Which Paradigm?

[Grumpy Bear]

9 hours ago, CadillacLuke24 said:

Right may be a better word. I would argue that we know what is right and what is wrong, but we go the other way based on what the flesh wants, peer pressure, laziness, etc. 

 

The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Boy is that ever true. 

You would be in good company as Paul seems to agree with some limitation:

 

Romans 2:14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves.

 

Romans 7:21-25 I find, then, this law in my case: When I wish to do what is right, what is bad is present with me. I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body.  Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death?  Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law

 

Some thoughts to consider perhaps?

 

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death.

 

Isaiah 55:8,9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.

“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

We do indeed have some limited hard wired sensibilities we were created with. After all, we are in 'his image'...but we are cautioned: 

 

Proverbs 3: 5,6  Trust in Jehovah with all your heart, And do not rely on your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him,

And he will make your paths straight.

 

I think the point God is making is law, or right and wrong,  is his domain. 

 

Personally, when I think I know something it's 'my sign' that I'm in deep trouble. 

 

Break time. 

 

[pickmeup]

On 5/26/2018 at 12:48 AM, Grumpy Bear said:

Sister-in-law ( of over 50 years) was in a head on wreck about three weeks ago. Steering wheel to steering wheel. Both vehicles were doing between 55 and 60 mph according to the filed reports. 55 the speed limit. 

 

Took about an hour to extract her from the wreck. When they got there the EMT's tossed a sheet over her pronounced her DOA. Some time into the recovery someone noticed she was still leaking. Something a dead body doesn't do. Her legs occupied a space about the size of a large bread box. The air bag and seat belt collapsed her rib cage breaking allot of ribs and separating her sternum from the left side set. Punctured that lung. Bruised her heart. Thus a lack of measurable breath/pulse. Deep bone bruising to the pelvic and hip Shock and concussion. She was out for days before being induced into a medical coma. She panicked when she came to. 

 

One to two operations a day for two and a half weeks got her off a ventilator and out of the coma. Saved her legs....for now. She has a few more to go but was released to a rehabilitation center. It will be six months minimum before she will be able to sit in a wheelchair and if she walks again it will take a year or more. Still fighting the concussion and infection. Full of cadaver bones, metal rods, screws and pins and pain killers. Mentally? She's a mess. You don't get over this sort of thing....ever. 

 

Crumple zones worked. Seatbelts did their job. Air bag deployed and at the legal speed limit she looks like she was dropped in a rock crusher.  X-rays show her legs in one inch fragments or smaller before work started.

 

 I've seen this kind of damage at 40 mph. I was in that car when I was seventeen. Two others didn't make it. The things that shape my paradigm. 

 

That’s one paradigm, and the another would be…….

 

 

 

 

Bob and Betty were on their way to get a ice cream with their two children in the backseat of their new 1955 Ford country squire wagon car. Bob is driving the speed limit of 60mph when suddenly over the rise in the road appeared a Hudson Hornet three quarters of the way over centerline . Horrible crash killed Bob almost instantly  from the steering shaft impaled in his chest. Betty went out thru the windshield and landed 70 ft. from point of impact in the road . She spent 4 months in the hospital from horrible cuts to face and chest with several broken bones. The worst was not over for Betty neither as she suffered the rest of her life from traumatic injury to the brain which went undiagnosed in them days . Children were saved by the back of the front seat with just bruising. Other driver died 6 hrs. later from massive head trauma . Police said his head hit the solid dash so hard it left a skull imprint at point of impact . Hospital reported swelling of brain was so bad they literally sawed the top of his skull off in attempt to treat the brain swelling . These were the days of full framed string bumpers and no air bags, crumple zones , seat belts, padded dash etc.

[swathdiver]

18 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Sorry, I'm not seeing how this quote is making a case for self determination.

You earlier wrote that man cannot determine right from wrong.  Verses 18 and 19 in the 1st Chapter of Romans states otherwise.  The law of God is written on man's heart, he knows right from wrong. (Hebrews 10:16)

 

Is the NWT your bible of choice? 

[CadillacLuke24]

10 hours ago, pickmeup said:

Bob and Betty were on their way to get a ice cream with their two children in the backseat of their new 1955 Ford country squire wagon car. Bob is driving the speed limit of 60mph when suddenly over the rise in the road appeared a Hudson Hornet three quarters of the way over centerline . Horrible crash killed Bob almost instantly  from the steering shaft impaled in his chest. Betty went out thru the windshield and landed 70 ft. from point of impact in the road . She spent 4 months in the hospital from horrible cuts to face and chest with several broken bones. The worst was not over for Betty neither as she suffered the rest of her life from traumatic injury to the brain which went undiagnosed in them days . Children were saved by the back of the front seat with just bruising. Other driver died 6 hrs. later from massive head trauma . Police said his head hit the solid dash so hard it left a skull imprint at point of impact . Hospital reported swelling of brain was so bad they literally sawed the top of his skull off in attempt to treat the brain swelling . These were the days of full framed string bumpers and no air bags, crumple zones , seat belts, padded dash etc.

It's amazing how far they have come with technology in that regard. They crash tested an 09 Malibu with a 59 Bel Air and the results were stark. The Malibu driver basically would walk away and the Bel Air driver would be lucky to survive. 

[Grumpy Bear]

6 hours ago, swathdiver said:

You earlier wrote that man cannot determine right from wrong.  Verses 18 and 19 in the 1st Chapter of Romans states otherwise.  The law of God is written on man's heart, he knows right from wrong. (Hebrews 10:16)

 

Is the NWT your bible of choice? 

Asked and answered but PM'd you anyway. 

 

Of choice? I suppose so. I understand 20th century English better than 15th century Kings English. It's both literal and accurate. When I want the word for word I read my Greek Interlinear. I read Byington's Living English version and like it allot. Sometimes my mothers KJV or American Standard versions she taught me with and left me. Gideon's at the doctors office. I have several "of choice'. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by Grumpy Bear

[CadillacLuke24]

How accurate are the different versions? I've heard some are more than others.

[Grumpy Bear]

9 hours ago, CadillacLuke24 said:

How accurate are the different versions? I've heard some are more than others.

No one has God's original stone tablets and the mediums Moses wrote on have long since decayed. The first three books for example that contain early history and the Law given to Moses were written some 3500 years ago. The newest of the Hebrew Scriptures was written about 430 B.C.E. What translators work with are the oldest copies of copies of copies we have available to translate from. The Greek Scriptures fair better in this regard the last books written just before 100 C.E. Those works we copied by 'scribes'. It was a full time job that exacted extreme accuracy of copy to the point of counting individual letters of an entire text. Translators today that compare one copy to another which were completed hundreds of years apart find the integrity of the copies to be, with rare exception, quite identical. Even fragments of texts are consulted. 

 

Then there is the matter of language. Both the Hebrew and Greek forms of the language it was originally written in are dead languages as are many others. They come and go as we have experienced in our own lifetimes. Scholars, linguistic experts if you will, exist who translate texts word for word to the best of the current understanding of the language in question. A Greek Interlinear is  fine example of a word for word rendering.  But like any translation from it's origin to the target language it isn't always so smooth. Grammar, use of verbs and tense literally translated can change the intended meaning of a thought so rendered. The meaning is more important than word for word exactness especially in cases where no word exist in the target language that is a literal exchange. For example the Koine Greek of Scripture has four distinct words for "Love" and each is unique in it's meaning. English has but one. The meaning or idea of a word in English is often found in its context and not in its word. For the Greek to opposite is often true. German has individual words that when translated to English are entire paragraphs. What a world.

 

More later as this is getting long in the tooth and I have some appointments to keep. Sorry to be partial.    

[Grumpy Bear]

17 hours ago, swathdiver said:

  The law of God is written on man's heart, he knows right from wrong. (Hebrews 10:16)

Paul is quoting a prophecy recorded in Jeremiah 31:33. Reading the entire context in Jerimiah God is speaking of his law being written in their hearts at a future time replacing the old law of Moses. Christ did this at his death and Paul is commenting on that.

 

That replaced law was also written in their heart.  By what means? Deuteronomy 6:6-9. God gave them the law and it was handed down father to son, Inculcated.  It is not of mans personal origin and as Deut 6:12 indicated it can be forgotten, and it has been by many. So what can we say about the Law?

 

It CAN be written on mans heart but it is a choice and not automatic. You have to want it there and be taught it by him who gives it. As with anything we learn our sense of it and precision is it's use depends a great deal on our personal level of effort we put into it. 

 

 

[swathdiver]

On 6/21/2018 at 2:04 AM, CadillacLuke24 said:

How accurate are the different versions? I've heard some are more than others.

Not at all accurate.  All modern bible versions come from the Textus Siniaticus which was written by a guy on the Isle of Patmos in the 1839-1843 time frame.  It has no chain of custody.  Bibles like the NIV are missing 60,000 words and no two bibles agree with each other.  Is God the author of confusion?  Christ himself quoted from the Masoretic text, there are no jots and tittles in the mythical Septuagint.  

 

God has chosen to preserve his Word in the English with the King James.  It is perfect and inerrant.  

[swathdiver]

16 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Paul is quoting a prophecy recorded in Jeremiah 31:33. Reading the entire context in Jerimiah God is speaking of his law being written in their hearts at a future time replacing the old law of Moses. Christ did this at his death and Paul is commenting on that.

 

That replaced law was also written in their heart.  By what means? Deuteronomy 6:6-9. God gave them the law and it was handed down father to son, Inculcated.  It is not of mans personal origin and as Deut 6:12 indicated it can be forgotten, and it has been by many. So what can we say about the Law?

 

It CAN be written on mans heart but it is a choice and not automatic. You have to want it there and be taught it by him who gives it. As with anything we learn our sense of it and precision is it's use depends a great deal on our personal level of effort we put into it. 

 

 

Romans 1 says that man knows right from wrong.  It's when his foolish heart is darkened that he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.  The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to repentance.

 

Remember, ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  The wages of sin is death.  The 3rd Chapter of John says that man is condemned already for not believing.  There is nothing we can do to earn eternal salvation, our best works are as filthy rags.

[Boardmember]

I can think of no better thread than this one to post my 1000th post.

 

its a grand discussion.  I’ve read it all, some a couple times.  I see it as healthy discourse. And I appreciate you all.  Actually I know I am not worthy.  But I am a sincere Believer.  

[Grumpy Bear]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:23 AM, swathdiver said:

Not at all accurate.  All modern bible versions come from the Textus Siniaticus which was written by a guy on the Isle of Patmos in the 1839-1843 time frame.  It has no chain of custody.  Bibles like the NIV are missing 60,000 words and no two bibles agree with each other.  Is God the author of confusion?  Christ himself quoted from the Masoretic text, there are no jots and tittles in the mythical Septuagint.  

 

God has chosen to preserve his Word in the English with the King James.  It is perfect and inerrant.  

Quote: All modern bible versions come from the Textus Siniaticus.
 

Replay: Not true. Leningrad Codex 1008/1009 C.E, Dead Sea Scrolls offer 220 manuscripts and fragments that are quite a bit older. Aleppo Codex. Samaritan Pentateuch. Greek Septuagint. Aramaic Targum’s. Latin Vulgate. Syriac Peshitta. Biblia Hebraica Quinta and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. A few of the manuscripts used in translation. 
 

Quote: Christ himself quoted from the Masoretic Text.
 

Reply: Indeed he did but he also quoted a good deal more of the Hebrew Scriptures. At Luke 4:17;19 he quotes Isaiah 61:1,2 for example. More importantly he fulfilled hundreds of prophecies found in the Hebrew Scriptures. 

 

Quote: The Mythical Septuagint. 
 

Reply: That would be in disagreement with Bible Scholars such as William Tyndale &  Tischendor and nearly every current University. 
 

Quote: God has chosen to preserve his Word in the English with the King James.
 

Reply: Hum...this is an opinion the way it is stated.  
 

Quote: It is perfect and inerrant. (Inerrant: incapable of being wrong).

 

Reply: Also an opinion as stated. It is a Bible commissioned in 1604-1611 by King James VI who…(quote WIKIPEDIA)  “…gave the translators instructions intended to ensure that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology of, and reflect the episcopal structure of, the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy. The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England”

 

The JKV omits God’s Proper name about 7,000 times inserting titles such as LORD in large print where the Tetragrammaton exists in the manustripts it is translated from. Christ used his father’s name. Insisted on it. Asked we pray for it’s sanctification, Matt 6:9. Asked it be glorified John  12:28 and stated making God’s name Jehovah was in great part his purpose for being here. John 17:25,26. The KJV depending on the exact printer and country of that printings origin may or may not call God by his proper name at Ps. 83:18. Neither perfect nor inerrant.  

 

 

 

[swathdiver]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Quote: All modern bible versions come from the Textus Siniaticus.
 

Replay: Not true. Leningrad Codex 1008/1009 C.E, Dead Sea Scrolls offer 220 manuscripts and fragments that are quite a bit older. Aleppo Codex. Samaritan Pentateuch. Greek Septuagint. Aramaic Targum’s. Latin Vulgate. Syriac Peshitta. Biblia Hebraica Quinta and Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. A few of the manuscripts used in translation. 
 

Quote: Christ himself quoted from the Masoretic Text.
 

Reply: Indeed he did but he also quoted a good deal more of the Hebrew Scriptures. At Luke 4:17;19 he quotes Isaiah 61:1,2 for example. More importantly he fulfilled hundreds of prophecies found in the Hebrew Scriptures. 

 

Quote: The Mythical Septuagint. 
 

Reply: That would be in disagreement with Bible Scholars such as William Tyndale &  Tischendor and nearly every current University. 
 

Quote: God has chosen to preserve his Word in the English with the King James.
 

Reply: Hum...this is an opinion the way it is stated.  
 

Quote: It is perfect and inerrant. (Inerrant: incapable of being wrong).

 

Reply: Also an opinion as stated. It is a Bible commissioned in 1604-1611 by King James VI who…(quote WIKIPEDIA)  “…gave the translators instructions intended to ensure that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology of, and reflect the episcopal structure of, the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy. The translation was done by 47 scholars, all of whom were members of the Church of England”

 

The JKV omits God’s Proper name about 7,000 times inserting titles such as LORD in large print where the Tetragrammaton exists in the manustripts it is translated from. Christ used his father’s name. Insisted on it. Asked we pray for it’s sanctification, Matt 6:9. Asked it be glorified John  12:28 and stated making God’s name Jehovah was in great part his purpose for being here. John 17:25,26. The KJV depending on the exact printer and country of that printings origin may or may not call God by his proper name at Ps. 83:18. Neither perfect nor inerrant.  

 

 

 

Point 1:  You list a bunch of other writings from ancient times but my point is that ALL modern bible versions find their roots in the Sinaiticus which two occultists,  Westcott and Hort translated into the English. 

Point 2:  The Masoretic text are the Hebrew scriptures.

Point 3:  That's right.  The bible "scholars" pursue after filthy lucre and ignore God's curse upon those who take away from His Word or add to His Word.  Last time I checked, all modern versions are copywrited and to receive a copywrite, it must be at least 10% different from another.  The KJV is not copywrited.  Constantin Tischendorf is the guy who "found" it and brought it back to Russia.  He also artifically aged it, have you ever seen it online?  It would never pass muster with the ancient scribes, it's hurriedly and terribly written.  There are verses in the margins even.  Pick 5 modern versions and they will not all agree with each other.  God promised to preserve His Word.  It has been said that the Sinaiticus came out of Egypt.  We now know this to be false but that's what they claimed.  Are you familiar with the Law of First Mentions?  What good ever came out of Egypt?  The manuscripts that later made up the Received Text, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, came out of Syria, from the Church at Antioch that sent out Paul and Barnabus as missionaries.  If I were alive back in those days and a Christian, would I seek the works of admitted occultists and agnostics or the works of a Christian church focused on missions, education and spreading the gospel?

 

Points 4 & 5:  The King James is the only perfect and inerrant bible.  None other has stood such scholarly crititque, today just being ignored by the modern "scholars" because they cannot refute it.  It is a bible of building one's faith, not sewing seeds of doubt.  Modern perversions make Jesus a sinner, not God, etc.

 

With regards to the NWT, those two guys from Brooklyn, with the help of the Jesuits wrote their bible to conform with their religion, hence the prolific use of the word Jehovah in places were the originals, even the Siniaticus, did not have it.  Finally, there are typeset and printing errors but such does not detract from the claim of it's inerrancy.

 

If God promised to preserve His Word, then where is it?  If one has to consult multiple versions to understand a passage, who is the reader's final authority?  I'll trust in my King James, the Holy Spirit is my teacher, he led me away from the NIV.  "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" - John 10:27

 

Good talk Marty.      

[Grumpy Bear]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 4:36 AM, swathdiver said:

Romans 1 says that man knows right from wrong.  It's when his foolish heart is darkened that he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.  The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us to repentance.

 

Remember, ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  The wages of sin is death.  The 3rd Chapter of John says that man is condemned already for not believing.  There is nothing we can do to earn eternal salvation, our best works are as filthy rags.

We can be taught right from wrong but it is not our right to determine it. Fact is we, the human race, do not universally agree on what is right or wrong, do we? If it were  some sense of universal 'rightness' that was imprinted in the heart of men we would have agreement universally. Thus the Law, God's law, was a schoolmaster in the sense it showed the Jews under that law, taught by Law, their inability to perfectly execute the Law thus show them their sin like a mirror shows you your face. God wrote that Law, not men. Those outside the law of Moses did not reflect that law written in "their (Jews) hearts". Those people had no such 'knowing'. Thus knowing isn't part of our nature but a result of Godly education,  accepted thus 'written' in the heart as was quoted from Deut. in an earlier post. 

 

If I understand our positions on this clearly the difference hinges not in the ability to know right from wrong, but knowing what right and wrong is and whose right it is to determine it. Men in a general sense don't even know what God's laws and stated purposes are. 26% of all people professing to be Christian have never opened a Bible. More than half don't attend services. Fact is most people won't even discuss the Bible. Half the world or better don't even believe in the Bible or it's God. Paul wasn't speaking about a Universal state of knowing good and bad. He was writing to the Roman Christian congregation not the Roman people, people that had already accepted the Gift of Christ death and were taught "The Law of the Christ". Galatians 6:2

 

[Grumpy Bear]

Partial Quote James wrote: With regards to the NWT, those two guys from Brooklyn, with the help of the Jesuits wrote their bible to conform with their religion, hence the prolific use of the word Jehovah in places were the originals, even the Siniaticus, did not have it. 

 

I don't know where your getting you information on this. The NWT was not translated by Jesuits nor with their help. The list of manuscripts were indeed those used in the translation of the NWT. The work books are on display in Patterson NY. So not ALL current Bibles are the result of the Textus Siniaticus. It was a much larger team than 2, 36 if memory serves be correctly. None of which took any credit. Most of the original manuscripts are in London and the Hebrew Tetragrammaton is indeed peppered through out those listed manuscripts.  A review by an Indiana University reported it was of exceptional fidelity to the original text. It conforms to no religion. It conforms to the oldest available manuscripts in existence. 

 

I have no problem with my KJV other than I don't speak that centuries English. As far as a copywrite it does indeed have one but under another name by exception to English Copywrite Law, Royal Prerogative of the Queens Printer. Which and of itself means little other than all copies are sufficiently similar to the one King James VI commissioned. Your explanation of it's history differs a great deal to secular history it seems. 

 

 

 

There is no older book on Earth than the Bible and there has been no greater effort by men upon any other writing to destroy it. I am of the opinion, yes opinion, something I try to offer too much...that any creature powerful enough to create a Universe from nothing but himself is certainly capable of preserving his word to that creation well enough for it to have no excuse for saying it was ignorant of his will and laws. Paul makes that argument plainly Romans 1: 18-20.