just trying to confirm: is O2 sensor fault tied to declining battery p

working on it · March 21, 2017

I just had my Walmart Everstart Maxx 78S battery die. My '04 Silverado 2500HD sits for weeks at a time, while I drive my '09 HHR Panel, or not at all, being retired and not all that active at times. I've been keeping all my vehicles on smart trickle charger/maintainers for years, so they'll be ready to run when I am. My HHR battery lasted for 7.5 years, until the charger fried it (while sitting for 11 months, waiting for me to repair multiple issues). Anyway, the Silverado's battery lasted the longest, 10.5 years, and went flat on me in just two days, while hooking up and testing lighting on one of my trailers (I tested for many hours, making new cables and installing new lights). It won't charge to 12vdc now.
I wanted to confirm that my alternator wasn't at fault (after confirming that the battery was bad), so I used the last juice it had to start up, to run the alternator test with my Innova 3100i scantool. While running the test, the 6.0L started to stumble a bit, until I kept the RPMs steady at 2k, for the test. I also got the engine light, and the scantool showed 4 faults pending, current, history, and MIL. All were P0031, I think. I accidently cleared the codes by hitting the wrong button (I dropped my glasses).
I had previously gotten the P0031 code two months before, when making several stops and restarts while shopping (knowing my battery was not long for this world, I try to not do that between trickle charging sessions).
I suspect that the P0031 O2 sensor heater code was set not by a bad sensor, but by low power to the ECM (and sensors), caused by the failing battery. I've read somewhere that the - Bank 1, Sensor 1- O2 sensor is the first item on the ECM's checklist, and if the power is flaky, then the ECM reports that item as faulty.[*] I'm going to get a new battery first, then drive it for a few GM drive cycles, to see if the codes reappear, before I get an upstream O2 sensor to replace it. Am I reasonably correct in this hypothesis, or am I mistaken?

O_J_Simpson · March 21, 2017

First starting point is don't get another Walmart battery. They were once good but now are junk.

Formulabruce · March 21, 2017

1. I agree with OJ /\

2. Alternator testing should be done at idle 7-800

3. Unhook battery and put a "Toaster" on it Autozone will do this free

4. You can revive a dead battery that young by emptying it, and putting in a baking soda/water solution, change for 6 hours on 3 amps , then rinse, flush with Distilled water, then add new distilled water and acid , recharge for 5 hours on 2 amps.

5. Back to the Parasitic loss. I have found that the "Timer circuit" , which involves the factory Radio/clock ( yes I said that) can cause a battery drain. Also a Alternator can cause it too, and still work.

6. I am sure you know how to rack down a parasitic loss, but at least check that voltage ( on a good meter, at battery) with EVERYTHING turned on, and run a trickle charger.

7. The Ecm will be unable to get a voltage drop sensor test done if it doesnt have 5 volts, and It doesnt have a code for the battery or charging system really, so it fails at its first task. Battery has to be really weak for this ..

good luck !

working on it · March 21, 2017

1. I agree with OJ /\

2. Alternator testing should be done at idle 7-800

3. Unhook battery and put a "Toaster" on it Autozone will do this free

4. You can revive a dead battery that young by emptying it, and putting in a baking soda/water solution, change for 6 hours on 3 amps , then rinse, flush with Distilled water, then add new distilled water and acid , recharge for 5 hours on 2 amps.

5. Back to the Parasitic loss. I have found that the "Timer circuit" , which involves the factory Radio/clock ( yes I said that) can cause a battery drain. Also a Alternator can cause it too, and still work.

6. I am sure you know how to rack down a parasitic loss, but at least check that voltage ( on a good meter, at battery) with EVERYTHING turned on, and run a trickle charger.

7. The Ecm will be unable to get a voltage drop sensor test done if it doesnt have 5 volts, and It doesnt have a code for the battery or charging system really, so it fails at its first task. Battery has to be really weak for this ..

good luck !

1. Doesn't Johnson Controls still make the MAXX battery for them? They're the most reliable I've found. My other options are a $93 Bosch @ Pep Boys on sale, $99 Exide Nascar Select @ my Tractor Supply nearby, or a more expensive Interstate Megatron2 @ a Firestone (I'm sure they'll jack up the $99 sale price when I get there).
2. I followed the 2000 rpm requested by the 3100i scantool alternator test feature. It does a 20-second countdown, only if I maintain 2k or slightly over. Under 2k, it stops and starts again.
3. I did the "toaster" after charging it, the night before. It barely had 12v, and said it was deep in the weak range, prior to the test.The load test dropped it to Bad. I charged it all night before the alternator test.
4. I've revived many batteries before, de-sulfating with pulsing chargers (I most recently revived my trailer's Optima last year, and my wife's trailer's Exide deep-cycle before that- both were under 8 volts). I think I could try on this one, but at almost 11 years old, what's the point?
5. The only other (than my Pioneer radio's memory/clock) parasitic drain I have is the 400-watt inverter hooked up to the battery; it drained this battery years ago, before I started the full-time trickle/maintainer regimen. (I overlooked a hooked-up inverter in my trailer, before I starting charging it too; that's why it drained the Optima.
6. Battery needs to be charged first, to run the parasitic-loss test, but I've already done it twice in the last year, with no new losses. It doesn't look to be a problem now, just a clapped-out old battery.
7. You answered my question there!; my really weak battery is causing the ECM to be "failing at its' first task", while running its' tests. Thanks Formulabruce. I'll get a strong battery before I replace the O2 sensor.

dewfpo · March 21, 2017

Last month I just got rid of the original AC Delco battery in my truck after 12 years 2 months. I too keep it on a maintainer/desulfator when not in use. I only use it every 4-6 weeks so I have quick connects set up for the maintainer/battery. I bought an Exide at Costco last month. I can't remember how much it was but it was in the range you are talking about.

A fully charged battery should show 12.7 volts ~ 8 hrs after it's last use. That doesn't tell you capacity though. Hooking up the toaster only takes a second and will tell you pretty quickly if the battery is, well 'toast', and they are cheap.

What voltage are you reading after an initial start? It should be around 14.5-14.7V at first.

DEWFPO (also retired and also drops my damned glasses occasionally, usually on rocks or concrete. Getting old sucks).

Coby7 · March 21, 2017

03-04 are also known for the instrument panel to fail and remain on after key is removed. These will usually kill a battery within 3 days. But if your battery was 10 years old and lost a cell then it is unable to provide the regulated 11.0 volts to the sensors and the ECM will detect a fault at the first HO² heater test and it will fail and set a code, on our trucks it is usually P0031. It may set a few more codes if the ECM is in closed loop. Meaning if the engine was already hot at start-up. OP has the new battery fixed your issues?

Formulabruce · March 21, 2017

Coby7 has an Excellent point! I have seen this problem first hand..

Little on Batteries.

Older batteries have less CCA than new ones. This is because they have more 'space between the plates". This also means they LAST LONGER.

Reviving an old battery may not seem as useless as one may think at the initially.

Proof.. New batteries have a 3 year MAX warranty, batteries 10 years old had a 5 year warranty ( great example is Sears Gold Diehard)

Most peoples trucks do NOT need the advertised 900+ CCA, and the stock battery at 600 was fine. The makers went and put in more plates, yet kept batteries same size, and there ya go, shorted plates.... Its crazy

I have run inverters, and I have a huge deep cycle battery for my 9000# Warn Winch. That battery is 12 years old and is fine....

Just some info tossing out there

working on it · March 22, 2017

A fully charged battery should show 12.7 volts ~ 8 hrs after it's last use. That doesn't tell you capacity though. Hooking up the toaster only takes a second and will tell you pretty quickly if the battery is, well 'toast', and they are cheap.

dewfpo- I did use my "toaster" (as answered above, to Formulabruce). It's a little too late to get a good reading after an initial start, since the bad battery is skewing the readings.

Currently (double-entendre), I am using my Schumacher XCS 15 charger on the battery. It's the same charger I used to de-sulfate and gradually revive the last two batteries that I saved. I start out with high rate charge, until it shuts off at 100% charge, switches (automatically) to it's maintenance mode (2 amps); then I manually switch it to slow rate at 6 amps, and do the same. Repeatedly. But, Its not looking good, because 10 minutes after each charge, the battery reads 10.8-10.9 vdc.
I went to the XCS 15, because it desulfates as well as giving a higher charge rate, which the smaller chargers I use cannot. I have been using a Battery Tender for daily charging of this truck, a BatteryMinder (which can also desulfate, that's why its on my seldom used trailer) for my squareback trailer (semi-off road, semi-teardrop style), a Duralast DL-1.5 on my HHR, and a Schumacher XMI-5 on the reserve truck, a '98 GMC. My wife's car had a Black and Decker charging it, but drove off without un hooking it, so I haven't replaced it yet (she did that before, on the GMC, too).
I'll try off and on for a few days, until the weekend, when I have to go shopping anyway, and to get a new battery, I'm sure. I am biding my time, because the wife is visiting friends all over the North, and usually spends buckets of money...I'll get a $100 battery if she does, and a $200 AGM, if she doesn't. HaHa! I know she will....

working on it · March 23, 2017

dewfpo- I did use my "toaster" (as answered above, to Formulabruce). It's a little too late to get a good reading after an initial start, since the bad battery is skewing the readings.

Currently (double-entendre), I am using my Schumacher XCS 15 charger on the battery. It's the same charger I used to de-sulfate and gradually revive the last two batteries that I saved. I start out with high rate charge, until it shuts off at 100% charge, switches (automatically) to it's maintenance mode (2 amps); then I manually switch it to slow rate at 6 amps, and do the same. Repeatedly. But, Its not looking good, because 10 minutes after each charge, the battery reads 10.8-10.9 vdc.

I went to the XCS 15, because it desulfates as well as giving a higher charge rate, which the smaller chargers I use cannot. I have been using a Battery Tender for daily charging of this truck, a BatteryMinder (which can also desulfate, that's why its on my seldom used trailer) for my squareback trailer (semi-off road, semi-teardrop style), a Duralast DL-1.5 on my HHR, and a Schumacher XMI-5 on the reserve truck, a '98 GMC. My wife's car had a Black and Decker charging it, but drove off without un hooking it, so I haven't replaced it yet (she did that before, on the GMC, too).

I'll try off and on for a few days, until the weekend, when I have to go shopping anyway, and to get a new battery, I'm sure. I am biding my time, because the wife is visiting friends all over the North, and usually spends buckets of money...I'll get a $100 battery if she does, and a $200 AGM, if she doesn't. HaHa! I know she will....

I give up trying to revive this battery. After several days, letting the XCS 15 charger do it's best, I cannot get the battery above 10.8 "resting" volts. I have now resumed shopping online for the best battery/warranty/deal/availability combination I can get locally. And, by best, I mean best non-AGM, because I see that the wife is spending as usual, and I might be facing a veterinary bill, if I can't doctor my devoted Dorkie back to health (I think she got a brown recluse bite). She's doing better, after two days with a fever, and swollen throat area, but you never know....

First starting point is don't get another Walmart battery. They were once good but now are junk.

I am still leaning towards the Walmart Everstart MAXX battery; a battery sourcing guide I found says that the Maxx is still made by Johnson Controls, and is only a few dollars more than the others I am considering (so far), it has a 5 year warranty (in stages), and I can get a replacement practically anywhere in America, even overnight (a lot are open 24-hrs), even if the Maxx isn't the same quality as before.

O_J_Simpson · March 23, 2017

I give up trying to revive this battery. After several days, letting the XCS 15 charger do it's best, I cannot get the battery above 10.8 "resting" volts. I have now resumed shopping online for the best battery/warranty/deal/availability combination I can get locally. And, by best, I mean best non-AGM, because I see that the wife is spending as usual, and I might be facing a veterinary bill, if I can't doctor my devoted Dorkie back to health (I think she got a brown recluse bite). She's doing better, after two days with a fever, and swollen throat area, but you never know....my pitiful pup.png

I am still leaning towards the Walmart Everstart MAXX battery; a battery sourcing guide I found says that the Maxx is still made by Johnson Controls, and is only a few dollars more than the others I am considering (so far), it has a 5 year warranty (in stages), and I can get a replacement practically anywhere in America, even overnight (a lot are open 24-hrs), even if the Maxx isn't the same quality as before.

Best of luck. We found that warranty next to impossible to use with the changes. If it makes "some" cranking amps, the warranty won't cover it, even if it won't start the vehicle.

working on it · March 23, 2017

From what I'm reading now, most of the good battery warranties (i.e. Sears Diehard, WM Everstart Maxx, etc..) that state replacement dates are getting pretty strict about deadlines & details. Pro-rating was always a crap-shoot, where you had to be a "I won't take an no" kind of guy to get good results from dickering with the clerk, at most places. they would and will try to short-change you. That's just the business landscape out there. I figure that I win some of theses battles, and have lost others; so, I'm just going to stick with my familiarity with either Walmart, Sears, or Autozone batteries. But, then again, AAP and Pep Boys have 25 & 30% off deals that I might try....

working on it · March 24, 2017

I am still leaning towards the Walmart Everstart MAXX battery; a battery sourcing guide I found says that the Maxx is still made by Johnson Controls, and is only a few dollars more than the others I am considering (so far), it has a 5 year warranty (in stages), and I can get a replacement practically anywhere in America, even overnight (a lot are open 24-hrs), even if the Maxx isn't the same quality as before.

I had to go shopping today, an my first stop was Walmart, and...yep, I did buy the Everstart Maxx 78S, which is the exact same (externally) as the old one. And only $94 (right about where the "deals" were). It also says that it is a Johnson Controls product (on a label on the battery), so at least I know it "should" be the same. Time will tell. I'll put it in later, perhaps tomorrow a.m., because it rained all day and now it's humid as heck. I'm in no hurry, now that it's a done deal.Thanks to all who joined in on the thread.

working on it · June 1, 2017

I suspect that the P0031 O2 sensor heater code was set not by a bad sensor, but by low power to the ECM (and sensors), caused by the failing battery. I've read somewhere that the - Bank 1, Sensor 1- O2 sensor is the first item on the ECM's checklist, and if the power is flaky, then the ECM reports that item as faulty.[*] I'm going to get a new battery first, then drive it for a few GM drive cycles, to see if the codes reappear, before I get an upstream O2 sensor to replace it. Am I reasonably correct in this hypothesis, or am I mistaken?

It's been over two months since my battery died, and when the "bank 1, sensor 1" fault was set. Since then, I replaced the battery, cleared the codes, and took a long trip. Two days after I came back home, the same fault code(s) set again, and I re-cleared them, refusing to accept the codes as correct.

After two more "clearing codes episodes", and inspecting the upstream O2 sensor that should be setting the codes (I found nothing wrong with it), I decided that I'd just change it out with a new sensor. I did so, today, and cleared the codes again, before starting the truck. I ran it thirty minutes, and no CEL appeared, but I will have to drive it awhile, performing the infamous "GM Drive Cycle" (endless loop- after 8 months of driving my HHR, to reset the monitors, it still hasn't completed the EVAP test, despite replacing all components, twice). I used a Bosch O2 sensor, with factory connectors, which took only 5 minutes to replace. If no codes are set again, then I'll be kicking myself for avoiding the change of sensors, for so long. But, if the same code re-appears, with a new sensor installed, then I'll have to find out where the system has gone awry. Crossing my fingers that it will be OK, now.

carkhz316 · June 1, 2017

$20 says the instrument cluster is the cause of the parasitic drain. Easy fix too.

Formulabruce · June 1, 2017

A Bit on Chargers

1. Any older than 5 years "trickle charger" that has some weight to it , maybe 1.5 lbs should NOT be LEFT on a battery for months. Even if it says its "smart". These WILL actually over charge and cause Sulphating ( sp) of the plates.

2. A Good "charger" would be a very light weight model that has 1.5 MAX, no 6-12 volt switch and has a "Pulsing" charged light, once battery is charged. This type Does in fact shut off at 12.6 volts, No over charging, Less batteries killed.

3. The instrument cluster can leak down. If it all works well and the truck timers are working for lights, It still can have a "leak". This is due to the use of silver solder, which can corrode on the circuit board and short out to other solder joints, or cause a "cold solder joint"