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5.7 wont run after changing intake gaskets


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#1 RustyW

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 11:15 PM

Hi,

I hope someone can help me. My Suburban wont run worth a d**n after changing the intake gaskets and ODB reports a random misfire and #4 misfire.

Sorry for the long post but I'll try and get all pertinant info in.

K1500 w/ 5.7 vortec started leaking water out the weephole on the water pump so I changed it. When that was changed it started leaking water out the intake manifold gasket at the rear of the driver side.

When pulling the intake I read through the distributor section and it seemed pretty fool-proof so I didn't mark anything and just pulled the distributer intending to time it from scratch.

I got it all back together. The good news is it doesn't leek water but it doesnt run worth a darn either. The ODBII scanner is reading p0300 random misfires and sometimes a p0304 #4 misfire.

My timing procedure was to

a. leave number one spark plug hanging by a thread
b. turn engine till I heard the compression squeezing past the plug.
c. turn engine a little more till the timing mark on the balancer aligned w/ V mark on timing chain cover (TDC, right?)
d. line up dimple on distributor gear with white mark on distributer
e. turn oil pump with screw driver till try to get rotor pointed at the "8" on the distributor housing.
f. repeat d and e many times till successful.
g. complete assembly process.

After assembly and checking timing with a light it showed nice and steady about 5-6 BTDC.

The only new parts added were the gaskets and a rotor and cap.

No water in the oil. And no oil in the water.

I've triple and quadruple checked all electrical connections, firing orders, spark plug wires etc.

When I couldt find anything wrong I pulled the intake again to ensure it was seated properly. There was some 'rustiness' on the cylinder head just in front of the #4 intake where the coolant from the intake makes contact that wasn't present at the other 3 similar locations.

Other than that everything looked fine. I put it all back together and ODB reports the same errors. I drove it *limping* around the block and as soon as it heats to operating temperature it starts pinging like mad when in gear. It also seems to be getting far hotter on the driver side than the passenger side even though the temp guage shows 190ish.

This has been my first adventture into Vortec's so ANY input would be GREATLY appreciated.

I really hope it's something stupid like timing is 180 off but I don't see how.

Many Thanks,
Rusty

#2 GM-Tech

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 11:50 PM

I read through the distributor section and it seemed pretty fool-proof so I didn't mark anything and just pulled the distributer intending to time it from scratch. 



BIG mistake. Sorry the pictures don't carry over with this, but here's the excruciatingly full procedure. You want procedure #2 in this document...

---------------

Distributor Replacement (5.7L)
Removal Procedure
Notice: There are two procedures available to install the distributor.Use Installation Procedure 1 when the crankshaft has NOT been rotated from the original position.Use Installation Procedure 2 when any of the following components are removed:

The intake manifold

The cylinder head

The camshaft

The timing chain or sprockets

The complete engine

If the malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) turns on and DTC P1345 sets after installing the distributor, this indicates an incorrectly installed distributor.Engine damage or distributor damage may occur. Use Procedure 2 in order to install the distributor.

Turn OFF the ignition switch. Remove the spark plug wires from the distributor cap.
- Twist each spark plug 1/2 turn.

- Pull only on the boot in order to remove the wire from the distributor cap.

Remove the electrical connector from the base of the distributor.



Remove the two screws that hold the distributor cap to the housing.
Discard the screws.
Remove the distributor cap from the housing.



Use a grease pencil in order to note the position of the rotor in relation to the distributor housing (1).
Mark the distributor housing and the intake manifold with a grease pencil.



Remove the mounting clamp hold down bolt.
Remove the distributor.



As the distributor is being removed from the engine, watch the rotor move in a counter-clockwise direction about 42 degrees. This will appear as slightly more than one clock position.
Note the position of the rotor segment.
Place a second mark on the base of the distributor. This will aid in achieving proper rotor alignment during the distributor installation.
The second mark on the distributor housing is identified in the graphic as number 2.
Installation Procedure 1




If installing a new distributor assembly, place two marks on the new distributor housing in the same location as the two marks on the original housing.
Remove the new distributor cap, if necessary.
Align the rotor with mark made at location 2.



Guide the distributor into the engine.
Align the hole in the distributor hold-down base over the mounting hole in the intake manifold.



As the distributor is being installed, observe the rotor moving in a clockwise direction about 42 degrees.
Once the distributor is completely seated, the rotor segment should be aligned with the mark on the distributor base in location number 1.
- If the rotor segment is not aligned with the number 1 mark, the driven gear teeth and the camshaft have meshed one or more teeth out of alignment.

- In order to correct this condition, remove the distributor and reinstall it.





Notice: Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.

Install the distributor mounting clamp bolt.

Tighten
Tighten the distributor clamp bolt to 25 Nm (18 lb ft).





Install the distributor cap.
Install two NEW distributor cap screws.

Tighten
Tighten the screws to 2.4 Nm (21 lb in).

Install the electrical connector to the distributor.
Install the spark plug wires to the distributor cap.



Install the ignition coil wire. The wire must not touch anything like the dip stick. Rubbing will make a ground/short after time of use.



For V8 engines, connect a scan tool.
Monitor the Camshaft Retard Offset value. Refer to Engine Controls Camshaft Retard Offset Adjustment.
Important: If the Malfunction Indicator lamp is turned on after installing the distributor, and a DTC P1345 is found, the distributor has been installed incorrectly.
Refer to Installation Procedure 2 for proper distributor installation.


Installation Procedure 2




Important: Rotate the number 1 cylinder to Top Dead Center (TDC) of the compression stroke. The engine front cover has 2 alignment tabs and the crankshaft balancer has 2 alignment marks (spaced 90 degrees apart) which are used for positioning number 1 piston at top dead center (TDC). With the piston on the compression stroke and at top dead center, the crankshaft balancer alignment mark (1) must align with the engine front cover tab (2) and the crankshaft balancer alignment mark (4) must align with the engine front cover tab (3).


Rotate the crankshaft balancer clockwise until the alignment marks on the crankshaft balancer are aligned with the tabs on the engine front cover and the number 1 piston is at top dead center of the compression stroke.



Align white paint mark on the bottom stem of the distributor, and the pre-drilled indent hole in the bottom of the gear (3).

Notice: The ignition system distributor driven gear and rotor may be installed in multiple positions. In order to avoid mistakes, mark the distributor on the following components in order to ensure the same mounting position upon reassembly:

The distributor driven gear

The distributor shaft

The rotor holes

Installing the driven gear 180 degrees out of alignment, or locating the rotor in the wrong holes, will cause a no-start condition. Premature engine wear or damage may result.

With the gear in this position, the rotor segment should be positioned as shown for a V6 engine (1) or V8 engine (2).

- The alignment will not be exact.

- If the driven gear is installed incorrectly, the dimple will be approximately 180 degrees opposite of the rotor segment when the gear is installed in the distributor.


Using a long screw driver, align the oil pump drive shaft to the drive tab of the distributor.

Guide the distributor into the engine. Ensure that the spark plug towers are perpendicular to the centerline of the engine.

Once the distributor is fully seated, the rotor segment should be aligned with the pointer cast into the distributor base.

- This pointer may have a 6 cast into it, indicating that the distributor is to be used on a 6 cylinder engine or a 8 cast into it, indicating that the distributor is to be used on a 8 cylinder engine.

- If the rotor segment does not come within a few degrees of the pointer, the gear mesh between the distributor and the camshaft may be off a tooth or more.

- If this is the case, repeat the procedure again in order to achieve proper alignment.


Notice: Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.

Install the distributor mounting clamp bolt.

Tighten
Tighten the distributor clamp bolt to 25 Nm (18 lb ft).


Install the distributor cap.
Install two NEW distributor cap screws.

Tighten
Tighten the screws to 2.4 Nm (21 lb in).

Install the electrical connector to the distributor.
Install the spark plug wires to the distributor cap.



Install the ignition coil wire. The wire must not touch anything like the dip stick. Rubbing will make a ground/short after time of use.



For V8 engines, connect a scan tool.

Monitor the Camshaft Retard Offset value. Refer to Engine Controls Camshaft Retard Offset Adjustment.

Important: If the Malfunction Indicator lamp is turned on after installing the distributor, and a DTC P1345 is found, the distributor has been installed incorrectly.


Refer to Installation Procedure 2 for proper distributor installation.

#3 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:24 AM

Many thanks for the input. Procedure 2 looks exactly like what I did with one exception.

Important: Rotate the number 1 cylinder to Top Dead Center (TDC) of the compression stroke. The engine front cover has 2 alignment tabs and the crankshaft balancer has 2 alignment marks (spaced 90 degrees apart) which are used for positioning number 1 piston at top dead center (TDC). With the piston on the compression stroke and at top dead center, the crankshaft balancer alignment mark (1) must align with the engine front cover tab (2) and the crankshaft balancer alignment mark (4) must align with the engine front cover tab (3).

I've only seen one mark on the balancer and only one "tab" on the front cover.

Looking down from the drivers side just to the left of the power steering/ac mount I can see a V mark tab on the front cover. As soon as I heard the compression stroke I continued turning the engine and put the first mark I saw on the balancer on that tab.

Where's the other one located? (I'll look again as soon as the sun comes up though!)

#4 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:38 AM

Also, I just checked my balancer and I can only find one mark.

Is it possible mine only has one mark and one tab on the front cover or am I completely missing the others?

I don't suppose you have the procedure for the camshaft retard offset do you? My Chiltons CD-ROM manual makes no mention of it.

Though next to retard they should have a picture of me!

#5 GM-Tech

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:38 AM

The classic tab towards the top/middle of the timing cover is pretty obvious, but the second "tab" is not so much a tab as it is just a part of the lower part of the timing cover.

Oh heck, a picture is worth a thousand words. 1 & 2 is the one set of marks you need to line up, 3 & 4 is the other set...


Posted Image

#6 GM-Tech

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:40 AM

If you thought #4 was actually #1 then #1 would not be in sight and you'd be waaayyyy out of time.

#7 GM-Tech

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:45 AM

I don't suppose you have the procedure for the camshaft retard offset do you?  My Chiltons CD-ROM manual makes no mention of it.



You need a scan tool to read the offset, but here ya go...

-----------------------------

Camshaft Retard Offset Adjustment

Test Procedure
You cannot adjust the ignition timing. You may need to adjust the distributor in order to prevent crossfire. To insure proper alignment of the distributor, perform the following:

With the ignition OFF, connect the scan tool.
Start the engine. Allow the engine to idle until the engine reaches the normal operating temperature.
Important: The Cam Retard Offset reading will not be accurate below 1,000 RPM.


Increase the engine speed to 1,000 RPM while performing the following steps.
Use the scan tool in order to monitor the Cam Retard Offset.
If the Cam Retard indicates a value of 0 degrees, the distributor is properly adjusted.
If the Cam Retard does not indicate 0 degrees, the distributor must be adjusted.
Adjustment Procedure




With the engine OFF, slightly loosen the distributor hold down bolt.
Important: The Cam Retard Offset reading will not be accurate below 1,000 RPM.


Start the engine and raise the engine speed to 1,000 RPM.
Use the scan tool in order to monitor the Cam Retard Offset.
Rotate the distributor as follows:
- To compensate for a negative reading, rotate the distributor in the counterclockwise direction.

- To compensate for a positive reading, rotate the distributor in the clockwise direction.

Repeat step 4 until 0 degrees is obtained.
Turn OFF the ignition.
Notice: Use the correct fastener in the correct location. Replacement fasteners must be the correct part number for that application. Fasteners requiring replacement or fasteners requiring the use of thread locking compound or sealant are identified in the service procedure. Do not use paints, lubricants, or corrosion inhibitors on fasteners or fastener joint surfaces unless specified. These coatings affect fastener torque and joint clamping force and may damage the fastener. Use the correct tightening sequence and specifications when installing fasteners in order to avoid damage to parts and systems.

Tighten the distributor hold-down bolt.

Tighten
Tighten the bolt to 3 Nm (25 lb ft).

Start the engine.
Raise the engine speed to 1,000 RPM and view the Camshaft Retard Offset.

#8 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:51 AM

The classic tab towards the top/middle of the timing cover is pretty obvious, but the second "tab" is not so much a tab as it is just a part of the lower part of the timing cover.

Oh heck, a picture is worth a thousand words.  1 & 2 is the one set of marks you need to line up, 3 & 4 is the other set...


Posted Image

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Many thanks! From the looks of that diagram I turned it far enough to get 4 lined up with 2. Hopefully that's the case and I don't really have just the one set of marks. I'll dig in in the morning and report results back. Cross your fingers!

#9 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:24 AM

No joy.

My balancer only has one mark on it.

I did find the 2nd mark (3 in diagram) on the engine cover so I pulled the distributer, loosened #1, turned engine till air came out of #1, kept turning till timing mark was aligned with #3 mark, rotated oil pump drive with screw driver until I could get the roter pointed at the "8" on the distributor housing.

Now it wont start at all.

:shakehead:

With the single balancer mark aligned with the #2 tab a timing light showed the timing right around 5-6 BTDC through a range of rpms.

Could it be that the barely running, ODB p0300, and weirdness of getting hotter on the driver side bank than the passenger side NOT be a timing issue?

#10 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:31 PM

I put the timing back where it was and it runs, barely, and the scanner is still reporting a #4 misfire and a throttle position sensor error. the TPS error is new.
Interestingly it's NOT reporting the random multiple misfire.

R.E. Cam Retard Offset - Does that require some special scanner? I rented an Acton from Autozone and it doesn't appear to have the ability to monitor much. I think it just reports registered errors.

#11 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 12:57 PM

I just tried swapping the #2 and #4 wires then plugs in stages. Scanner still reporting a #4 misfire for both the wire swap and the plug swap.

It still BARELY runs and pings heavily under any load.

It still getting way hotter on driver side than passenger side.

I miss my Scout!

#12 GM-Tech

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 04:03 PM

No joy.

My balancer only has one mark on it. 



Sorry. The one important thing which you neglected to mention and I neglected to ask was what model year is your Suburban?

As for the cam retard... I don't know anything about aftermarket scanners. We use only the GM Tech 2 scanner, which obviously has all the functions GM would want us to perform on any vehicle.

I don't get the part about one side running hotter than the other. How would you know? Is it THAT noticeable?

#13 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 06:47 PM

No joy.

My balancer only has one mark on it.



Sorry. The one important thing which you neglected to mention and I neglected to ask was what model year is your Suburban?

As for the cam retard... I don't know anything about aftermarket scanners. We use only the GM Tech 2 scanner, which obviously has all the functions GM would want us to perform on any vehicle.

I don't get the part about one side running hotter than the other. How would you know? Is it THAT noticeable?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Heh. 1999.

And it's THAT noticeable. Just putting my hand down near the exhaust manifolds you can feel the difference after less than 5 minutes of run time. The guage stops around 190ish but it seems like it's hotter on the driver side even after reaching operating temperature.

Edited by RustyW, 04 September 2005 - 06:50 PM.


#14 RustyW

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 06:59 PM

The year / time of production what-not may hover between 1999 and 1998. I've got a hard copy Chiltons manual in which some things are correct and a 1998 CD rom manual in which the engine seems to be correct.

#15 GM-Tech

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Posted 04 September 2005 - 10:04 PM

I did use 1999 for that image of the balancer with the two marks. I don't believe a 98 has two grooves in the balancer, but I couldn't say if an early production 1999 would be that way. It seems so if you've examined the balancer and can only find one groove.

I'm sorry, at this point, I don't know what else to tell you. Obviously, if it ran fine before you took it apart then it's something you didn't get back together correctly, and the distributor is about all you could screw up.




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