Tin…

OnTheReel · March 21

As some may know, I have been tracking and collecting virtually every UOA from anyone with a Hellcat powered vehicle. Probably at least 50 at this point. These two latest samples hit me…both Red Line 0w40. The tin levels in these are very unusual for this platform. Blackstone universal average is 2 PPM but honestly the vast majority of samples I’ve seen including my own are at zero so it’s quite strange to see.

The VOA I have of Red Line 0w40 from 2021 does look a bit different:

Tin as an additive? Poor sampling practices? Reaction to a recent chemistry change in Red Line? Coincidence? I have theories but curious…

customboss · March 22

Old, or racing formulations of REDLINE that I’ve mentioned contain lead/ tin napthenate.

Or these units changed their plugs and used a lot of antiseize.

newdude · March 22

11 minutes ago, OnTheReel said:

As some may know, I have been tracking and collecting virtually every UOA from anyone with a Hellcat powered vehicle. Probably at least 50 at this point. These two latest samples hit me…both Red Line 0w40. The tin levels in these are very unusual for this platform. Blackstone universal average is 2 PPM but honestly the vast majority of samples I’ve seen including my own are at zero so it’s quite strange to see.

The VOA I have of Red Line 0w40 from 2021 does look a bit different:

Tin as an additive? Poor sampling practices? Reaction to a recent chemistry change in Red Line? Coincidence? I have theories but curious…

Tin = Possible bearing wear, correct?

Copper seems high, no? Could the tin be a result of the copper count, which could then imply its from bronze wearing from the bearings?

OnTheReel · March 22

The cooper is actually totally normal for this platform. The oil cooler leaches like nobody’s business. The rest of the wear metals look pretty good too. Again, just for this platform. The Hemi’s shed iron like crazy.

Grumpy Bear · March 22

@customboss, dumb question perhaps but why is Sulphur not reported in UOA's?

customboss · March 22

It essentially is or was in mine. Sulfation. SO3. Oxidized sulfur a good way to see its effects.
$$$$ is why most labs won’t show it on FTIR.

newdude · March 22

13 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

The cooper is actually totally normal for this platform. The oil cooler leaches like nobody’s business. The rest of the wear metals look pretty good too. Again, just for this platform. The Hemi’s shed iron like crazy.

Interesting.

Grumpy Bear · March 22

1 hour ago, customboss said:

It essentially is or was in mine. Sulfation. SO3. Oxidized sulfur a good way to see its effects.
$$$$ is why most labs won’t show it on FTIR.

Interesting. What were you looking at as a condemnation level or was it not a trigger and you learned something other? Edu-ma-cate me please

1 hour ago, newdude said:

Interesting.

Copper has always been in the 20 ppm range in Peppers UOA's as well. We've thought cooler leaching was the most likely cause as well.

customboss · March 22

SO3 showed how the sulfur compounds in oil formulations stood in action. Reacting with the unit, the fuel if a engine, and the additives and bases themselves.

You must get over to read about NEOL. There's a new chemistry in town there........say goodbye to ZDDP?

OnTheReel · March 22

Red Line 5w50 for comparison. Iron wear rate is in the neighborhood of 65% lower than the universal average (average based on 2900 miles vs 4900 in this sample)

It’s viscosity, stupid. Or what does @Grumpy Bear say? Viscosity matters!

Edited March 22 by OnTheReel

customboss · March 22

1 hour ago, OnTheReel said:

Red Line 5w50 for comparison. Iron wear rate is in the neighborhood of 65% lower than the universal average (average based on 2900 miles vs 4900 in this sample)

It’s viscosity, stupid. Or what does @Grumpy Bear say? Viscosity matters!

Not arguing the point but remember

the universe of BKlabs can be misleading. It’s not always uniform nor a proper set statistically.
No one argues viscosity can lower wear but so can many other things.

ideally we all run sub 0-70 engine oils and get protection and flow.

I formulated fluorine’s that can do that but they cost alot and ft or some reason people don’t like it ending up in water.

OnTheReel · March 23

5 hours ago, customboss said:

Not arguing the point but remember

the universe of BKlabs can be misleading. It’s not always uniform nor a proper set statistically.
No one argues viscosity can lower wear but so can many other things.

ideally we all run sub 0-70 engine oils and get protection and flow.

I formulated fluorine’s that can do that but they cost alot and ft or some reason people don’t like it ending up in water.

Well, a lot of what Blackstone does is misleading. I don’t suspect the trace fuel reading is all that accurate either. Hell, even their own flashpoint reading kinda disagrees…

I’ll just say this, I download every sample I can find online for this platform (and some that people send me directly now), and ~2.5 PPM Fe/ 1k is basically unheard of on these old iron block dinosaurs, especially run up to a 5k interval. I think people would be happy with that rate even on an LS motor. Granted this operator isn’t an idiot either and lets everything come up to temp and treats it properly. Probably the biggest variable.

If you got any of that miracle Fluorine on the shelf, send it over for testing. Promise I won’t dump it in the lake.

Edited March 23 by OnTheReel

Grumpy Bear · March 23

7 hours ago, OnTheReel said:

Red Line 5w50 for comparison. Iron wear rate is in the neighborhood of 65% lower than the universal average (average based on 2900 miles vs 4900 in this sample)

It’s viscosity, stupid. Or what does @Grumpy Bear say? Viscosity matters!

What I say is, most of these oils share a very similar AW package. At least API licensed oils do. That the case, viscosity is the tool you have left. Darn few oils contain over 1K ppm Phosphorus. Now, that said...once bearing wear is in check it is HTHS viscosity that will have an impact on bore/ring wear more than bulk 100 C viscosity. And if you haven't noticed the SAE has a lid on HTHS for grading purposes at 3.7 cP.

Red Line and a few others don't listen much to the SAE. Red Line HP 5W50 comes in at 5.0 HTHS. They have a 10W60 that goes 5.8 cP. Not my recommendation for a Honda but.....What I am saying is there are oils in YOUR GRADE that don't lay on the bottom of the HTHS spec and the bottom of the AW package either. There are some robust 20 weights out there with better than 30 weight HTHS values the are shear stable.

5 hours ago, customboss said:

No one argues viscosity can lower wear but so can many other things.

ideally we all run sub 0-70 engine oils and get protection and flow.

Bingo! Memorialize this post!

Argument I've been making for some time now is since the EPA is leveraging the blenders into removing the ZDDP and Sulphur AND they really haven't caught up with alternatives; viscosity is a pretty big bullet that can be effective. And they are trying to get rid of viscosity as well. I don't think we can run on air bearings yet.

That add package should compliment the base and not the other way around. Let oil (base) do what it supposed to then fill in the weaknesses with the additives. Assuming wear is your primary goal.

They have this idea to run on additives and use the base as a carrier. Additives are consumed and this, "Run your oil forever" thing going on is a setup for failure.

How many times have I said, "There is no perfect oil, Just some darn good ones".

customboss · March 23

6 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

they really haven't caught up with alternatives;

I’m trying to share some here.

Grumpy Bear · March 23

1 hour ago, customboss said:

I’m trying to share some here.

It isn't lost on me my friend and I'm not ignoring your efforts.

In fact I'm ears up and paying attention. Applauding that effort!

But for now, I'm forced to work with what we can buy AND is both proven AND has a track record in the work a day world long enough to inspire confidence base on data. Not wishes, theory, lab trials and marketing. I'm that guy that lets someone else run a new chemistry for a few hundred thousand miles with data instead of anecdote. :dunno: