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Removing emissions controls


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#31 kstruckcountry

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 10:55 PM

A bit? The emissions go up by 40 times or so when you delete the emissions equipment. There is a reason why all these different types of equipment are required to be able to run these engines.
 
Europe has traditionally had more relaxed emissions requirements for diesel, and they are now paying for it. The diesels running everywhere in Europe now create enough smog to block sunlight in metropolitan city centers, and the pollution agencies call it the biggest blunder of EU (besides handling of the 2008 crisis).
 
Anyway, my point is, deleting these trucks is like operating 30-40 trucks every day; the impact is huge. I don't think it's worth it for 1 more MPG, or more bragging HP/TQ numbers.

Source? Your numbers are wrong, per the EPA standards manufacturers were required to meet pre DEF.

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#32 HeliMark

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:05 AM

Thanks for the explanation. Considering DEF hopefully does most of the reduction anyway, disabling EGR (hopefully without having to touch the stock tune) could be a great compromise for us.
 
The perfect mod would fool the truck (without any side-effects) that the EGR should not be opened, but I'm not sure how it could be done. Disabling EGR with a simulator in place of the solenoid plug might not be ideal, if the engine changes the fueling, etc. as well since it now expects the EGR gases in cylinders. I wonder if fooled altitude sensor or something similar could keep it shut without any other adverse effects, but it's hard to know without looking over all the tune tables and what kind of compensation tables the truck comes with. Perhaps someone who tunes these trucks could help on this.

A tuner can just program the ecu to not open the egr. Will not throw a code, and no "modifying" the actual valve. Meaning no plates or deletes. Everything is stock but that one value in the ecu. That is what I will be doing shortly.

Mark

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#33 Cowpie

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:19 AM

Right, Mark.  Doubtful anyone would notice at a dealership.  If one starts playing around with hardware, and that is going to throw a flag up at a dealer.  A simple ECU code change just basically tells the EGR to never open.  There are many situations where it doesn't anyway!  It only opens on certain parameters.  You are just telling it to never open.  You not only keep the engine from eating its own feces, but you save the problems that can occur with not only the EGR valve, but the EGR cooler.  And the later has caused some serious catastrophic engine failures.  When a cooler goes south, it will leak engine coolant into the intake and everyone should have a general idea on how that affects and engine.

 

And the argument about emissions increasing..... well, that would be true as X25 said, if there was no SCR/DEF and DPF going on still. The only way the emissions "might" get to some level as being described would be a total elimination of ALL emissions components, including the ECU emissions coding.  Emissions parameters in the ECU control fuel delivery events and other parameters that cater to reduced emissions.  By eliminating the EGR opening, that is one of many aspects of the emissions system, and will not deliver the sky is falling emissions that was alluded to.  There could be a slight up tick in NOx, but that is about it, and it means nothing to many areas of the country that have little concern with this emissions junk.  My state, for one, doesn't even check emissions or do vehicle inspections of any kind for licensing and renewals.    


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#34 X25

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:00 AM

Source? Your numbers are wrong, per the EPA standards manufacturers were required to meet pre DEF.

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https://www.arb.ca.g...rdev/verdev.htm

Somewhere at this site, you can see that the combined 2011+ diesel emissions systems clear about 97-98% of the PM and NOx emissions, etc. This translates to 30-50 times less emissions, and this is not even taking extra fuel squirted by hot tunes into the account : )

 

 

Right, Mark.  Doubtful anyone would notice at a dealership.  If one starts playing around with hardware, and that is going to throw a flag up at a dealer.  A simple ECU code change just basically tells the EGR to never open.  There are many situations where it doesn't anyway!  It only opens on certain parameters.  You are just telling it to never open.  You not only keep the engine from eating its own feces, but you save the problems that can occur with not only the EGR valve, but the EGR cooler.  And the later has caused some serious catastrophic engine failures.  When a cooler goes south, it will leak engine coolant into the intake and everyone should have a general idea on how that affects and engine.

 

And the argument about emissions increasing..... well, that would be true as X25 said, if there was no SCR/DEF and DPF going on still. The only way the emissions "might" get to some level as being described would be a total elimination of ALL emissions components, including the ECU emissions coding.  Emissions parameters in the ECU control fuel delivery events and other parameters that cater to reduced emissions.  By eliminating the EGR opening, that is one of many aspects of the emissions system, and will not deliver the sky is falling emissions that was alluded to.  There could be a slight up tick in NOx, but that is about it, and it means nothing to many areas of the country that have little concern with this emissions junk.  My state, for one, doesn't even check emissions or do vehicle inspections of any kind for licensing and renewals.    

Modifying the stock tune could void warranty, though. I wish there could be an easy way to avoid getting the engine to ever run it, while not touching the tune. I would by no means touch any other emissions systems, but more I read about EGR, more I feel that this system might even be removed altogether in future engines anyway.


Edited by X25, 11 January 2017 - 02:01 AM.


#35 Cowpie

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 03:10 AM

The key thing though, is what is being modified.  Where the dealer or OEM looks is at hp and torque modifications that are outside the stock engine parameters. A small code change that tells the ECU to not engage the EGR, it would take specifically looking for that for anyone to figure out what had been done.  As I stated, there are parameters already in the stock ECU tuning that tell the EGR not to open under certain conditions.  All one is doing is adjusting the parameter so that the condition for the ECU to open the EGR is never met.  You really have to really "beat the weeds" in the code to figure out that had been changed.

 

As opposed to totally removing the EGR, placing a physical block, or some other hardware change?  Which do you think would be easiest to detect by the OEM?  And this is where they would look first, as that is what most folks think to do about the EGR.  

 

I used a ECU code change to shut off EGR in a couple of diesels (not Dmax), and the engines got hooked up to dealer diagnostics several times and nothing was shown that any code had been changed.  As it hadn't. Only the parameter variable had been changed so that there was never a condition that the EGR would open.  The actual coding for the EGR operation was never touched.   


Edited by Cowpie, 11 January 2017 - 03:11 AM.

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#36 X25

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:02 AM

I really don't know much about these trucks' ECUs. If this was, say, a smart phone, the operating system packages would be digitally signed, so if you changed the ROM files, even by one digit, it would show. Anyway, you might be right and they might not be able to detect except the flash count (which they can't say much about unless you do a hundred flashes). I am certainly going to be looking around for a solution.



#37 kstruckcountry

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 11:57 AM

Lol even the US EPA doesn't stretch the truth as much as CARB. I think tuning a truck to run dirty on purpose is stupid, but even with a nasty tune, a deleted truck will run more efficiently than the stock configuration. Ask anyone who has deleted. Might have something to do with the filtration system shooting fuel into the exhaust, or the constriction of an engine with EGR, DPF, and SCR.

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Edited by kstruckcountry, 11 January 2017 - 11:58 AM.

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#38 X25

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:42 PM

Efficient and clean (emissions) are two different things. Running dirty reduces emissions; not the other way around. It's not feces we feed; it's fart : P

 

Looks like there was a huge gap between efficient and clean, and the new systems seem to bring them together much closer. The latest engines are much cleaner, and yet they are very efficient, too. It looks pretty similar to the gas emissions that evolved over the decades, even though it will never be as simple as gas, since we're essentially burning oil.

 

I for one, am grateful that I can have a monster engine at 445HP 910lb.ft, while keeping the emissions very low.






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