not? 1 in a 1,000 is certainly not the same issue, or crap shoot, as say 700 per 1,000. You can see this, I know you can. Did the GM fixes work? If not each has it's own solution. That later demands I look for a different brand of truck. The former asks questions such as those I asked earlier. Is it a lubrication issue. A metallurgy issue? A design issue? The result of some habit of ones own making. Some things I can do myself, some need a fix perhaps I can also do myself. But we need information to do this and guys like you are our best source of that information. Even if you can't get your hands on that data what does an honest appraisal of your experience tell you? When you do a repair what does your postmortem revel? Give us a clue brother and hammer out a solution if one is to be found! Whose parts are viable replacements? Should I use using Crane Lifters if the GM replacements are no better? Has someone outside GM addressed this with success? Have any tips and tricks? You've already shown yourself a talented writer and an able tech. Now share it. Please...use your skills as a guide not a siren. There is enough unfruitful negative pilling on problems already.
So we haven't any valid point of reference for the Ecotech3 motors nor, an more importantly, do we have a valid reference for the LS series. That would have been the failures per hundred units sold. This leaves "they will fail' on some pretty shaky ground. Can't even say 'likely to fail'. What can be said is "some failed". Some light bulbs fail. Maybe we should go back to kerosene lamps. What has this to do with AFM failures? Nothing. Nice deflection however. Actually it weaken the lifter arguments believability. A second unrelated issue does not add credit to the first. And there we have it. So...it isn't a design issue? It isn't even and oil related issue? It's an assembly issue? Yea, I don't believe in elfin magic. This paragraph gives the credit to the repairman. Said more believable would have been; the replacement parts were made of a better material, to a tighter measurement spec or to a higher degree of accuracy in heat treating OR some batches of OEM factory installed parts fell threw the cracks. If that would have been the case then there wouldn't have been a redesign of the system which brings it full circle. It was, in fact, a design issue and it was addressed. Rocker covers, breathers and a redirect of the bleed oil system. All in all, about what I figured.
If I may impose on your experience. Compare the failure rate between the LS platform AFM (above) to that of the 2014 and later Ecotec3 AFM platform with point of reference. Example: X in a hundred motors sold experiences an AFM failure pre 2014 vs X units per hundred sold post 2014. If you feel so inclined it would be useful to compare as well failures pre and post the AFM 'fix' era as well. Thank you in advance for any information presented.
Grumpy Bear replied to Hoginedgewood's topic in 2014 / 2015 / 2016 / 2017 / 2018 Silverado & Sierra Accessories & ModificationsI was commenting on what people believe. Not taking sides on an issue but I will. Personally, I like my AFM and believe oil service and driving habits have more to do with it's reliability than it's design. Time will tell. I only have 53K of trouble free to date. (Mobil got 500 K) I also believe reputation is a hard thing to recover. IF GM would have FIXED the issue the first year instead of denying the obvious on the previous motor platform and did right by the customer then the stigma of the issue would not have lingered well past the remedy and attached itself to an all together different motor platform. Now they are stuck with the stink like a dog that got to close to a skunk and thus my original comment on what people believe. It will take a generation of tomato juice to rid itself of the sour smell it created. As the last poster also noted, there is no shortage of trolls that like to keep the fires lit.
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