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First Tank of E85


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I just said two things - which is not true...that E85 is subsidized or that mpg is lower on E85 than with E10 gasoline. I watched the video and am not convinced it's a good deal...but we each have choices.

 

and i think that is the message the video is trying to get through, choices. I like to use fuel locally grown and produced by farmers, don't care as much as a half cent more or less per mile. The power gain is a nice plus as well.

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Your right on spread, it is usually much greater. This was a Meijer station which is usually pretty good. At $1.00 a gallon we are talking, even .75 is OK. I do notice power though, I would fill up with E85 before I go on the dunes, it would help getting up to speed to launch it like a dirt bike. Just kidding but I do take it on the dunes a lot, I just climb short but steep dunes and don't beat on it.

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But E85 is so highly subsidized...do we even know the "true" cost of a gallon of E85. Take away the corn subsidies and factor in the reduced MPG, using E85 makes no sense.

 

 

How so? Ethanol subsidies were eliminated Jan 2011 as part of the Farm Bill budget negotiated in 2010. There are no direct ethanol subsidies.

 

On corn, there has not been corn price supports paid in a a long, long time. The baseline for that is far lower than the market corn price. So, there is no corn price supports, or "subsidies" being paid. There are other things going on in the farm bill that are subsidies, like cropland set aside programs (paying to take cropland out of production for a period of time) and other stuff, but corn prices are not being supported via subsidies. There are also some crop insurance supports and such being paid, but they are not corn specific. If you raise green beans or carrots, the same thing applies.

 

And corn prices, on an inflation adjusted basis, are substantially lower than they were in 1995. Yet, because of the actual corn price, the threshold when corn price supports kick in has not been met for many years.

 

The only thing that could be remotely construed as a subsidy or support is the ethanol mandate. But even then, it is a nationwide total ethanol fuel usage mandate, not a per gallon of gas mandate. There is no mandate that ethanol free fuel not be available to those that want it. States themselves are the ones that decide. The mandate just specifies total ethanol use, and it doesn't care how it is done.... via E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, or E85.

 

The true cost of a gallon of Ethanol is purely market driven on the commodity stock exchanges. The ethanol producers are only going to get what the market will pay for it. So we do indeed know the "true cost" of a gallon of ethanol any given day by just checking the commodity exchange trading market boards. As of this morning, Ethanol is trading on the futures board at $1.53 a gallon. Check it out for yourself.

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Oh, I forgot, there are some blender pump subsidies that are in the budget. But those are subsidies to retail gas stations to put in ethanol blender pumps that will provide the consumer with a choice of what blend of ethanol to gas they want. Those are payments to retail gas stations, not ethanol subsidies and payments. Personally, I like the blender pumps. I get a wide variety of selection of ethanol blends.... E10, E15, E20, E30, E50, and E85, and I can select what I want to buy based on prevailing pricing and the cost per mile. The consumer wins!

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This time of year nobody gets e85. Depending on your location and time of year they blend it down to 51% and up to 83%. Octane rating is consequently a bit of a myth. In a 2014+ 5.3 with the e85 option and 83%.... It's a rocket and the cost is roughly the same after accounting for higher consumption.

 

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I run 10 gallons of E85 to a tank of premium (26 gallon tank) in my 02. It is tuned for premium from Black Bear. It is also old technology compared to these new trucks. So I can't run much higher unless I put a sensor on and larger injectors. I did get a lean code on both banks when I ran it straight for a full tank. So I keep it diluted now.

 

I like the fact that it seems to give me more power, no knocking and burns cleaner helping to keep the inside of the engine clean.

 

As for oil. My UOA's improved once I started introducing E85 to the truck. Burning cleaner made a difference for me.

 

The cost is a $1.00 difference between premium and FF.

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It is very true that E85 actual ethanol content varies seasonally, but I highly doubt octane rating ever drops below 93. In my area, E10 is 87 and E15 is 88, so octane level goes up roughly 1 with each 5% of ethanol increase. E30 is roughly 91 octane and E50 would be around 95. So even if winter E85 was indeed only 50%, it would still be higher octane than premium by a comfortable margin.

 

And the mpg differences would not be as extreme with 50% ethanol as opposed to higher levels. And considering that more butane is used in winter gasoline formulation which reduces fuel economy on gas alone, E85 could still be very cost effective depending on price spread.

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I never said that it varied below 93.

 

E85 cannot be consistently measured using (r+m)/2. Look at racing e85 by Sunoco and by Rockett. Sunoco is 99 and Rockett is 112. Both are 85% ethanol. Coincidentally Sunoco racing E-15 is 98. It's not the octane you should care about.

 

Ethanol is alcohol and vaporizes at very low temps. That cools your intake charge. Here's a good primer: http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/additional-tech/1110chp-e85-fuel-switch/

 

Your stoichiometric ratios will measurably get richer as % increases mainly because of the lower energy content but also because alcohol contains oxygen.

 

 

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That is why I have been looking forward to a E85 specific engine to finally be put in a vehicle. There are such engines that have already gone thru R&D from Cummins and Ricardo. In both cases, the engines perform as well as traditional gasoline engines twice their displacement and get diesel equivalent fuel economy. The Cummins 2.8L E85 engine has the performance of a 5.7L Hemi and better fuel economy than that 5.7L on gasoline alone by a considerable margin. The ethanol cooling effect is one of the reasons that help them do that, since they are using compression ratios that come close to diesel equivalent engines. The Ricardo engine is a GM 3.6L that got more robust guts in it, boosted, and delivers the performance and fuel economy of the 6.6L Dmax, but uses E85 to do it. So there is more to using ethanol than just BTU content. It has as much to do with how the fuel is used in an engine. As long as we have engines designed around gasoline first and, oh by the way let you use E85 as a afterthought, then we will have these types of discussions. E85 in these engines will never compete favorably in terms of mpg alone.

 

Still, E85 can be quite cost competitive in some markets, even with the lower mpg. And that is really where it is at, and the only thing I base my fuel buying decisions on..... what delivers me the lowest cost per mile to use. I could give a rip about the differences in mpg numbers. I know that mpg can give some a warm fuzzy, as it is the most visual thing people see, but how my wallet is affected means more to me. Getting 4 mpg better seems neat, until one finds out that it is costing more per mile to do it.

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I'm running E30 now and like the results. Usually try to run E85 most of the time but it seems that in the North Dakota cold my truck does not like to start up with E85. Guessing now that temps are getting warmer I can switch back.

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And that is probably where ethanol falls on its face is extreme cold weather. It doesn't vaporize as well as butane laced winter gasoline. Your methodology is probably spot on.

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