Couple Looking for Intro to Home Defense

MikeNH · December 27, 2017

Not a fan of any of the .410 revos. The idea of multiple, large-ish projectiles is appealing but they don't penetrate well enough for me to be confident to stop an aggressor, especially bird shot. That'll hurt like hell but it won't kill someone and when it comes to self defense that means it's me or the other guy and I hate losing.

What do you mean by Glocks being a joke tactically?

jogutier · January 6, 2018

On 11/27/2015 at 6:27 AM, Spurshot said:

My brother-in-law and his wife have asked me several times in passing about handguns for home defense. They looked to me because of the many guns I've had. I did some casual IPSC and Steel Challenge shooting many years ago. But I just don't like teaching this particular subject matter, because I'm not a professional home defense expert and I think of home defense as a wholistic subject, not just a gun shooting thing. So I haven't been to forthcoming in offering training. Last night, after dinner, I did show them the difference between a revolver and a semi auto pistol and provided some of the advantages and disadvantages of both.

I'm wondering if any of you have had professional home defense training or know of a quality curriculum in the LA- OC area? I might even be temped to go with them.

I have and still feel that the best home defense is a shotgun due to close quarters. Once you need to chase them through the fields it becomes a AR.

Spurshot · January 7, 2018

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:02 AM, jogutier said:

I have and still feel that the best home defense is a shotgun due to close quarters. Once you need to chase them through the fields it becomes a AR.

I think you may have a hard time convincing a DA and jury the words "chase" and "defense" go together.

While I think a shotgun is a very good home defense firearm for many reasons, it's still has to be aimed accurately as any other firearm at the distances in a home...unless you have a huge home with long shooting lanes. At 15 feet, you can cover the pattern of a cylinder bore 12ga with 00 buck with a coffee cup. Huge patterns covering a door only happen at distances measured in double digit yards...or in the movies, of course.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Spurshot

Chev454ss · January 13, 2018

For "home defense" (HD) one must consider where the rounds will end up if a miss occurs. I have seen wound channels from bird shot at close range and believe me, the dude was a corpse. 4" spread and dead. You don't need 00 buck, and bird shot won't punch through as much material (walls etc.) if you miss. Most people don't have a tricked out shotgun at home either, nor do they practice with it for 1 reason or another. They are heavy for the most part, and if it's a 12 ga. they kick! They are long and unwieldy for the most part.

Handguns? If you choose a handgun you must consider the same issues as with the shotgun. Where will the round end up if you miss. Then there's the issue of practice. You must practice! And how will you get to it? I'm old enough, my sons are long gone, I have no issue of a child getting their hands on one, so I leave one out in easy reach.

There has been much discussion on the use of an AR-15 in .223. If one uses a round that is frangible, over penetration shouldn't be an issue. The .223 is easy to shoot too. Minimal recoil, easy to stay on target, and the length of the stock can be adjusted which is an issue with other long guns. With the AR you have a 16" barrel and with the flash suppressor mine is only 33" before the stock is extended. But in a HD situation you aren't going to take the time to extend your stock. The ammunition manufacturers are all over making rounds for HD use too. Hornady and Winchester are just a couple of names that make reliable ammo for the .223. Whatever your choice, PRACTICE!

But enough of my opinion. When in doubt I like to rely on the experts. MY NRA! Yes, I'm a member and have been for a long time, Life/Benefactor/Golden Eagles, and damn proud to say it.

Here's a link:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion

Edited January 14, 2018 by Chev454ss

swathdiver · January 14, 2018

For you guys old enough to remember, the Teams in Vietnam used duck bill extensions on the end of their Ithaca 37 shotguns for the parakeet ops, one shot would clear out a hooch as the duck bill spread out the shot quickly. They used 2-3/4" shells with #4 buckshot which IMO is much better than and more versatile than 00 buck. Haven't been there in a few years but the UDT/SEAL museum in Fort Pierce used to have a couple on display still. I miss my slam fire Ithaca 37!

Spurshot · January 16, 2018

The issue I have with a 5.56/.223 in the house is the muzzle blast. You guys that live in states where short barreled rifles with suppressors are legal don't have to worry about it. But where I live in the land of fruits and nuts, it's an issue. A high intensity cartridge in a small room will be like a flash-bang grenade.

Nick The Great · January 16, 2018

I worry more about wall penetration if worse comes to worse. I don't plan on shooting in the hallway towards my kids' bedrooms, but you never know.

I feel like that rules out pistols and rifles. I like the idea of a smaller shotgun. Like a 410 or 20 gauge, with a shorter barrel. Especially if I think my wife may have to have it, I don't seen her being comfortable with the 45 or AR in the dark of night . . .

Good video of wall penetrations. (RIP Barry)

sdeeter19555 · January 16, 2018

I alway thought a Judge would be a good home defender, first two slots with #4 bird shot, last three with 45lc...

Steve
2012 2500hd 6.0l

Spurshot · February 5, 2018

On 1/16/2018 at 9:18 AM, Nick The Great said:

I worry more about wall penetration if worse comes to worse. I don't plan on shooting in the hallway towards my kids' bedrooms, but you never know.

I feel like that rules out pistols and rifles. I like the idea of a smaller shotgun. Like a 410 or 20 gauge, with a shorter barrel. Especially if I think my wife may have to have it, I don't seen her being comfortable with the 45 or AR in the dark of night . . .

Good video of wall penetrations. (RIP Barry)

Seems to be a prevalent concern on these gun forums. Rightfully so. But if you are really concerned about this issue with your kids, spend some of your gun money on class 2 wallboard instead of some more toys. It’s a simple solution and not all that much money.

Regarding 410s, I’m a huge fan of them. I have many thousands invested in 410 shotguns. I mean like buy-a-new-car money. ... for bird hunting. I will be the first to say they are not a defensive cartridge. Can it be with slugs? Sure. Still not great. But birdshot is about as poor a defensive load as I can think of.

On pump shotguns, how many of you are proficient with one? Like never short rack, natural pump after firing each time? How about under stress? Not many I bet. Certainly not me, and I have a few for hunting. Darn few that aren’t a combat competition, prolific clay or hunting shooter of pumps is likely to be proficient enough to fire multiple times with a pump at a lifethreat. Semiautomatic shotguns make more sense for the unpracticed or low practiced.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Spurshot

Yonah_Mtn · February 26, 2018

We have a cabin in the mountains of NE Georgia. As there is nothing around us but thick forests and the nearest neighbor is over a mile. So shot after damage through a mile or so of forest is highly doubt able.

When I take the Pitts out to do their thing; I carry a 15+1 9mm. For 4 legged critters (feral hogs, coyotes and a cougar) with trail cams I have them on film. I have an AK with NV. Nothing fancy but it's day or night and with a 5 watt beam or flood IR, range is a lot farther than the treeline.

It is a very remote chance we'd see a home invasion but the critters are a different subject.

Home invasion would happen fast and when one least expects it.

Cowpie · November 10, 2018

For home defense, simple is always better. While I have a wide range of firearms in the home, the one that is by my bed is a Stoeger 12 gauge Coach Gun. Double cylinder bore 20" barrels of #1 buck. Living rural, it is the all around most reliable choice for those things that go bump in the night. 1" per yard pattern spread. Light, quick, natural handling. If that doesn't do the trick, a .45 auto is next. I have 870 pumps and everything from .22 to 30.06 including Marlin and Winchester 30-30's. The Stoeger helps me sleep at night better than all of the other stuff. Works extremely well on men and critters. Easy for my wife to handle if she needs to.

If I primarily relied on pistol ammo to do the job at home, one of the Henry lever actions in .357, .44, or .45 would be my first choice.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Cowpie

Yonah_Mtn · November 10, 2018

I should have stated earlier.. Where you live dictates what you should use as a home defense firearm. As Nick the Great stated and spurshot reaffirmed penetration needs to match your neighborhood. Could be a 9mm might not penetrate a few interior walls; however, how about out a window and into a neighbor's window??

Here, we live in the Chattahoochee NF.. People hunt deer, bear and feral hogs here using ARs and deer rifles.. I shoot a 300 winmag on the property.. Only a 100 yard range; however, knowing ballistics or drop, I sight it in for 200 or 300 and it's on at 200 or 300.

I have have shotguns which I load with slugs because they will stop a black bear. I would not recommend slugs in a residential area; there, bird shot because it doesn't penetrate as a slug or buckshot does.

Cowpie · November 11, 2018

And one thing that also fits in the equation as to why I use a 12 gauge Coach gun at home is that it is one of the most legal firearms in the country, and perception is everything. If for some reason a local DA has a distain for individual gun ownership and wants to make an example of someone, if they end up in court, what looks better..... a double barrel 12 gauge that Matt Dillon would use on an old rerun of Gunsmoke, or the weapons of choice that get used in the latest round of mass shootings. Perception is everything.

While at the same time, a double barrel of buckshot, 00 on up to #4 or even BB shot, whatever one prefers, has stood the test of time. It was reliable and a situation stopper in 1880, and it is still one of the most user friendly, reliable weapons that get the job done in spades in 2018. Buckshot is still used on the modern battlefield. And most who served in Nam either used or someone near them used a shotgun with buckshot. Heck, even the M-79 (later M203) has a buckshot round for that 40mm tube..

Perception is everything. It isn't just the protection from critters or all sorts that is at stake, but also the protection from renegade law enforcement and lawsuits that one has to consider. And if a person is relying on a jury (who the majority are not knowledgeable about firearms) to decide his/her fate in a shooting, not really the best idea to have used a rifle that holds 30 rounds, a pistol that holds 13-17, lasers on the rails, etc and just the term "semi auto" can cause jury bias, even though we all know it really doesn't mean much in the real world. Some people on a jury cannot differentiate between semi auto and full auto. But they can differentiate between a "wicked black rifle" and a good 'ol fashioned splatter gun from an old west story on the History channel.

One must always use some good sense in these matters. Packing is one thing, and the more modern style of firearms are a better choice, but home defense is another deal. And one wants to make sure to everyone sees them as the victim. In court, it is not what is right or wrong, it is about what a slick lawyer can get a judge or jury to believe.

And I feel very comfortable using that same double barrel coach gun for anything that is a threat on my rural property. A coyote will roll quite well when hit with a load of buck.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Cowpie

Yonah_Mtn · November 13, 2018

Another thing I add into the equation is cost.. Even when a shoot is legal, the firearm may be confiscated until the "dust" settles. When my life is on the line; I'm not going to worry about what a jury would decide based on if I used a Rem 742 semi auto 30-06 with those devastating hunting rounds. Should I use FMJ which is for war or hollow points in pistols or revolvers?? I'm sorry but when my life is threatened I won't be considering what firearm I'll use.

A double barrel with buckshot suits your needs. Personally, I have bears and cougars here; so 7 slugs are better than 2 slugs..

You have reasons to justify your choice which works for you.. I have reasons considering all my potential threat scenarios why your reasons might not work for me..

As a 12 gauge double barrel suits your needs, what works for you is fine.. I have a Browning 1897 made in 1898 uses smokeless with 5+1 capacity which has also withstood time.

Browning also designed a lever action shotgun, Model 1897 and 1901 with 5+1 capacity. which I'd like to add to the toy chest. With firearms, I celebrate diversity.

As a former 11B4P or Infantry, NCO, and Airborne who earned a CIB or Combat Infantryman's Badge; I had to learn to accept in combat, SHTF or TEOTWAWKI might result in my demise.

Cowpie · November 18, 2018

On 11/12/2018 at 6:17 PM, Yonah_Mtn said:

Another thing I add into the equation is cost.. Even when a shoot is legal, the firearm may be confiscated until the "dust" settles. When my life is on the line; I'm not going to worry about what a jury would decide based on if I used a Rem 742 semi auto 30-06 with those devastating hunting rounds. Should I use FMJ which is for war or hollow points in pistols or revolvers?? I'm sorry but when my life is threatened I won't be considering what firearm I'll use.

A double barrel with buckshot suits your needs. Personally, I have bears and cougars here; so 7 slugs are better than 2 slugs..

You have reasons to justify your choice which works for you.. I have reasons considering all my potential threat scenarios why your reasons might not work for me..

As a 12 gauge double barrel suits your needs, what works for you is fine.. I have a Browning 1897 made in 1898 uses smokeless with 5+1 capacity which has also withstood time.

Browning also designed a lever action shotgun, Model 1897 and 1901 with 5+1 capacity. which I'd like to add to the toy chest. With firearms, I celebrate diversity.

As a former 11B4P or Infantry, NCO, and Airborne who earned a CIB or Combat Infantryman's Badge; I had to learn to accept in combat, SHTF or TEOTWAWKI might result in my demise.

That is why I preferred something different when I lived in Alaska. Something more for bears, wolverines, etc. And perception about firearms is not what it is like for many folks in the lower 48. Not too many bears in Iowa. Just coyotes and other nighttime critters that can cause a problem at times. #1 buck rolls them all pretty well.

We all did our time. I often wonder about folks who feel the need to express their military resume to make a point. Those were generally the types of folks I couldn't rely on out in Indian country. A CIB just means you showed up.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Cowpie