Jump to content

TRIAX SRT 0W30, 5W30 DEXOS 1 Gen 2


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Black02Silverado said:

A band aid is all you did.  The cause is still there and if you go back to the old ways it will return.  The average person isn't going to use special oil "detergent" to keep from having issues.  Hence it is a tuning issue. 

Why did manufactures go from 5qt sump to 8qt in the larger displacement engines?  So they didn't have issues at 1k miles because the oil was toast from the engine design/tune.  That's my thought.

1 minute ago, Black02Silverado said:

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Black02Silverado said:

A band aid is all you did.  The cause is still there and if you go back to the old ways it will return.  The average person isn't going to use special oil "detergent" to keep from having issues.  Hence it is a tuning issue. 

 

 

 

I don't know if you meant to or not but you nailed the cure in the highlighted portion. 

 

If I did, it would, that is spot on. It would be insanity to expect a different result repeating the same behavior would it not?

 

Varnish is NOT the result of tuning. It's the result of oxidation. Fuel dilution decreases viscosity which will over time wear them out but it does not contribute to oxidation. 

 

Oxidation has three lines of defense in a motor oil. 

 

1.) Base oil choice. 

2.) Acid neutralization

3.) Antioxidant additives. 

 

For the oil to varnish, oxidize or sludge the oil must be DEPLETED of both acid neutral chemicals AND antioxidants and there are only two ways that happens. 

 

1.) It didn't have enough resistance to begin with OR

2.) It was in service way to long

 

So I have three choices or combination thereof. 

 

1.) Use an oil with a more oxidation resistant base oil

2.) Use an oil with a more robust add package

3.) Change it more often

 

Oxidation starts with heat and the byproducts of combustion, not raw fuel. Combustion is these motors is better today than it has ever been. CLEAN

 

I hope I am not hearing you say the products you sell are not up to the task sir. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

I don't know if you meant to or not but you nailed the cure in the highlighted portion. 

 

If I did, it would, that is spot on. It would be insanity to expect a different result repeating the same behavior would it not?

 

Varnish is NOT the result of tuning. It's the result of oxidation. Fuel dilution decreases viscosity which will over time wear them out but it does not contribute to oxidation. 

 

Oxidation has three lines of defense in a motor oil. 

 

1.) Base oil choice. 

2.) Acid neutralization

3.) Antioxidant additives. 

 

For the oil to varnish, oxidize or sludge the oil must be DEPLETED of both acid neutral chemicals AND antioxidants and there are only two ways that happens. 

 

1.) It didn't have enough resistance to begin with OR

2.) It was in service way to long

 

 

 

 

 

So you are saying all the oil on the shelf that isn't POA/POE 100% isn't worth using and that the manufactures should just go with said POA/POE oils and such and all these issues will go away? 

 

Going with a specific product is a band aid.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/11/2021 at 12:49 PM, Black02Silverado said:

So you are saying all the oil on the shelf that isn't POA/POE 100% isn't worth using and that the manufactures should just go with said POA/POE oils and such and all these issues will go away? 

 

Going with a specific product is a band aid.

 

 

 

You like putting words in my mouth? Don't let the wife catch ya...she may not understand.... 😉 

 

First we say GM knows what they are doing...TRUST THEM...use what they say for as long as they say. 

Then we say GM can't tune a motor and that causes the issue but it can pass the most rigid EPA requirements to date. 

We then say they 'engineered' an oil to prevent the issues the tuning engineering created??

Then we say we have an oil over here that is BETTER than the 'minimum requirements' GM laid out and hint this will solve all tuning related ring issues? BECAUSE THE 'SHELF' oils are not up to the task?

C'mon man. Which is it? That's confusing. 

 

Your getting frustrated Nick and doing what frustrated people do...

 

I said no such thing.

 

I've has said REPEATEDLLY you could run Castor Bean Oil IF you change it often enough.

 

GM and all OEM's for that matter will continue to press the limits of oil hunting for EPA approvals. 

Oil companies, in general, will continue the silly 'Synthetic" game of words dumbing down the product for profit. 

EPA will continue to squeeze the additives out of oil that prevent the issues the first two are creating.

Marketing from all three will continue to lie for profit

Owner/operators will continue to squeeze penny's and burn hundred dollar bills. 

 

So I have 'newer' formulations that are made from cheaper less effective products with lower and less effective additives and being told by the EPA and the OEM's to run them past all sensibility and what is the result???

 

A long list of TSB's on ring varnish from every major OEM out there and all the others swearing 'It isn't me'"? 

 

Will a PAO/POE be helpful? YES! They have an undeniable advantage against oxidation

Will a boutique oil with more antioxidant and detergent be helpful? YES! (Than Dexos or SAE approves) 

Will that oil NOT conform to the DEXOS license...Yea that's likely

Will changing oil more often be helpful? YES! Before the additives are consumed. 

 

This treatment  I used was NOT a band-aid. It was a solution to reset the playing field just like setting a new checkerboard for a new game. I tired it GM's way. Drank the Kool-Aid and got bit on the nose for my trouble. Now we are going to do it my way and I WILL get the right result. 

 

Nick I cleaned this motor out with a concentrated detergent that is the SAME detergent used in the self oils. Put on the thinking cap and tell me what that says about detergent levels in shelf oils? They meet the SN+/SP spec but not the motors NEEDS FOR THE OCI GM WANT'S.

 

IF this were a GM philosophy tuning issue then Pepper would be dead as well and she is not. She to is a GDI GM child. Most of her life she has been on a diet of POA/POE with a boat load of antioxidants and detergents that I change out 33% sooner that GM wishes. 

 

Dizzy is going to get 2.5K OCI's using Kirkland DEXOS 5W30 and a hot shot of TRIAX S7 as UOA has already shown this DEXOS1Gen2 approved and licensed oil is out of calcium in under 4500 miles and GM would like it to run for 7500??? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Black02Silverado said:

So you are saying all the oil on the shelf that isn't POA/POE 100% isn't worth using and that the manufactures should just go with said POA/POE oils and such and all these issues will go away? 

 

Going with a specific product is a band aid.

 

 

Useful information maybe. Interesting read on the vehicle in question. Just for clarity. 2015 terrain 2.4. GB wife’s car. Bought used. Quakerstate oil up to 100K miles. Complained often that the vehicle was driven hard. Wife’s a lead foot. Started using oil at around 100K. PCV system was blamed. Cleaned still going at 140K plus miles. Would a cleaning and back to original oil get it to 200K miles? Hard to tell many different oils used after cleaning. Could there be other factors involved? Driving style, different oil, cleaning more often. Who knows. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Black02Silverado said:

So you are saying all the oil on the shelf that isn't POA/POE 100% isn't worth using and that the manufactures should just go with said POA/POE oils and such and all these issues will go away? 

 

Going with a specific product is a band aid.

 

 

 

Let's say for the sake of argument this IS a tuning thing. I like to give an out when I can. 

 

Issue remains. Varnish. Doesn't matter what caused it. Still have stuck rings and crazy oil consumption. Varnish once again is an oxidation byproduct that is dealt with by the detergent/dispersant levels in the oil. One of the key selling points of AMSOIL is the HIGH level of these detergents. The TBN a prime indicator. AMSOIL touts a high TBN for this very reason. Right? 

 

GM has set an interval of oil change and a level of detergent/dispersant that should carry that DEXOS oil to that OCI. A guy can summit UOA results until pigs fly and if the rings stick due to varnish the rings are stuck and the levels were too low regardless of test results. There can be no debate about what IS. 

 

Detergents and dispersants and antioxidants for that matter are "sacrificial". The equation is VERY simple. Load verses demand. When demand exceeds the additive load, the oil FAILS to prevent varnish and rings stick. Game, set, match. 

 

It does not matter what SHOULD be. Only what is. And what is was a licensed DEXOS1Gen2 oil FAILED to prevent varnish inside the OEM recommended OCI. FACT is it didn't make to to 2/3's the recommended levels. 

 

It is the oils job to protect the motor. Not the motors job to protect the oil. 

 

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2014/MC-10137923-9999.pdf

 

Read this and I mean really read it. Before underway the tech is instructed to assure the OCI set by the OLM has been recalibrated to the NEW LOWER LIMIT.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/11/2021 at 1:43 PM, Grumpy Bear said:

I've has said REPEATEDLLY you could run Castor Bean Oil IF you change it often enough.

 

Oxidation is the enemy

 

What are the tools used to fight oxidation?

 

1.) Oil Change Interval

 

2.) Detergents/Dispersants do more than 'clean', they neutralize the weak acids preventing the building blocks of oxidation from building up, precipitating out as sludge, varnish. 

 

Yes that is a bit after the fact and literally the last line of defense. 

 

3.) Antioxidation chemistries sacrifice themselves hindering oxidation.

 

Machinery Lubrication has this to say on this topic: 

 

Currently, the most commonly used primary antioxidants are the phenolic, phenates, salicylates and amine types; the secondary antioxidants are usually sulfur or metal-containing additives. Once the antioxidant additives are depleted, the base oil is more vulnerable to oxidation.

 

The underlining is mine to note the role of ZDDP in this process as being secondary but necessary. 

 

4.) The base oil selection. The further up the base oil food chain you go the more resistant a base is to oxidation. 

 

Okay so I went about this in reverse order for a reason that should already be apparent. 

 

You can not prevent oxidation. You can only hinder it...slow it down.

 

How successfully that is done is a matter of what choice you make to pour into your motor and how quickly you are willing to remove it. 

 

The more resistant the base is to oxidation the less dependent it will be on the chemical help and the longer it will last when that chemical help is depleted. ALL additives are sacrificial. 

 

You would think that one of the most important things to check in a UAO would be the reserves of primary antioxidants. If you have enough money (Industrial users) you will get that testing done. 

 

41fdc300-f1ff-4033-b3e5-ecea6e12b55e_Figure%206.jpeg

 

The information in this graph is being used to plead for longer and longer OCI's and oddly it only confirms what we have known for a good long while. When the TBN falls to meet the TAN the antacids are depleted thus the antioxidants are depleted and oxidation is well underway. When this graph is combine with the one on WEAR vs TAN/TBN to picture is clear. 

 

So how long should a OCI be? Maybe your asking how long CAN it be? Depends on your choices. 

  • 1.) How you chose to treat your motor
  • 2.) What base oil you choose. 
  • 3.) Level and type of antioxidants that oil contains
  • 4.) Level and type of antacids that oil contains
  • 5.) The level of testing your willing to pay for
  •  

Do I need to say this? Yes, I think I do. Each one of these bullet points is an ace in the deck. It isn't a matter of which ace but how many you choose to draw that will determine OCI.

 

The fewer you hold the shorter the OCI.

 

Personally I like a five ace hand. 

 

Later note. Like a chain, OCI is only as effective, strong, as it's weakest link. 

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/11/2021 at 12:14 PM, Black02Silverado said:

Why did manufactures go from 5qt sump to 8qt in the larger displacement engines?  So they didn't have issues at 1k miles because the oil was toast from the engine design/tune.  That's my thought.

 

 

The solution to pollution is dilution. 

 

It's been a corporate strategy for decades 

They "put back" the additives the Government removed by increasing the volume of oil in the pan

That's as close to a no brainer as it gets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.lubesngreases.com/magazine/take-a-tour-of-zddp/

 

 This isn't a SAE paper but a good read none the less. 

 

As you read this take close note of the guarded wording when making emphatic statements. 

 

Nothing like a hand full of mud to keep the water murky, eh?

 

May, Should, Might, In some cases, "or at least no more effective".  Al the sudden something believed to be harmful is in reality just not doing anything useful. 

 

TRIAX knows which and how much their oil contains and how much more it will hold. S7 isn't sold as a AW agent all though it contains some. It is primarily a detergent booster. An aid to increasing TBN as it is depleted for the expressed purpose of extending change intervals. This the bread a butter of oils like AMSOIL. 

 

I took special note of the comments made in this article concerning diesel oils. One thing they failed to mention is that a good many *W20 and *W30 oils carry BOTH an S and a C classification exempting them from the phos. limits of a straight S rated oil and yes even DEXOS Licensed oils. The diesel oils also contains the "other" ZDDP not normally found in a gas motor oil IN COMBINATION with the gas oil version. Hum...so much for blending types not working. 

 

 I also took note that it is the phos that is the primary AW not the Zinc and the drive to remove it does not center around wear but cat converter problems in motors that USE OIL. Circle back. Motors that don't use oil are not a concern. 

 

Note the concerns of Crane and Comp cams...the guys taking it the warranty teeth from these lower limits and who sell "break in paste/lube" to combat it. ZDDP paste. Makes me wonder about these phenols as a primary AW when Crane is squawking. 

 

And an odd one. They claim interference from ZDDP in corrosion inhibitor action. Odd as it is the ZDDP that IS the primary corrosion inhibitor. Has been since 1941 when that was it's primary function. 

 

If it smells of skunk then skunk it is. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

TRIAX S7 WORKS

 

image.png.f8d82778fac010a2eed79e55f75c2c11.png

 

2 GM's Top End Ring Soaks worked sort of for about 8 thousand miles and digressed.

That is they improved the situation but did not 'restore' anything close to the original.

BG products ERP and GUNK flushes had no measurable effect on the rings but flushed 'soft' sludge out nicely.

 

A 1500 mile TRIAX S7 treatment brought it from point 8 on the chart to point 9. Point 10 was a guess based on recovery. 

 

Refinement in my measuring, meaning I took over oil changes and measured precisely, has oil consumption at the very bottom of the 'Normal" range. That range being 0.03% to 0.05% of the fuel consumed. In this case a quart in 23,840 miles.

 

A far cry from GM's...

"It's normal to use a quart per 2,000 miles" 

 

As it turns out the factory piston in this motor has way to little oil return area. 

 

https://www.jasperengines.com/blog/jasper®-offers-remanufactured-gm-24l-ecotec-ohc-engine

 

This is NOT a tuning issue.

It's a design issue.

 

If S7 is a band-aid I'm buying a box

Cheap and effective and

PERMANENT

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.