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#1 downsized

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:35 AM

So I've been running M1/ACdelco for the last 2 changes- odometer 10-15K and 15-18K. Both times it came out looking crappier/darker than I would have liked,and moreso than the penzoil conventional prior to that. So I'm back to conventional,somewhat out of subjective evaluation, but also because I have developed a tick when warm on the right rear area, rpm dependant- noticable but not loud, and not there on warm-up. Best heard from underneath or with my head in the wheel well. It started after a couple of 4 hour @ 2000rpm trips. :cheers:

I have the M1 10-15K miles sample out for analysis now to compare to the 6-10K conventional Penz that I already had done. Ought to be interesting.
I was pondering why NOT to use 10w-30 vs 5w-30 considering where I live- we get only a few and light freezes per year here in Fla.

So, any back to conventionals out there( other than for economic reasons)? :thumbs:

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#2 spurshot

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 12:25 PM

Les,
Can you eliminate the 'tick' cause as an exhaust leak? The area you seem to hear it loudest would certainly make it possible as an exhaust leak.

A cheap stethescope will help track it down if it's an internal engine noise like a lifter. Put it on the valley cover and it should be loudest there if its a lifter.

I think it's just coincidental that the "tick" developed after you changed oil types. Many have had the lifter tick develop on conventional oil. My 99 has been on Mobil 1 since the first change at 1500 miles and had a lifter tick for years, probably in the first 100,000 miles. But it went away and now has 215,000 miles. :cheers:

Edited by spurshot, 16 December 2009 - 12:29 PM.

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#3 coloradoSkiCountry

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 02:58 PM

I went back to normal conventional oil because I change my oil every 5000 miles or 6 months, which ever comes first, regardless of the oil life monitor. (Usually twice a year in my case) There are tons of vehicles out there that have 300,000+ miles on them that got there with conventional oil and have no issues. In my case like most other folks out there, I won't be keeping my truck very long before getting another, there are really no short term gains by running synthetic in an engine perfectly capible of running conventional with the same results, fuel economy, power, the works.

Now, if you run your truck hard, or live in a cold climate, I can see some advantages there.

Given the fact that I'll be getting a new truck within the next few months, no sense in throwing away $$$ for synthetic. Valvoline 5W30 works just fine for me.
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#4 txab

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:14 PM

I wouldn't even switch for economic reasons.... I find better deals on Syn. than dino oils. I've bought Penz Plat where I was getting it for about under $1 per qt after rebates/coupons. In 2008 I was able to actually make money on Syn purchases. :cheers: Bought M1 recently for $1.40 per qt after rebate. I don't just buy for 1 oil change either.

Be sure and post your UOA PDFs for both oils.

Your M1 may be darker because it's doing it's job.... keeping your engine clean. The darkness can be from the materials that are held in suspension by the oil.

Edited by txab, 16 December 2009 - 03:16 PM.

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#5 downsized

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Chuck- actually I had noticed the tick before I switched to the conventional and it was part of why I did ( in addition to it's looking quite dark), and fortunately I do have several stethescopes from which to choose ;) Time to get in auscultation mode. Yes, I was wondering about a leak at the manifold, and of course the dreaded AFM lifter tic- FWIW my AFM is turned off now also. FWIW the OLM said 80% at 3000 miles.

Can anyone comment on 5w-30 vs 10w-30 viscosity at start up in non freezing temps? I hear at like -20* F there is a difference, but @ > 30* aren't they same?? Yes, I saw what the uwners manual had to say- blanket 5w-30 reccomendation except ,20* use 0w or syn.

Once home today I'll check real well- it will be the first day since the oilchange and will be interesting to see if it is still ticking when hot- it was not this morning.

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#6 snakedoctor

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:54 PM

Thanks Chuck- actually I had noticed the tick before I switched to the conventional and it was part of why I did ( in addition to it's looking quite dark), and fortunately I do have several stethescopes from which to choose ;) Time to get in auscultation mode. Yes, I was wondering about a leak at the manifold, and of course the dreaded AFM lifter tic- FWIW my AFM is turned off now also. FWIW the OLM said 80% at 3000 miles.

Can anyone comment on 5w-30 vs 10w-30 viscosity at start up in non freezing temps? I hear at like -20* F there is a difference, but @ > 30* aren't they same?? Yes, I saw what the uwners manual had to say- blanket 5w-30 reccomendation except ,20* use 0w or syn.

Once home today I'll check real well- it will be the first day since the oilchange and will be interesting to see if it is still ticking when hot- it was not this morning.


Not much difference between 5 & 10. The 5 will pump slightly better at cold temperature, Both will be the same 30 weight at operating temperature.

Viscosity is sort of a weird and complicated thing that can be measured in different ways with different results. The 5w measurement is taken differently from the 20/30/40 measurement, so the numbers are not necessarily comparable. Also keep in mind that 5w is a range, and a 5w-40 will usually (but not always) be higher in that range than a 5w-20.

All 5w-xx oils are similarly pumpable when cold, and all xw-20/30/40 oils are in the same viscosity range when hot.


http://www.bobistheo...p...8&Itemid=55

http://www.upmpg.com...sity/index.html

(I hated to use an Amsoil website, I am always on their case)

Edited by dlstewart01, 16 December 2009 - 04:54 PM.


#7 downsized

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 04:39 PM

While I have not been able to get a good/stethescoping listen yet, since the oil change the ticking seems to be less obvious, and actualy seems to vary in intensity as it is idling- waxing an waning in volume every few seconds.... but it does seem that the fresh conventional has made it less "sharp" a tick, down to almost inaudible at times :lol:

-ok-that was yesterday, today it is as before intensity wise, but does vary still.

Do fuel pumps make a similar sound? My (diesel)tractors sure have but I know that's not apples.

Edited by downsized, 18 December 2009 - 06:35 PM.


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#8 ken1mod

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 07:34 PM

Tried mobil 1 , engine got noisey, went back to dino, never looked back.

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#9 redvett

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Posted 18 December 2009 - 08:27 PM

I have used Mobil 1 on all my vehicles and generators,tractors,mowers, etc since 1973 and have not had a failure. My oldest vehicle is my 67 427 Corvette with 80K and lots of business vehicles that were body wise wore out but still running great without internal repairs. M1 for me.

#10 ken1mod

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 10:38 AM

Gentlemen,

All oils are beyond excellent. Synthetics make us feel good but No one and I mean no one has ever had an oil related failure of any sort. Hardest part of any engine to lubricate was flat tappet cams. Even These never wore out, in general. Chevy has eliminated that by going to roller cams. All modern oils will provide unlimited life for an engine.

Gear units can be different. They are harder to lubricate. I have used synthetics there as required. Always use manufacturer approved lubes. Synthetics are great but so are modern dinos.

ken

#11 snakedoctor

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:17 AM

Gentlemen,

All oils are beyond excellent. Synthetics make us feel good but No one and I mean no one has ever had an oil related failure of any sort. Hardest part of any engine to lubricate was flat tappet cams. Even These never wore out, in general. Chevy has eliminated that by going to roller cams. All modern oils will provide unlimited life for an engine.

Gear units can be different. They are harder to lubricate. I have used synthetics there as required. Always use manufacturer approved lubes. Synthetics are great but so are modern dinos.

ken


Pretty much right on. Synthetic oil will have a lower pour point and protect better at extremely high temps. Those who live in Canada right now will know about extreme cold and the benefits of synthetics.They go a little longer between oil changes. Soon we will be seeing the new API requirements of ILSAC GF-5. This will almost require a Group 111 synthetic to be able to meet it. Oil are getting better all the time. Conventional has come a long way.

One of the reasons GM specs synthetics for the Corvette is due to constraints in getting every thing fitted under the hood, they did not have room for the oil cooler, so they removed it, conducted many tests and found Mobil 1 to protect better at the elevated temps. so that is one of the reasons for GM requiring the Corvette and other GM vehicles to meet this synthetic oil spec--GM4718m.

Edited by dlstewart01, 19 December 2009 - 11:29 AM.


#12 elcamino

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 11:28 AM

Both times it came out looking crappier/darker than I would have liked


Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of carbon are suspended in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but they cause the oil to darken. Actually the the oil is working as it should and not letting these form deposits and sludge.


While I have not been able to get a good/stethescoping listen yet, since the oil change the ticking seems to be less obvious, and actualy seems to vary in intensity as it is idling- waxing an waning in volume every few seconds.... but it does seem that the fresh conventional has made it less "sharp" a tick, down to almost inaudible at times


Its not the oil, there is a service bulletin out on this.

#PIP4499A: Short Duration Lifter Tick Noise On Cold Start - Aerated Oil In
Lifter - keywords BQMI - (Jun 16, 2009)


Subject:Short Duration Lifter Tick Noise on Cold Start - Aerated Oil in Lifter

Models:2009 Buick Lacrosse Super, Allure Super (Canada Only)
2007 Buick Rainier
2007-2009 Cadillac CTS-V
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2007-2009 Chevrolet Avalanche, Corvette, Express, Silverado, Suburban, Tahoe, Trail Blazer
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With Any of the Following V8 Engine RPOs:
L76, L92, L9H, LC9, LFA, LH6, LH8, LMG, LMF, LS2, LS3, LS4, LS7, LY2, LY5, or LY6



This PI was superseded to revise repair instructions to include replacing the oil pump and pick-up tube o-ring. Please discard PIP4499.
The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.
Condition/Concern:

Some customers may comment on a short duration lifter tick noise that occurs after cold start and can last for several minutes. This may be the result of air in the high pressure chamber of the lifter affecting valve train lash. When this occurs, valve closing velocity is increased, which causes the noise. Air can be present in the lifter at shutdown due to an aerated oil condition, or it can be ingested into the lifter during a cold start from a suction side leak at the oil pump or oil pump pick up tube o-ring. Oil aeration level, oil viscosity, time to achieve oil pressure, engine speed, and lifter design all play a part in whether lifter noise is observed. Once air gets into the high pressure chamber, it will slowly be expelled through the very tight clearance of the plunger and body.
Recommendation/Instructions:

If the SI diagnostics do not isolate the cause of this concern, perform a cylinder power balance test with the Tech 2 while listening to the noise.
If the noise is eliminated, or is greatly improved, each time a specific fuel injector is cancelled, there is most likely a concern with the clearance of the related piston pin or piston to cylinder wall of that cylinder.
If there is no change in the noise when canceling the fuel injectors with the Tech 2 and this noise occurs at valve speed, the noise is most likely a result of air in the lifters as described above. The air may be the result of a suction side leak at the oil pump and/or pick up tube o-ring, or it may be the result of the lifter design.
If this concern is encountered, replace the oil pump and pick up tube o-ring and re-evaluate the noise. If this does not repair the noise, updated lifters will most likely repair the noise but they will not be available until the 4th quarter of 2009. This P.I. will be updated with additional information as soon as they are available. Replacing the lifters with the ones currently in GMSPO stock may not repair the noise.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.


Edited by elcamino, 19 December 2009 - 11:40 AM.

Mike

#13 Jansen

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 07:57 PM

My story about Syn vs. Conventional.

1987 Jeep Comanche 4.0L Inline Six, ~135,XXX miles (2001)

At 20F or lower, with Valvoline 10w30 conventional, lifter noise at start up and would last for 10-15 minutes after the engine was (driving, idling, combo).

County engineer friend of mine switched all county vehicles to M1 15w50 Syn. Ran this in his Chrysler minivan, minivan had over 150K. I took a shot, put it the jeep and lifter noise was gone after ~30 seconds on cold start (20F or lower).

I run M1 in my 2004 Sierra now and have since 2,000 miles. I'm a fan of Synthetic but as noted on this forum I know plenty of people who have ran conventional to many many miles. My uncles 4.3 in a 1990 1500 was given Shell Rotella 15w40, straight out of the 50 gallon drum and went well over 250K before the truck was wrecked.

Bottom line, use a high quality oil and don't look back.

If you want to see oil analysis, I have 3 samples from 20,000K, 30,XXXK, and 60,XXXK. Even with piston slap, no increase in metal from 1st sample.

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#14 snappy

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 09:22 PM

I really dont think that your having problems with the oil. I developed a similar problem near the same area with a Dodge 1500 I had in 2003. The dealer said there wasnt anything wrong. After 3 times going back and forth and finally getting my buddy to check it we discovered the tolerance on the valves was wrong and 1 pushrod was bad. At that time I only had about 26000 on the truck. Finally the dealer tookit in after I complained to Dodge Corporate and they redid the top end. After that no noise.
I am sure you are aware too...by switching back and forth between syn and dino oils can cause spotting on the cylinder walls and other parts of engine maybe something just isnt gettting lubed enough. That just sounded wierd didnt it?

I know this may sound strange to,but it did happen to me when I owned my own trucking company. One of my tractors had a 425 caterpiller in it and when the driver came back with it he told me of pinging at certain rpms. After searching darn near everything it would constantly sound like marbles going around in the engine. Well as it turned out it, the Big Cat ate its own oil filter for lunch and kept spinning the metal braiding around he inside of the filter ,,hahahah of course this was a diesel.
Merry Christmas.... :lol: Jeff G

#15 snakedoctor

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Posted 19 December 2009 - 09:30 PM

Snappy quote.....
I am sure you are aware too...by switching back and forth between syn and dino oils can cause spotting on the cylinder walls and other parts of engine maybe something just isnt gettting lubed enough.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boy I'll bet that syn blend, you know conventional and synthetic blended together will give your cylinders freckles. :lol:


API requires that all oils whether synthetic or conventional be compatible with each other and can be mixed.

From Valvoline's web site....

4.Is it ok to switch back and forth between regular and synthetic motor oil? I heard this causes leaks? Is this true?

Switching between synthetic and conventional oil does not cause problems. Because the oils are compatible, you can switch back and forth as often as you like.

Edited by dlstewart01, 19 December 2009 - 09:56 PM.





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