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Oil Question


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anyone have any experience with this oil? Seems like a great deal.

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Edited by cjlet
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  • cjlet changed the title to Oil Question

 

I bought six or eight cases. Run it in the wife's 2015 Terrain 2.4 I4

 

Has about the same TBN as Quaker State Ultimate Durability which I ran in that motor until the rings varnished and collapsed. That was on 5,000 mile oil change intervals. Evidently that is to long.

 

As it was using so much oil I used Kirkland changing oil on 2,500 mile intervals. Cheap enough to throw away.  I'm saying oils with a TBN of 8 won't go 5,000 miles. Oils with a TBN of 10 will. Not many of those. None at this price point. 

 

I got the rings freed up (another conversation) but have retain the 2,500 mile OCI's. 

 

I'm not looking it up again.

 

But there is a VOA floating around showing this oil depleted (TBN under 3) by 4,000 miles.

 

It's as good as anything on the self at a fraction of the cost but like nearly everything on the shelf do not believe for a minute it will go the OEM OLM OCI. 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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Some oils are more expensive because they really are a better product.  It’s the buyer’s responsibility to know the difference and decide if the increased cost is worth it... to some it is...to some it isn’t. A Store brand is not the exact same product in a different bottle.  Often these generic store brand oils are bid out on a competitive basis, meaning the lowest bidder just barely meeting the specification gets the contract.    The oil change market is cut-throat, engine oils are considered by many as "commodities" and the cheapest oil yields the largest profit.  

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Caveat Emptor

 

https://www.api.org/-/media/Files/Certification/Engine-Oil-Diesel/Publications/150917thAddendum1-032515.pdf?la=en&hash=4057EE22EC6548780D903CE70C7370D182731D52

 

If the bottle has the API starburst it has the an API license. Which license is within the Starburst. Such as SN+

 

pqia.org has this to say about that symbol: (quote)

 

API “Starburst”

The presence of this symbol indicates that the motor oil is formulated to meet the most current International Lubricant Specification Advisory Committee (ILSAC) standards which include additional requirements for fuel economy and emission system protection.May 15, 2020 (end quote)

 

The first link I provided is a the API test requirements for each classification. These are test the oil MUST pass to earn it's license. They are many and guided by ASTM test standard requirements. DEXOS1GEN2 is also a license which is guided by those self same ASTM requirements and methods. 

 

Sometimes these standards have a minimum requirement. Sometimes a maximum requirement and a few are fenced, having both. This is your assurance that what is in the bottle conforms to those standards IF it bears the API Starburst. 

 

IF

*******************************************************************************

What El Camino (Mike) is tell us is that within that maximum or minimum is "Latitude". For example the standard for NOACK for the license SN is 15% as measured by ASTM  D5800. To get the General Motors DEXOS1GEN2 license it has to be "better" at 13%. But some companies will go ever lower (better). Sometimes much lower. (See note in link, page 60, frame 68, under ASTM D5800 for reference).

 

There are dozens of test it must pass and some do it better than others but ALL do it well enough, if they have the license, to meet GM's requirement

 

Spoiler alert! 

 

Cost is NO indication of an oils performance. 

 

It IS a measure of the companies marketing boldness

 

Thus:

 

Caveat Emptor

 

That does not mean that 'in general' better oils using better components will be more costly, they absolutely will be, but it does mean companies that use cheaper components will charge just like the best to create both the illusion of 'better' and MARGIN. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, cjlet said:

Aren’t these trucks supposed to use 0-20?

factory likes to burn these trucks up with watered down oil, emmissions crap, and high engine/trans temps.  the point is to get you into another vehicle soon..

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It is on GM's list of oils, which means it meets the specification.  Seems more and more are producing their own brand of oil.  Just like Fram now has a line of oil out.  It is on the list as well.  But like stated above, it can be on the list but that just means it more than likely just "meets" the specification. 

 

GM charges a nice dollar to be on their official list.  So with that, the cost for the company is high and they have to make up for it.  So they produce it at the lowest cost possible to meet the GM dexos specification.

 

With that said, like Grumpy, it will work for short oil change intervals.  Only taking an oil sample at a longer drain will tell you if it is capable of going longer.  Then you have that extra expense of the UOA which takes out the whole reason for buying  a lower cost oil. If you change oil often then no problem.

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Brands like mentioned here are what GM calls "Licensed Branders", they purchase fully formulated dexos® oil from a "Licensed Blender" and repackage the oil under their own brand name(s).   They don't have to pay the testing fees as the blender did that, just a royalty on total gallons produced.  

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Ever hear that saying, "All other things being equal..."? 

 

Except they never really are. Not because they can't be but because people won't let them be. This is one of those things. 

 

 

The more dynamic a system is the easier it is for marketing to exploit it. It has enough moving parts to keep anyone and everyone not keeping their head it the game in the dark swearing it's high noon.

 

Kirkland is a perfectly serviceable oil that will do as good a job as you personally will allow it to do. The oil is cheap. So don't get cheap and force it to do something it can't. Change it. 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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  • 2 weeks later...

Just meets the minimum spec??

 

pqia.org tested this 5W30 and I expect the additives will be a mirror in the 0W20 just like everyone else's oil. 

 

So what does this "just meets' suppose to mean? I mean it is said all the time like there was a cliff to fall off of surrounding the word 'spec' or specification. It suppose to give you the sense that the thing is on the verge of failure or somehow lacking. Is it? Does it have the SAE Starburst? Does it have the GM DEXOS license logo? Then it meets the spec. If GM wanted a tighter spec than the SAE they would call it out. And as a matter of fact they do! The DEXOS license REQUIRES some extra and tighter testing. 

 

https://www.lubesngreases.com/lubereport/17_40/dexos1-gen-2-taking-off/

 

IF your going to say "Just meets' like a dirty word then you better also be able to state how product XYZ's enhanced properties offer an advantage above the GM Engineering requirement GM was remiss in specifying. Explain what GM missed. 

 

Don't get your dander up. It can be done and done with ease but it will take more than saying a thing so to make it so. 

 

https://360.lubrizol.com/2016/New-tests-in-the-second-generation-dexos1

 

From this link: The new specification is driven by the global market shift toward higher fuel economy. The implications for oil marketers are significant, as second generation dexos1 requires considerably higher-performance lubricants than current API and ILSAC industry standards.

 

Your going to need a rabbit pulled from a hat to make a "just meets" comment stick. 

 

Now....while the test have specified temperatures and time limits nowhere and I mean NOWHERE will you find a specification that requires an oil to meet this spec for any particular OCI. 

 

Your maintenance schedule in your trucks handbook IS NOT AN OIL SPECIFICATION ANY OIL SUPPIER MUST MEET. 

 

There is a practical matter of degree in which a thing said and even proved matters. 

 

Example. XYZ oil keeps pistons 63% cleaner than blah blah blah. IF the standard in a half gram in 40 hours at 300 C a quarter gram improvement is a 50% improvement but will a quarter of a gram have an impact on lifetime performance that one can QUANTIFY? I mean, once the spec gets so tight major improvements have zero practical impact...IMHO. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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Here's "Meets Minimum Standards".

HTHS

 

Note HTHS and date of publication on this AMSOIL SS 5W30 "Top O' the Line" on page 4 of their data sheet

https://amsoilcontent.com/ams/lit/databulletins/g2880.pdf

 

And the answer is? 3.11 cP.  The API minimum requirement is? 2.9 cP. How does this compare to Kirkland?

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/kirkland-5w-30-oil-specs-from-warren.321289/

 

And the answer is? 3.2 cP. Yep, Higher. 

 

How about compared to Red Line Professional Series 5W30? 

 

https://www.redlineoil.com/professional-series-5w30-motor-oil

 

And the answer is? 3.2 cP. This is there second tier product WITH the Dexos1Gen2 license! 

 

One last item; http://wboil.com/comparison-testing.html

 

It's important to take note of the DATE of this test vs the DATE of the first link. Formula changed and as a result so did the results...still the old formula test are still posted......

 

Know what I don't see on the SS bottle? A DEXOS1Gen2 license. So lets run it up the flag pole against other oils with that license. 

 

Red Line HP. https://www.redlineoil.com/5w30-motor-oil

3.7 cP

 

MPT 30K https://mptindustries.com/product/mpt-thirty-k-full-synthetic-high-performance-motor-oil-5w30/

3.9 cP

 

Lets build a table then

 

API requirement 2.9 cP

AMSOIL SS       3.1 cP

Red Line PS      3.1 cP

Kirkland            3.2 cP

AMSOIL OE       3.3 cP

Red LIne HP     3.7 cP

MPT 30K          3.9 cP

 

While the SS  'Exceeds Minimum Standards" oil does do so in some regards it is not all encompassing.

Their very own OE 5W30 actually exceeds the SS in HTHS at 3.3 cP

 

I added all the links so you can verify

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
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