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how else to stiffen things up?


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I looked at them on TruckSpring .com a long while back (where I bought my Timbrens ultimately), maybe they ship to Canada?

 

My guess is that once you get into the higher rated ones, the ride is going to start feeling just like a Timbren.

 

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I looked at them on TruckSpring .com a long while back (where I bought my Timbrens ultimately), maybe they ship to Canada?

 

My guess is that once you get into the higher rated ones, the ride is going to start feeling just like a Timbren.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

They also only list the SSR-209-40 on their website.

 

And at ~$230 USD before shipping and duties, the ones I found would be a lot more than the same one on Amazon.ca.

 

Might toss Superspring an email.

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Going back to this, has anyone found a supplier of SumoSprings in Canada that carries the higher duty parts?

 

I can find the SSR-209-40 on Amazon and other online retailers, as well as at Lordco ($50 more), but I can't find anyone who lists the other 2 that sells to Canada. Looking on Amazon.com, the supplier there does not ship into Canada.

 

And do I need to worry about it, or just get the 1,000 lb ones? The more I read on them vs. Timbrens, the more I like these and the price seems pretty good.

 

try here http://actiontrucks.com/lookup.html?supercat=1

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Thanks, but the site is not a lot of help.

 

The 1,000 lb are $393 and the other 2 are call for availability. Rockauto has the 1000 lb for $211 Cdn.

 

Still wondering if I need to worry of if the 1000 lb are enough.

 

Time to head to rv.net, but I do appreciate the help.

Edited by gmckenzie
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If anyone is interested, I got a reply from Supersprings.

 

"The SSR-209-40 is a good choice for your 2015 GMC 1500.

This will stabilize the porpoising and give you an additional 1000 lbs. at 50% compression.

 

The SSF-209-47 and SSR-209-54 are generally recommended for commercial work truck applications."

 

Looks like RockAuto it is.

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  • 2 months later...

Looking at your weight numbers, you need to push more to front axle.

If you cant tighten the bars any more you should have stiffer bars.

If you don't have a nice arc in your bars, they're not doing enough.

 

I installed Bilstein 5100 also, nice improvement.

We are at about 9000# loaded

IMG 20170501 091537330 HDR[1]

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  • 8 months later...

Sorry for the delay guys, I haven't been on the board much in the last year.

 

On 2/6/2017 at 7:03 PM, sdeeter19555 said:

Timbrens only need to contact the perch, they barely compress from there.

 

Yes, that's describing a spring rate that goes from nothing to infinity in a very short distance.  That can cause all sorts of ride and handling problems, especially over bumps.

 

On 2/6/2017 at 7:03 PM, sdeeter19555 said:

Timbrens add what, "5k pounds" per pair like airbags...and they don't have that habit of pogoing.

 

Airbags most certainly don't have a "habit of pogoing."  Quite the opposite--everything they do reduces the chances of such things happening.  If you ever had a truck with airbags pogoing, you had some other setup issue, the airbags weren't causing it unless they were set up very incorrectly.

 

On 2/7/2017 at 4:42 AM, Cowpie said:

Sumosprings only add 1000 lb capacity, Jon? Really?

 

You're right, I was wrong.  I had simply looked at some typical retailers and those were the only ones listed.  The heavier duty ones certainly would add more capability. 

 

That said, the general idea they perform "similarly to airbags" for every situation is a big stretch.  Even if their construction does mimic the action of a typical airspring, it only does it at one setting--removing the single best feature of airsprings.  It's like saying I'm exactly like Tom Brady, but I can't throw a football very well.  But other than that.....

 

Airsprings have the unique ability to maintain similar ride height (suspension travel and geometry) and ride frequency (ride and handling characteristics) under dramatically different loads. 

 

In order for something like a Sumo spring to be optimum under a heavy load, its ride would be intolerable when empty and people would take them off the truck.  If they provide a good ride when empty they won't be optimum under a heavy load.    You must pick a compromise and suffer a worse ride when lightly loaded for better loaded performance or visa versa--much like standard steel springs. 

 

The leafs in 1/2 tons are dramatically skewed toward the "good ride when empty" end of the compromise.  This guarantees very lousy performance when heavily loaded.  They're just stiff enough to barely get you by at max payload--on purpose.  The room for improvement is huge.  The springs on a 3500 are skewed the other way, as they should be.  Driving fast offroad with a 3500 is just flat miserable.

 

If you have a truck with airbags, pump them up to 50-60 psi or more and drive around like that unloaded for a while--especially offroad.  If that's how they were all the time people would take them off and throw them in the trash.  Yet under the right load, that same setting will provide the absolute best ride and handling possible.  A different load and a different setting is optimum. 

 

Luckily, with a properly sized system, you don't need to be a Suspension Engineer to figure out the settings.  Generally maintaining the same ride height for whatever load you have gets you very close--close enough most of the time.  That method certainly won't be perfect, there can be times you add a little extra or subtract a little depending upon how things feel, but that's the point--with airbags you can.

 

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Sorry for the delay guys, I haven't been on the board much in the last year.
 
 
You're right, I was wrong.  I had simply looked at some typical retailers and those were the only ones listed.  The heavier duty ones certainly would add more capability. 
 
That said, the general idea they perform "similarly to airbags" for every situation is a big stretch.  Even if their construction does mimic the action of a typical airspring, it only does it at one setting--removing the single best feature of airsprings.  It's like saying I'm exactly like Tom Brady, but I can't throw a football very well.  But other than that.....
 
Airsprings have the unique ability to maintain similar ride height (suspension travel and geometry) and ride frequency (ride and handling characteristics) under dramatically different loads. 
 
In order for something like a Sumo spring to be optimum under a heavy load, its ride would be intolerable when empty and people would take them off the truck.  If they provide a good ride when empty they won't be optimum under a heavy load.    You must pick a compromise and suffer a worse ride when lightly loaded for better loaded performance or visa versa--much like standard steel springs. 
 
The leafs in 1/2 tons are dramatically skewed toward the "good ride when empty" end of the compromise.  This guarantees very lousy performance when heavily loaded.  They're just stiff enough to barely get you by at max payload--on purpose.  The room for improvement is huge.  The springs on a 3500 are skewed the other way, as they should be.  Driving fast offroad with a 3500 is just flat miserable.
 
If you have a truck with airbags, pump them up to 50-60 psi or more and drive around like that unloaded for a while--especially offroad.  If that's how they were all the time people would take them off and throw them in the trash.  Yet under the right load, that same setting will provide the absolute best ride and handling possible.  A different load and a different setting is optimum. 
 
Luckily, with a properly sized system, you don't need to be a Suspension Engineer to figure out the settings.  Generally maintaining the same ride height for whatever load you have gets you very close--close enough most of the time.  That method certainly won't be perfect, there can be times you add a little extra or subtract a little depending upon how things feel, but that's the point--with airbags you can.
 
Owned a truck with airbags, put a couple hundred thousand miles on it even...THEY POGO!

Steve
2012 2500hd 6.0l

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On the Sumo's, they are progressive as weight is put on them. they only reach full resistance at 50% height.  Mine rest right on the axle when the truck is empty with no real counter force.  Like a low pressure air bag with the equivalent stock suspension ride.  As weight is added, the bed drops accordingly.  And as that happens, greater resistance from the Sumo's occurs.  By the time I have well over a ton in the bed, my 2500 is just reaching the point of being level, and the full effect of the Sumo's is going on.   Similar to increasing pressure in a bag to counter increasing weight, the sumo's increase resistance as they are collapsed.  One does have to buy the correct Sumo for the maximum they are doing, that is the only variable to consider.

Edited by Cowpie
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Yes, but that's still the same as keeping an airbag at one setting.  The airbags used in these kits also have a progressively increasing spring rate as they are compressed and will support a much larger load after being compressed--without adjusting the air.  When you adjust the air, you can go from a really soft progressive spring to a really hard progressive spring and everywhere in between before you even start the compression depending upon what load you're carrying and what spring rate would be optimum.

 

Here's the chart for the Firestone kit that fits these trucks:

 

Firestone267-1.5.jpg

 

I don't have a chart for the Air-lift 5000's that many use, it'll be similar but the bags are a bit bigger so everything will be scaled up a bit.

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OK, I think I found the correct curves for the AirLift Ultimate 5000's.  These are also easier to read:

 

Goodyear2B6-535Charts.jpg

 

Focus on the charts to the right--those curves correspond to a specific pressure setting at 6" height and show the progressive nature of the springs at a certain setting.

 

Here are the tables to go with the chart.  The 6" setting in the charts on the right is what goes with the curves in the graphs:

 

Goodyear2B6-535Tables.jpg

 

 

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Only if you do it wrong.  Way wrong.  Give details and pics of the setup along with description of conditions when it happened and we'll figure it out.

Not worth it since it would be wrong, even if right, to make your argument.

 

Steve

2012 2500hd 6.0l

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, sdeeter19555 said:

Not worth it since it would be wrong, even if right, to make your argument.

Uhm, yeah.  Anybody who actually takes the time to read my posts knows full well that's not how I roll.  The facts & data are the facts & data.  Somebody liking them or not happens all the time, but it doesn't change them.  They are what they are.  If there was nothing wrong with your setup there would be no reason to be embarrassed about posting details.  Moreover, making blanket, generalized statements when you know in the back of your mind there may have been issues specific to your setup causing problems is spreading bad information.

 

But I can take a pretty good guess and since I want to help people get their trucks set up correctly, I'll use the opportunity to do exactly that.

 

A limitation of airsprings (as well as any other type of spring) is that they don't have an unlimited working range.  They work properly within a specific range and the installed height matters.  If you have a stock truck and you install a well designed system specifically for that truck, you'll be golden.  But people like to level, lift or even lower their trucks.  Unfortunately some don't take into account that they may be putting the airbags out of their correct working range when they do that without making adjustments.  I've seen setups where the airbag is squashed nearly flat at static ride height as well as setups where the bag is stretched to the limits.  Neither is going to work very well--just as if you adjust a coilover one way to the point of coilbind it won't work very well and you'll probably break stuff; if you adjust it too far the other way it'll bottom all the time and you'll probably break stuff.  Installed height matters for any of these things.

 

With an airbag, if the installed height is squashed below its designed static height (as I suspect yours were) this will cause issues.  If you look at the Airlift chart above (the ones to the right), you can see how the bags are progressive, and as they get close to their minimum height they get very, very, progressive.  If that bag, which calls for an installed height of 6" +/- 1" is instead installed at 4" or even 4.5" it is deep into its progressive range and simply won't work very well.  It won't be much better than a set of Timbrens, maybe even worse depending upon details.  Even at lower pressures, you'll be bumping up against that spiking spring rate which will put huge upward forces on the chassis anytime the suspension compresses which can certainly cause a "bouncy feeling."  And of course you risk bottoming the bag, pinching it and causing damage.

 

The solution to this is to adjust the bracketry to give them more installed height.  How this is done will be specific to the kind of truck you have and the specific kit you have.  It may not be possible in all situations and you may need to get a kit specifically designed for lowered trucks.

 

For lifted trucks where the installed height is too high, this can cause other issues.  It takes more air to provide a similar spring rate and load capability, so many who are shy about pumping them up (or simply use the same settings as they did before the lift) will find they aren't nearly as effective as they should be.  The bigger problem, especially for those who have longer than stock shocks extending droop travel, is it's not hard to to run into a situation where in droop the axle literally hangs off the bags, limiting drop travel and possibly damaging the bags.  And with limited droop travel ride quality will suffer.

 

Luckily, this is easier to fix as there are spacers available in many heights as well as daystar cradles which will allow unlimited droop travel as well as subtract installed height a bit.  I've got a 4" lift and depending upon which spacers I use for the bags I have 11" of usable suspension travel in the rear.    That adds a ton of offroad capability without reducing any load carrying capacity as a set of soft offroad springs alone would.

 

Hopefully that offers useful info for people to which it may apply without making too many eyes glaze over.  For the average guy with a stock truck who simply wants to pull his trailers around with a suspension that sucks a lot less than stock, he can ignore all that and just use the right kit for his application.  But for those who want to modify their truck, it's in their best interest to do it the right way.

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