2019's have the same crappy frame wax?

shift_grind · September 20, 2018

1 hour ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Odd: you speak about a time before you were born like you were there. Funny stuff that.

Anecdotal evidence. Hummmm. Let me think about that a minute...………………….minutes up.

Evidence is something offered in proof when it matters to you that you convince SOMEONE ELSE. See here's the thing troll with no name. It doesn't matter to me one iota if you believe my experiences or not. Why? Because you don't spend my wallet....I do. I don't suffer the consequences of your ignorance; you do; I for one won't follow you down that rabbit hole.

I'll bet you taught yourself to read and write. Discovered mathematics and physics too. You are so important and so smart you used nothing of what came before you.... Let me ask you. Did you demand your teachers offer proofs of their knowledge to teach? Or did you follow like a Lemming.

That technology you speak about that benefits us all is something people MUCH older than you built and built it upon the foundations of those ancient in your eyes. What exactly is your contribution? Don't remember seeing your name on the covers of any of my engineering classes text books.

Grasshopper you knowledge is a mile wide indeed, and yet only an inch deep.

Given the condescending nature of your tone and assumptions I'd rather not waste anymore time with your trolling and factually incorrect statements. I do suggest you take some of your own advice and do some reading. Perhaps you'll learn something instead of trying to turn your opinions into facts.

Edited September 20, 2018 by shift_grind

Grumpy Bear · September 20, 2018

32 minutes ago, shift_grind said:

Given the condescending nature of your tone and assumptions I'd rather not waste anymore time with your trolling and factually incorrect statements. I do suggest you take some of your own advice and do some reading. Perhaps you'll learn something instead of trying to turn your opinions into facts.

Seriously? What you speak of is before your time thus you have no first hand knowledge thus your argument is entirely anecdotal. A thing you've condemned. Yes? Oh, do you have some empirical evidence to share? A University or Government study perhaps that can be fact checked? I thought not! So your speaking out your a**. Great! Another self proclaimed millennial expert going to fix the world.

Condescending? You mean like out of hand rejection of another's personal experiences? Obliquely calling another a liar? That kind of condescension? You have a mirror? I assume nothing grasshopper. I have no need to read about it. Remember? I was actually there. There MY experiences. A FACT you can never boast. Fact is, your short of facts.

What part of 'before your time' can you not get your head around? Nameless troll, if your going to call a man a liar you better be d*mn sure and be able to back it up. And own it. No name and now no game.

I didn't offer an opinion grasshopper. I offered my experiences which you've rejected out of hand. Pretty much the definition of condescending. Get a dictionary. Does anyone speak English anymore? Crikey Mate!! Is that better?

shift_grind · September 20, 2018

8 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Seriously? What you speak of is before your time thus you have no first hand knowledge thus your argument is entirely anecdotal. A thing you've condemned. Yes? Oh, do you have some empirical evidence to share? A University or Government study perhaps that can be fact checked? I thought not! So your speaking out your a**. Great! Another self proclaimed millennial expert going to fix the world.

Condescending? You mean like out of hand rejection of another's personal experiences? Obliquely calling another a liar? That kind of condescension? You have a mirror? I assume nothing grasshopper. I have no need to read about it. Remember? I was actually there. There MY experiences. A FACT you can never boast. Fact is, your short of facts.

What part of 'before your time' can you not get your head around? Nameless troll, if your going to call a man a liar you better be d*mn sure and be able to back it up. And own it. No name and now no game.

I didn't offer an opinion grasshopper. I offered my experiences which you've rejected out of hand. Pretty much the definition of condescending. Get a dictionary. Does anyone speak English anymore? Crikey Mate!! Is that better?

You've put all of your self worth in your wisdom, which only hinges on your belief that because you're old you know more than anyone younger than you. I'm not sure if you've had these comments written for months and you couldn't wait to fire them off - or perhaps you're just senile. They seem a little prepackaged. You bring up points and responses to arguments that didn't even exist. The amount of irony is, while fun, a bit pathetic and sad really.

One thing is for sure - I bet your grandkids regret the day they showed you how a computer works. Or perhaps they did it to redirect your anger and just general prick demeanor somewhere else.

Rather than continue, I think I'll just block you. Later gramps.

rjpoog1989 · September 20, 2018

I’ve got a 70 year old tractor that I cut grass with... I don’t always trust it to start when I need it. I wouldn’t want a 70 year old car to get me to work every day.

I think things today will last just as long if properly cared for. I plan to keep my 14 Camaro until I die, and as long as it stays out of salt it will last forever. My truck on the other hand will hopefully get me through the next six years or so. It gets abused and driven through all the chemicals PennDOT throws around. Back in the day they didn’t throw that crap on the roads...

L86 All Terrain · September 21, 2018

23 hours ago, rjpoog1989 said:

as long as it stays out of salt it will last forever.

This is the key factor. Calcium Chloride used on the roads here, if you get it directly on your leather boots or gloves they will shrink. It eats vehicles at an alarming rate, this is why some of the trailer crossmembers and gussets rot, even being 3/8" thick. My point is that an exposed 1mm thick piece of raw steel will rot at lease 925% faster than the 3/8" plate. We are replacing some cross members on trailers as new as 2005, yet some young man is trying to tell me it will outlast an old truck frame. Hell, GMT900 are hitting the scrap yard here for structural failures, yet these skinnier, more poorly coated frames are supposed to last longer? I know full well none of these trucks will be on the road in 20 years unless your from Arizona and spend your weekends maintaining it and spend the week not driving it. My 2015 isn't winter driven or gravel road driven (essentially my poor-man's/Canadian sports car) and even the NOX rust on that truck is starting to lift on ALL edges.

I get brand loyalty, I love my GM's but I wont lie to myself or anyone else and I will be the first to call out there shortcomings. A thin box frame and a "temporary" coating being one of their biggest let downs. Will you wear out the truck before the frame rots, most likely, my original comment was attesting to the predictable longevity of the units and their components. GM realizes the point it to use the truck, so why make a frame that last 65 years when the rest will only last 15? Let's not start argument here, but saying your new truck is more quality than the old one is like saying your new Chinese Harbour Freight wrench set is better than your grandfather's classic set of Snap-On's forged by hand in the USA, the statement doesn't hold validity. Old stuff, build with pride and made to last lifetimes, new stuff build with carelessness, made to throw out quickly so you are back in the door spending more money. It's basic marketing/economics/sales common sense.

shift_grind · September 21, 2018

On 9/19/2018 at 10:41 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

41 minutes ago, L86 All Terrain said:

This is the key factor. Calcium Chloride used on the roads here, if you get it directly on your leather boots or gloves they will shrink. It eats vehicles at an alarming rate, this is why some of the trailer crossmembers and gussets rot, even being 3/8" thick. My point is that an exposed 1mm thick piece of raw steel will rot at lease 925% faster than the 3/8" plate. We are replacing some cross members on trailers as new as 2005, yet some young man is trying to tell me it will outlast an old truck frame. Hell, GMT900 are hitting the scrap yard here for structural failures, yet these skinnier, more poorly coated frames are supposed to last longer? I know full well none of these trucks will be on the road in 20 years unless your from Arizona and spend your weekends maintaining it and spend the week not driving it. My 2015 isn't winter driven or gravel road driven (essentially my poor-man's/Canadian sports car) and even the NOX rust on that truck is starting to lift on ALL edges.

I get brand loyalty, I love my GM's but I wont lie to myself or anyone else and I will be the first to call out there shortcomings. A thin box frame and a "temporary" coating being one of their biggest let downs. Will you wear out the truck before the frame rots, most likely, my original comment was attesting to the predictable longevity of the units and their components. GM realizes the point it to use the truck, so why make a frame that last 65 years when the rest will only last 15? Let's not start argument here, but saying your new truck is more quality than the old one is like saying your new Chinese Harbour Freight wrench set is better than your grandfather's classic set of Snap-On's forged by hand in the USA, the statement doesn't hold validity. Old stuff, build with pride and made to last lifetimes, new stuff build with carelessness, made to throw out quickly so you are back in the door spending more money. It's basic marketing/economics/sales common sense.

Different steels have different corrosion values. There are a lot of types of steel and they all react differently. Your trailers you speak of are most likely low grade mild steel that will rust out very quickly. Its cheap and very strong, but if not coated with something goes to hell very quickly High strength steel is much much more corrosion resistant. The new frame, according to GM is mostly high strength steel.

Like I said, more isn't always better. It's the way it's constructed and the type of metals. The steel is thinner and the frame is boxed now, that doesn't mean it will rust out sooner. Like you said - even at 3/8" thick your trailer frames rot. That's some thick steel and the extra thickness didn't do a thing to save it. Turns out GM spent millions and probably billions on this and they know what they're doing.

The notion that the new trucks are built like a harbor freight tool compared to the old "lasts forever" stuff is just foolish.

I just replaced the entire back section on the frame of my 87 Monte Carlo. The stuff in front of the rear axle was coated in oil from a leaking....everything otherwise it would look the same. Got rid of the old man's 70 Pontiac due to extreme frame rot from sitting in his garage for the last 20 years. Yeah, that stuff lasts forever.

Edited September 21, 2018 by shift_grind

shift_grind · September 21, 2018

Grumpy Bear · September 21, 2018

On ‎9‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 7:40 AM, shift_grind said:

You've put all of your self worth in your wisdom, which only hinges on your belief that because you're old you know more than anyone younger than you. I'm not sure if you've had these comments written for months and you couldn't wait to fire them off - or perhaps you're just senile. They seem a little prepackaged. You bring up points and responses to arguments that didn't even exist. The amount of irony is, while fun, a bit pathetic and sad really.

One thing is for sure - I bet your grandkids regret the day they showed you how a computer works. Or perhaps they did it to redirect your anger and just general prick demeanor somewhere else.

Rather than continue, I think I'll just block you. Later gramps.

Because I'm old? No grasshopper. Because I was there. You were not. You have been asked several times to offer proofs for those things you did not witness. You've declined to do so. Repeatedly.

Now your going to redirect the conversation to a character assassination and some school yard name calling. Your going to block me? LOL. Okay. Your not saying anything worth listening to anyway.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Grumpy Bear

Texas Daddy · September 25, 2018

Im pretty old. I remember a phone was built to take the abuse of my brother and I beating each over the head with the handle. Now a phone gives you all the information mankind has (and frees shelf space formerly occupied by World Books), but breaks with a drop. Times change, and its a trade off between better and worse...

When 9/10ths of the world was still using oxen plows for agriculture, we had the cost advantage building heavy duty steel goods that lasted decades. Now materials are much more in demand, and cheap labor is running out. A truck built to last 50 years, meet safety / fuel effeciency standards, and be functional would cost much more than any regular consumer would be willing to pay...

In the end, Ill just want the best truck they make right before they start driving themselves. I dont want anything steering, stopping, or starting that isnt me...

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

HondaHawkGT · October 4, 2018

On 9/21/2018 at 4:40 PM, L86 All Terrain said:

My 2015 isn't winter driven or gravel road driven (essentially my poor-man's/Canadian sports car) and even the NOX rust on that truck is starting to lift on ALL edges.

Which is why I started spraying my frame with fluid film and other petroleum based oils. If you don't want a frame to rust that's what you have to do. Doesn't matter if it's wax coated, e-coated, or simply painted. They will all rust aggressively. I've seen 09-14 F-150's with heavily rusted frames despite e-coated frames. There arre plenty of 2015+ frames with rust on every single weld because the ultra-thin e-coating is terrible at protecting the metal. They all need an oil film that can soak into any existing rust or surface pores and prevent the corrosion.

On 9/21/2018 at 4:40 PM, L86 All Terrain said:

A thin box frame and a "temporary" coating being one of their biggest let downs.

There is no such thing as a "permanent" coating. Ford's e-coating (thinner than a human hair) isn't permanent. Toyota's painted frames last half as long as any other manufacturer's frame coating. What permanent coating do you know of?

shift_grind · October 5, 2018

21 hours ago, HondaHawkGT said:

Which is why I started spraying my frame with fluid film and other petroleum based oils. If you don't want a frame to rust that's what you have to do. Doesn't matter if it's wax coated, e-coated, or simply painted. They will all rust aggressively. I've seen 09-14 F-150's with heavily rusted frames despite e-coated frames. There arre plenty of 2015+ frames with rust on every single weld because the ultra-thin e-coating is terrible at protecting the metal. They all need an oil film that can soak into any existing rust or surface pores and prevent the corrosion.

There is no such thing as a "permanent" coating. Ford's e-coating (thinner than a human hair) isn't permanent. Toyota's painted frames last half as long as any other manufacturer's frame coating. What permanent coating do you know of?

What do you spray it with and how often?

L86 All Terrain · October 5, 2018

On ‎2018‎-‎10‎-‎03 at 9:45 PM, HondaHawkGT said:

There is no such thing as a "permanent" coating. Ford's e-coating (thinner than a human hair) isn't permanent. Toyota's painted frames last half as long as any other manufacturer's frame coating. What permanent coating do you know of?

Line-X, Galvanizing, Powder-coating will last 10x longer than paint or wax or e-coat style coating, this is why off road vehicles like ATV's and sleds have powder-coated frames and suspension parts. I have a 10 year old SxS I ride hard and put away wet, scrape on logs and rocks, the frame is 100% fine. I know it would cost a lot, but given the choice I would happily pay a few grand for a proper protection method over the garbage wax. If a surface is properly prepped and coated it will not rust aggressively, I have many trailers from the 90's at my business that still have perfect factory paint where they haven't been scraped or blasted by sand from the roads. There is a reason late model GM's are hitting the scrap yard before the powertrain fails and it is because of frame rot caused by thin steel and an improper protection method. You guys might not have it so bad in the US but in -30c Ontario they cake the roads with Calcium-Chloride to melt ice which if you get on your leather gloves, they will shrink in seconds to your hand. There are GMT900's in our scrap yards because the coating fails and then the thin frame will be compromised in 1-2 years, many with less than 150k miles. Sure a lot of that goes back to maintenance, but you can't buy the factory coating from Daubert Chemical Co and who really wants to spend 10 hours a year cleaning and touching up your frame because they cant do it properly the first time? I have heard Fluid Film reacts with the wax and will loosen it, but I have not tried personally.

HondaHawkGT · October 6, 2018

On 10/5/2018 at 9:15 AM, L86 All Terrain said:

There are GMT900's in our scrap yards because the coating fails and then the thin frame will be compromised in 1-2 years, many with less than 150k miles. Sure a lot of that goes back to maintenance, but you can't buy the factory coating from Daubert Chemical Co and who really wants to spend 10 hours a year cleaning and touching up your frame because they cant do it properly the first time

LOL I would say that it was 110% neglect if a GMT900 truck is that rotted out. I have never seen a GMT900 truck get scraped because of a rotted frame. Plenty of early GMT900's have rusted out bedsides and rockers but not perforated frames.

And you CAN buy Daubert Nox Rust. Not sure why so many guys think you can't buy it.

https://www.daubertchemical.com/products/corrosion-prevention/product/nox-rust-x-121b

You'll see the "Buy Now" box in the upper right corner.

Line-x or any other rubberized coating would be terrible on its own. The rustiest GMT900 frame I've seen was one that had a rubberized undercoating applied when brand new. It trapped moisture under the surface. It looked nice and new until rust started bubbling up so bad the rubber started falling off.

On 10/5/2018 at 9:15 AM, L86 All Terrain said:

I have heard Fluid Film reacts with the wax and will loosen it, but I have not tried personally.

That's what some guys claim. Though I'm willing to put money on it that the wax that they think FF caused to "loosen" and fall off was already in the process of flaking off. Even if they applied nothing, that wax would have "loosened" and peeled. From what I have seen, the factory wax on some trucks hardens very early on and starts to flake. I had flaking issues with my frame in the first year, which is why I started applying FF and used gear oil (Shell Omala VG220 and 680 lol). Even if GM used an e-coated frame, I would have smothered it in FF or oil.

The second mistake that guys make when applying FF to the factory wax is that they try to spray it with a pressure washer. You cannot and should not use a high pressure washer on a Nox Rust frame after applying FF. There's no reason to spray the frame after applying FF. As long as you keep applying FF once or twice per year, the salt and moisture can't get at the frame. If you need to rinse the frame off, use low pressure cold water and "spritz" it. Some guys swear FF dries out or evaporates but those guys are using the thinned down aerosol stuff instead of buying the thick stuff that comes in a bucket. The thicker stuff creates a thicker coating.

The nice thing about products like FF and conventional oils is that they can be applied to any surface and protect it. No need to degrease the frame like you would need to for paint or a coating like Line-x. If there's surface rust, products like FF and oil soak into the rust and prevent the rust from getting worse. It works for me and the Tacoma guys swear by it. If FF can keep a Tacoma from rust rotting, it can keep ANYTHING from rust rotting.

Edited October 7, 2018 by HondaHawkGT

HondaHawkGT · October 7, 2018

On 10/4/2018 at 7:26 PM, shift_grind said:

What do you spray it with and how often?

I use Fluid Film that comes in a bucket. It's thicker than the aerosol stuff. I either spray it on using a HVLP spray gun (gravity fed) that I bought at Harbor Freight or I just brush it on. I usually use the spray gun on areas where the factory wax was flaking and peeling. It helps if you heat it up. The smell bothers some people. It's lanolin so it smells like wet sheep. The smell dissipates after a week or two.

The other product I use I get from work for free. Used gear lube. Shell Omala VG220 and S2 G 680. I get it for free and it's VERY thick stuff that holds on well especially in the cold. Don't apply it on rubber bushings or hoses.

I try to fog the inside of the frame rails with the stuff using the holes in the frame. All the them need to be heated up for it to mist well enough for that.

shift_grind · October 7, 2018

Have you ever considered or tried something like por15?

I'm using Eastwood rust encapsulator for under my Monte, the parts that didn't need replacing. No idea how it holds up yet as it has been on jackstands for the last year and will be until (hopefully) next spring.