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I find this very concerning with the new 2024 diesel 2500's


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Skip forward to the 20.25 mark on this video.  I was like WTH??  Can anyone else confirm this?  If this is correct we've got a huge problem Houston...

 

 

Edited by Jettech1
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5 minutes ago, arkenzo said:

that doesn't make any sense, i don't know what to believe. i'm more inclined to believe that the door sticker is correct and not the app. we will see.

That whole thing totally threw me off.  We believe in our door stickers.  If he's right, that door sticker doesn't mean crap.  It was a total WTH moment for me because that would include the gassers too.  Not that it matters to me personally because I don't ever get close to the limits of my door sticker.  But....and here's the huge BUT in the room.  What if you are towing close to max and something bad happens?  This could turn into a liability nightmare for GM and the people using their trucks to the limits.  I'm hoping he just spoke out of step or that this is just an anomaly with the GM app that will be updated in the near future. 

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8 minutes ago, Another JR said:

No mystery here - they are just up against the GCWR.  

What he was talking about is the gooseneck weight went from 19100 to 16800 on the app.  

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Who cares? Where does it say what is in the app has any legal authority? 
 

Plus, they never explained anything about the app. What did they input into the app? Did they have to input cargo load, passengers, tongue weight, etc.? No details at all…just some staged sensationalism. 

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The sticker has an upper half showing the actual rating limits for the actual vehicle, and a lower half with a separate heading. 


The lower half shows the SAE J2807 based structural limits of the hitch receiver and frame.   They sort of say it there by general reference to the SAE standard, but it’s not clear enough what they are providing in that lower half. 
 

 

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12 minutes ago, Ry Guy said:

Who cares? Where does it say what is in the app has any legal authority? 
 

Plus, they never explained anything about the app. What did they input into the app? Did they have to input cargo load, passengers, tongue weight, etc.? No details at all…just some staged sensationalism. 

A policeman by the side of the road will refer to the sticker if he’s getting into that. In court, it all is relevant and will be examined. “A man’s got to know his (vehicle) limitations.” 
 

In the end, all the app is doing (if it’s programmed correctly) is helping you stay within all of the limits. With a gooseneck, I suspect GCWR will almost alway be the controlling limit on these trucks. If you are already aware of and following all the limits - GVWR, GCWR, payload, axle ratings, tire ratings, trailer weight ratings, tongue rating, and hitch rating (what did I miss), you know what you are doing and will be legal. If you have an accident and are 3k above your actual most limiting rating, and all you can do is point at the hitch rating to defend yourself, you may be found liable. 

Edited by Another JR
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2 hours ago, Another JR said:

The sticker has an upper half showing the actual rating limits for the actual vehicle, and a lower half with a separate heading. 


The lower half shows the SAE J2807 based structural limits of the hitch receiver and frame.   They sort of say it there by general reference to the SAE standard, but it’s not clear enough what they are providing in that lower half. 
 

 


The upper half of the sticker is what law enforcement is going to look at.

The lower half of the sticker is certainly not 100% correct for my truck. My sticker states 1,450# max conventional tongue weight, which is most certainly wrong. That tongue weight was set where it is because the max conventional trailer weight is 14,500# for my truck and they just took 10% of that and called it the max tongue weight. The hitch on our trucks is rated for up to 2,000# tongue weight. Even at 2,000# tongue weight I would not be over RGAWR (7,250#), or any other weight rating on the upper sticker without another 2,050# of payload for my truck (4,050# payload on my sticker).

I've already towed a few hundred miles with 1,700# on my tongue. The day any 1-ton truck cannot tow any conventional hitch trailer is the day they need to redesign that truck.

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2 hours ago, Another JR said:

In the end, all the app is doing (if it’s programmed correctly) is helping you stay within all of the limits.

I totally agree.  But what are we to believe?  The app or the sticker on our trucks?  That was my contention.  TFL brought up a great point and is this true?  That's all I want to know.

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1 hour ago, Dr1ft3r said:


The upper half of the sticker is what law enforcement is going to look at.

The lower half of the sticker is certainly not 100% correct for my truck. My sticker states 1,450# max conventional tongue weight, which is most certainly wrong. That tongue weight was set where it is because the max conventional trailer weight is 14,500# for my truck and they just took 10% of that and called it the max tongue weight. The hitch on our trucks is rated for up to 2,000# tongue weight. Even at 2,000# tongue weight I would not be over RGAWR (7,250#), or any other weight rating on the upper sticker without another 2,050# of payload for my truck (4,050# payload on my sticker).

I've already towed a few hundred miles with 1,700# on my tongue. The day any 1-ton truck cannot tow any conventional hitch trailer is the day they need to redesign that truck.

I was trying to keep my answer simplified regarding SAE J2807. It really looks at cooling in a severe climb, minimum speed in a severe climb, handling and understeer due to front end unweighting, acceleration at GCWR, braking at GCWR, and some other things.
 

Compliance with all of the requirements is shown with certain requirements placed on the trailer configuration for the tests, one of which is that the tongue load is 10% of the total trailer weight. So they have to use that value in the vehicle limits because it’s the value they used in showing compliance with the standard. What you don’t know is whether any of the characteristics caused by high tongue weight, like handling and understeer, set the trailer weight limits. I agree with you that on these 3500 trucks that’s unlikely. Cooling or minimum speed in the prescribed climb almost undoubtedly set the GCWR for the 3500 configurations, and probably also the 2500s.  (My daughter’s longtime boyfriend has done these tests as a manufacturer engineer, and he’s said you’d be surprised how hot the rear differential gets, and that this climb significantly sets the design of the rear axle and differential.)
 

Here is SAE J2807 if you want to read it yourself. 
 

https://fifthwheelst.com/documents/tow-test-standards-2016-02.pdf

Edited by Another JR
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13 minutes ago, Another JR said:

 

I was trying to keep my answer simplified regarding SAE J2807. It really looks at cooling in a severe climb, minimum speed in a severe climb, handling and understeer due to front end unweighting, acceleration at GCWR, braking at GCWR, and some other things.
 

Compliance with all of the requirements is shown with certain requirements placed on the trailer configuration for the tests, one of which is that the tongue load is 10% of the total trailer weight. So they have to use that value in the vehicle limits because it’s the value they used in showing compliance with the standard. What you don’t know is whether any of the characteristics caused by high tongue weight, like handling and understeer, set the trailer weight limits. I agree with you that on these 3500 trucks that’s unlikely. Cooling or minimum speed in the prescribed climb almost undoubtedly set the GCWR for the 3500 configurations, and probably also the 2500s.  (My daughter’s longtime boyfriend has done these tests as a manufacturer engineer, and he’s said you’d be surprised how hot the rear differential gets, and that this climb significantly sets the design of the rear axle and differential.)
 

Here is SAE J2807 if you want to read it yourself. 
 

https://fifthwheelst.com/documents/tow-test-standards-2016-02.pdf

 

Thanks for the PDF. Some good info in there.

I wouldn't ever attempt to tow more weight than the sticker states (14,500# conventional). Especially since I live in the Rocky Mountains and I have a lot of steep grades to contend with. The truck did feel a little light in the front end when ascending the mountains with 1,700# tongue weight, but it didn't feel light to the point of being unsafe to me. This was also before I installed my steel bumper and grille guard this week. Soon I'll have a winch up front too. So the light feeling on the front end will surely be gone with an extra 400#+ on the nose of the front end to counteract the tongue weight.

A WDH would also have transferred enough weight to counteract the lighter front end as well.

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The towing sticker can be off some due to the way SAE calculates vehicles with over 8600 lb GVW.  The towing calculation for that MODEL is based on base vehicle mass.  For vehicles under 8600 lbs, the towing calculation for that MODEL uses EPA mass which means you include every option with over 33% take rate into the vehicle mass.  

 

For GM's towing sticker, the payload and curb mass are VIN specific.  The towing numbers are MODEL specific based on SAE calculation.  For HD trucks, the conventional towing number is usually accurate because it's usually restricted by handling or due to 2.5 hitch and isn't restricted by mass calculations.  The GN numbers can be off by a few thousand pounds due to them being mass constrained.  

 

The issue with the High County is it has a curb mass significantly higher than work truck mass and with the SAE the High County is GVW restricted while the work truck is GCW.   This means the High County loses 6.67 pounds on gooseneck trailering per pound increase in curb mass.

 

For HD segment, the SAE cal uses base vehicle mass (work truck mass) + 300lbs passengers + 100 lbs cargo + 120 lbs hitch equipment + 15% pin ( raise trailer weight until you hit gvw, gcw, or rgawr).  So, if your passengers weigh more, you haul more cargo, you have heavy ass slider hitch, and/or have pin over 15% the sticker wouldn't be able to haul what is on the sticker if GM used the curb mass of the truck.

 

The only weigh to be accurate is to use app.  On the app, you can put the curb weight in, passenger weight, cargo weight, hitch weight and it will output the max trailer weight.  

 

As a rule of thumb, I generally tell people if you are hauling GN or fifth wheels when you get 70 to 75% you should consider moving up to next higher capable model.

 

There is nothing new for this trailer label for 2024.  The trucks from 2020 all have the similar issue.

 

If you compare similarly equipped F250, Ram 2500, GM 2500 you will see similar drops in GN towing.  

 

#iworkforGM

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I caught this when I first watched the video and figured it had something to do with their altitude and the Gooseneck. 

I didnt catch what they said the dry trailer weighed ?  thats one beefy trailer for sure. 

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