2500HD gas drops 4.10 gear option! what! dealbreaker!

markp210 · October 18, 2019

Forget the Chevy 2020 2500HD gas version!, they dropped 4.10 gear option which has been around since the beginning of time.
2019 and earlier versions offered 4.10 rear gear ratios. Here is the difference in performance in max trailer weights for 2019 and older crew cab short bed models with 4.10 was 14200#, and 3.73 were 9700#.
It would have been ok if they changed the transmission ratios but they didnt on the gas version!
From 14200# to 9700# is a huge difference, saying you make up for it by increasing the engine torque wont make up for it on the hills. You need the extra gear ratio on the hills because the RPMs will drop too much when it shifts. Also the 3.73 will put more stress on the clutches that engage when the transmission shifts.
I love my 2012 2500HD with gas, but the gears on the hills are barely acceptable and I cant afford to make them worse. Time to go to Ford that offers 4.30 gear ratios!

carkhz316 · October 18, 2019

This isn't breaking news. Since the debut of the '20 HDs, they've stated that the gas would only receive the 3.73 for now. Yes, it would be great to have more gearing, but I'm sure the truck will perform fine with the given power boost.

newdude · October 18, 2019

54 minutes ago, markp210 said:

Forget the Chevy 2020 2500HD gas version!, they dropped 4.10 gear option which has been around since the beginning of time.
2019 and earlier versions offered 4.10 rear gear ratios. Here is the difference in performance in max trailer weights for 2019 and older crew cab short bed models with 4.10 was 14200#, and 3.73 were 9700#.
It would have been ok if they changed the transmission ratios but they didnt on the gas version!
From 14200# to 9700# is a huge difference, saying you make up for it by increasing the engine torque wont make up for it on the hills. You need the extra gear ratio on the hills because the RPMs will drop too much when it shifts. Also the 3.73 will put more stress on the clutches that engage when the transmission shifts.
I love my 2012 2500HD with gas, but the gears on the hills are barely acceptable and I cant afford to make them worse. Time to go to Ford that offers 4.30 gear ratios!

Obviously you haven't seen the 2020 HD gas tow ratings? The 2020 2500hd tows 14,500lbs conventional towing gas, up to 17,370lbs 5th wheel/gooseneck gas. The 3500hd single rear wheel can do 14,500lbs, dually up to 16,800lbs conventional with gas engine, and up to 17,200lbs 5th wheel/gooseneck. These ratings meet/exceed the 2015-2019 truck.

Those are all gas 6.6 with the standard and only ratio of 3.73. I've linked the tow rating charts below;

Your 9700lbs rating applies ONLY to 2007-2014 HD trucks as the 3.73 was standard 2007-2013 and then for 2014 the 4.10 was made standard and the 3.73 became the option. The 4.10 was the only ratio 2015-2019 HD gas, the 3.73 was dropped.

2500hd: https://www.gmfleetorderguide.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2020&regionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=21694&section=trailer_specs&page=&butID=8

3500hd: https://www.gmfleetorderguide.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2020&regionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=21724&section=trailer_specs&page=&butID=8

amxguy1970 · October 18, 2019

First of y'all did you really join just to quickly complain about something irrelevant and then yell out you are going to Ford? If that doesn't sound like a troll I don't know what does...

Take a look at the specs again before you spout off. Max conventional trailering for the gas 2019 version with the 3.73 is 9700 same with the 5th wheel. With 4.10's it is 13000 conventional or 14200 with a 5th wheel. The 2020 is 14500 conventional and 16900 with a 5th wheel with a 3.73. Last I checked that is a good amount more than 2019. Oh, but you are incorrectly hung on gear ratios and say an addition of torque doesn't make up the difference, that is where you are dead wrong and another 60 hp and 84ftlbs damn sure will make up for it especially when the curve is moved lower and the torque curve is flatter. The Ford gasser can only tow 15400 with 4.30 gears. They are coming out with a bigger strong motor, I bet it won't have the 4.30 option anymore. But when that info comes out you can incorrectly go join the Ford forums and make our first post a complaint about that as well. Do some homework, gear ratios isn't everything these days just like motors are no longer solely truck or car motors. This isn't 1970, the Toyota Tundra is horribly out performed by all the new trucks even though it has 4.30 gears (well had, it is 4.10 now I believe).

Tyler

SierraHD17 · October 18, 2019

3.73 was not dropped in 2015 through 2019.. it was just limited to fleet orders which accounts for a majority of gas engine HD truck sales. And yes.. my 2017 started life with a 9700 lb tow rating and 3.73s.

Yes Ford is offering the 7.3 10 speed F250s with 4.30s... yes that's an actual option and look no further than the Tremor where that combination is standard equipment.... but not Gm lol. Keep the same old 6L90e and handicap the truck with 3.73 gears only. The power bump doesn't offset mechanical advantage ever... the gearing lessens the strain on the rest of the truck. And after watching the TFL truck video it's still the same problem. There is no excuse from a tuning standpoint to lug the engine down wide open to 2000 rpm before downshifting. Even with the 6 speed trans you could downshift a lot earlier than that and keep the engine closer to peak torque.

I took my 2017 from 3.73 to 4.56 and would never go back. With no tuning or mods in any near future for these 2020s I have no desire to get one as I would regear it to 4.56 at least as well... kinda hard when you can't tune it. The next best thing is my plan using the e92 ECM and dropping the 6.6 into my 2017.... then I can do what I want with it. If they stay 3.73 the 10 speed will be great provided they smarten up and let it downshift and use all those gears. That said anyone who isn't lazy can just shift it manually and not let it do that bogging in the first place.

Edited October 18, 2019 by SierraHD17

SkiDooNick700 · October 18, 2019

The Fast Lane Truck just did the Ike Gauntlet towing test with a 6.6L gas, I yhink it would benefit more from additional gears vs a slightly (shorter? ) 4.10 ratio. The 6spd has a larger difference in rpm drop vs the 8 and 10 spds we are becoming used to.

SierraHD17 · October 18, 2019

Personally I am used to the 6 speed lol.... I don't care for the 8 speed and had one for about a year in a 2015 6.2 truck. The gearing would help offset tire size and weight but in their test would it be enough to make that truck much faster up the guantlet? Simple answer is no and it all stems from the lack of downshifting GM does. They have no trouble making these trucks heavier and adding larger tires... never do much in the axle ratio department or account for changes with their transmission tuning. The 10 speed ( if ratio'd like the 10L90 in the half tons) would do a lot better provided as I said they actually use the gears and downshift when needed as opposed to lugging.

Like let's say I am pulling that Ike Gauntlet thing in that truck TFL ran.. I would not have left it do what it was doing. I do the same thing with my own trucks now... get them in the gear I want and keep the revs up where it's making power and can hold speed. That 6.6 makes a lot of power but bogging it down to 2000 rpm or less pulling a hill like that would make anything naturally aspirated be less than impressive. The 6.4 Hemi Ram they tested a couple years ago was doing the same thing and just refused to downshift making the truck a total slug when a simple tap of a button would have alleviated that issue.

Edited October 18, 2019 by SierraHD17

SkiDooNick700 · October 19, 2019

Yea, I get what your saying @SierraHD17

I still lean towards additional gears would help but also i do agree with what you are saying - pick a gear up in the revs and hold it there for the climb. Makes sense to me.

I remeber that 6.4 hemi vid, it was slower up the hill than the 6.0 i think right? Because of the way Ram programmed the trans i think. Which maybe its better overall for the truck to hold a single gear at an optimal rpm... sounds most efficient.

SierraHD17 · October 19, 2019

It was yep. And as much as GM guys want to be like "Hemi's are trash and slow"... well that 6.4did exactly what the GM 6.6 was doing and refusing to downshift. It was worse though and I think they dropped to 20 mph or so lol. For a hill like that gauntlet close to peak torque is where you want to be to optimally. Even when the Chev finally downshifted it was in the lower 3000 rpm range and it started accelerating again.

ShotgunZ71 · October 20, 2019

On 10/18/2019 at 2:40 PM, SierraHD17 said:

Personally I am used to the 6 speed lol.... I don't care for the 8 speed and had one for about a year in a 2015 6.2 truck. The gearing would help offset tire size and weight but in their test would it be enough to make that truck much faster up the guantlet? Simple answer is no and it all stems from the lack of downshifting GM does. They have no trouble making these trucks heavier and adding larger tires... never do much in the axle ratio department or account for changes with their transmission tuning. The 10 speed ( if ratio'd like the 10L90 in the half tons) would do a lot better provided as I said they actually use the gears and downshift when needed as opposed to lugging.

Like let's say I am pulling that Ike Gauntlet thing in that truck TFL ran.. I would not have left it do what it was doing. I do the same thing with my own trucks now... get them in the gear I want and keep the revs up where it's making power and can hold speed. That 6.6 makes a lot of power but bogging it down to 2000 rpm or less pulling a hill like that would make anything naturally aspirated be less than impressive. The 6.4 Hemi Ram they tested a couple years ago was doing the same thing and just refused to downshift making the truck a total slug when a simple tap of a button would have alleviated that issue.

17 hours ago, SierraHD17 said:

It was yep. And as much as GM guys want to be like "Hemi's are trash and slow"... well that 6.4did exactly what the GM 6.6 was doing and refusing to downshift. It was worse though and I think they dropped to 20 mph or so lol. For a hill like that gauntlet close to peak torque is where you want to be to optimally. Even when the Chev finally downshifted it was in the lower 3000 rpm range and it started accelerating again.

Yep. Hills like that need to manually lockout upper gears and let the engine turn. It’ll keep pace just fine, it just needs the RPMs to do it. I’d hate to think Mr Truck was involved in anything of importance, judging how he thinks he’s a scholar of all things trucks and towing.

Edited October 20, 2019 by ShotgunZ71

Cowpie · October 22, 2019

The big problem for me with the 3.73 is that if I had that pickup I would have to remain in 5th all the time... empty. Currently with my 2500 and 4.10, I remain in 5th most of the time on the rural, hilly roads in my area, only going to 6th if I will be doing 65 or more on the freeway... empty. By staying in 5th most of the time on the rural, hilly roads it stops a lot of shifting on every little mole hill in the road and actually helps a little with mpg and transmission temps.

And the new 2020 2500 6.6 gasser had a yawn of a showing on the Ike Gauntlet pull test. A far cry from when the L96 won the Ike Gauntlet pull test for gassers a few years ago. Now, I think having a 10 speed might help with that. Even though it has more HP and Torque, the L8T 6.6 does not have quite as flat of torque curve as the L96 6.0, so the L8T could benefit from more gears that keep the engine in the tighter optimal band. And running in top gear at 65 the engine RPM would not even be at 90% of available torque. Best I can tell from published graphs, at typical engine RPM in top gear the L8T would only be at about 80% of available torque. The L96 in top gear with 4.10 would be at 90% of available torque at 65.

Likewise, the L96 with 4.10 at 65 mph is at 70% of available HP. The L8T with 3.73 at about 65 mph is at about 48% of available HP. One can always download the graphs of these engines and look at the RPM for a given speed by taking the top gear ratio, size of stock factory tires, and diff ratio and calculating it out. I could be off by a little bit, but the gap is still substantial.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Cowpie

NWI Denali · October 22, 2019

Re: the guys saying, "why doesnt tfl lock out higher gears, or even manually select gears?" The whole point of their test is to see how good (or bad) the OEM trans tuning is. To let the computer and truck do all of the thinking.

i82much · October 22, 2019

7 minutes ago, NWI Denali said:

Re: the guys saying, "why doesnt tfl lock out higher gears, or even manually select gears?" The whole point of their test is to see how good (or bad) the OEM trans tuning is. To let the computer and truck do all of the thinking.

Sure, but come on. Any of us are going to downshift in that situation. I think part of it is also about repeatability, they want to be able to do the same test on every truck rather than face criticism that they manually shifted one truck better than the other. I think it is a hard thing for them to do, to test the trucks in way that is realistic yet doesn't introduce additional variables to muddle the results.

Ultimately I think the tests are interesting but it is hard to gauge how well a truck does given the way they test them. I am sure a 6.6 gasser will smoke my 6.0 with an equivalent load under any circumstances, even with the 3.73's. That's fine, my 6.0 does everything I need it to do!

SkidooSteve12 · October 23, 2019

On 10/22/2019 at 6:56 AM, Cowpie said:

The big problem for me with the 3.73 is that if I had that pickup I would have to remain in 5th all the time... empty. Currently with my 2500 and 4.10, I remain in 5th most of the time on the rural, hilly roads in my area, only going to 6th if I will be doing 65 or more on the freeway... empty. By staying in 5th most of the time on the rural, hilly roads it stops a lot of shifting on every little mole hill in the road and actually helps a little with mpg and transmission temps.

And the new 2020 2500 6.6 gasser had a yawn of a showing on the Ike Gauntlet pull test. A far cry from when the L96 won the Ike Gauntlet pull test for gassers a few years ago. Now, I think having a 10 speed might help with that. Even though it has more HP and Torque, the L8T 6.6 does not have quite as flat of torque curve as the L96 6.0, so the L8T could benefit from more gears that keep the engine in the tighter optimal band. And running in top gear at 65 the engine RPM would not even be at 90% of available torque. Best I can tell from published graphs, at typical engine RPM in top gear the L8T would only be at about 80% of available torque. The L96 in top gear with 4.10 would be at 90% of available torque at 65.

Likewise, the L96 with 4.10 at 65 mph is at 70% of available HP. The L8T with 3.73 at about 65 mph is at about 48% of available HP. One can always download the graphs of these engines and look at the RPM for a given speed by taking the top gear ratio, size of stock factory tires, and diff ratio and calculating it out. I could be off by a little bit, but the gap is still substantial.

I don't notice the downshifting from 6th to 5th at 55 mph rural hilly roads, but I also haven't been paying attention to what gear it is in. Running pretty smooth and I think the extra torque holds a gear longer. You should take one out for a test drive.

19 hours ago, i82much said:

Sure, but come on. Any of us are going to downshift in that situation. I think part of it is also about repeatability, they want to be able to do the same test on every truck rather than face criticism that they manually shifted one truck better than the other. I think it is a hard thing for them to do, to test the trucks in way that is realistic yet doesn't introduce additional variables to muddle the results.

Ultimately I think the tests are interesting but it is hard to gauge how well a truck does given the way they test them. I am sure a 6.6 gasser will smoke my 6.0 with an equivalent load under any circumstances, even with the 3.73's. That's fine, my 6.0 does everything I need it to do!

I agree, the tests are interesting and done in such a way to keep it fair and similar for each different truck. But it should also be run up that mountain a second time with manual shifting to show how much better that situation can be. I found a different towing video and posted it here: