VicFirth

FWIW, HPL uses diester (adipate) and not POE.

Guy had 117k on 17 V6 Colorado. Started consuming oil between oil changes after running Mobil 1 and Pennzoil Platinum all its life. Switched to Valvoline Restore and Protect and it stopped. I can't speak on the Mobil 1 Triple Action as that is a new formulation, but some of the Extended Performance oils from the prior version didn't have the solvency to keep piston rings as clean as I would have expected. Valvoline Restore continues to impress. Had this guy used Red Line, Amsoil SS, HPL, the piston rings would have arguably better in better shape. I'm speculating of course. HPL is touted as having the most solvency of any synthetic. No idea if true. It's loaded with a lot of additives though.

I read Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 could be using mPAO and a diblock polymer. https://www.infineuminsight.com/en-gb/articles/the-diblock-advantage/ In this series, the Mobil 1 held its viscosity the best.

A comparison of Mobil 1 0w-40 oils. Notice the 0w40 SP FS has an oxidation value of 8.7. The others are upper 30's. Also, note the before and after shear stability (Viscosity @ 100C). The ESP X3, C40 GT are more shear stable than FS 0w40 and Supercar 0w40. However, three of them have some type of group v while the FS 0w40 does not. The Mobil 1 0w40's with ester look like great oils.

Skip to 10:50 "We do use base oils for sure in this group V area."

If we go by what virgin oxidations show, Red Line followed by Amsoil SS have the highest values. There are so many esters its hard to know which ones they are using. I've seen rumors suggesting Amsoil uses proprietary esters from Croda. I have no way of proving so who knows.

Yeah unfortunately that was his response what I posted above. If Dave G. was there I'd be able to find out. He was the guy that told me some grades of Red Line use up to 40% POE. I think there was a tweak recently. The only main difference is the mg level. There was a 2022 or so FTIR done on the ROC site which showed Noack 4.7% for Red Line 5w30 Euro. Substantial POE

High Performance.

I just received this from Red Line FYI

B/S Labs finally getting with the program. Also, notice in the Red Line UOA that TAN>TBN. Oil is shot and now acidic.

Just based on what I've seen so far I don't think the newer stuff keeps engines as clean. I say this based on miscellaneous photos and videos over the last few years, some from Engineering Explained when they visited XOM. There was an individual that ran nothing but Mobil 1 0w20 EP (SN+) version for 50k miles. He put HPL in and found a lot of carbon in oil filter. That particular iteration of Mobil 1 was mostly PAO and probably had a dash of AN if I had to guess. Not enough to keep engine internals pristine. The modern approach seems to be keep oxidation at bay as long as possible but reduce detergents and solvency.

I remember the days of Bryn Mawr Stereo. My dad was a big audiophile always having the latest and best stereo equipment. I miss that place.

For the longest time the wording Mobil used on their PDS was interesting. For the EP and regular Mobil 1 they would state "high performance base oils". However, for the 0w40 which at the time had a virgin oxidation reading of 36 because of POE, they used the words "Ultra-high performance base oils". In other words, the ULTRA high end base oils are the group V. Mobil 1 0w40 SP now has an oxidation value of 10 while Mobil 1 0w40 GT, ESPx3 and 4 are still mid 30's. But as shown above, Mobil ventured into the cosmetic industry and also started using bio sourced materials for the current Triple Action line. So it's really hard to know what is what and what is best....

I find it interesting that they save the Group V for SS. All of their other oils excluding Dominator, show oxidation values <12. This suggests to me that it's about cost cutting. I could be wrong so don't hold me to that lol.

What I like about Red Line though is they really don't bullshit at all. They state their oils are PAO and Ester and they are. In fact in 2022 or 2023 they switched to an even better PAO. Per MSDS the % of PAO is 60-70% so plenty of room for signficant POE. I also like their response was that basically they use the same PAO and Ester base stock blend across their Euro and HP line with the only differences being additive levels and combinations. They also heavily fortify. Now if sulphated ash is as much of a problem as some say, then maybe HPL and Red Line aren't ideal for all engines but I think that is up for debate.

It appears to truly be a new class of oil in what it can achieve using unconventional method/additive or base oil.

On the ROC, they subjected M1 ESP 5w30 and M1 ESP 0w20 to the shear stability test. What they found was the viscosity went up after the test. This is likely due to the diblock polymers. Per ROC, they also claim there could be some mPAO in current SP M1 5w30 ESP. "Both of these structures have good thickening efficiency and shear stability index. However, only the diblock is able to form self-assembled micelle structures when dissolved in base oil, which provides unique performance benefits in modern formulations." Conclusions The work undertaken by Infineum clearly demonstrates the advantages diblock HSD VMs can deliver to crankcase lubricants. The tuneable molecular structures, excellent soot handling capabilities and good shear stability mean they can provide significant benefits. However, to meet evolving industry requirements, Infineum has optimised the HSD diblock chemistry so that it delivers superior performance in lower viscosity grade oils formulated using higher quality base stocks at lower polymer treat rate than current diblock technology. These advanced chemistries are being used to create lubricants that can help automotive OEMs as they work to address today’s key drivers for change.

I'm not custom but I can tell you AN won't show any oxidation value. Mobil is using some in their EP line and TSUV oil.

So far no one has cracked the code with the Valvoline RP. Remains a mystery and unique. Virgin oxidation value is 6 for Restore and Protect. It uses boron ester additive at about 166ppm.

Something I've noticed. Amsoil seems to save the group V for their SS line. Their recent Euro oils show oxidation values under 10, much like new Mobil 1 oils. In fact, Amsoil XL, high mileage and others all show oxidation under 15 now. Saving money by cutting the ester out of other lines? What's interesting to me is the ultra-premium lubricants like Red Line, Torco, Amsoil SS, HPL etc. all have one common denominator - they all use a good dose of group V. Mobil has moved on to either using AN or something more exotic and newer. I question whether some of the so called "cleanliess boosters" found in patents can match the tried-and-true ester solvency. Amsoil also seems to half ass their Euro oils. SS is their top of the line, no chemical restrictions oil. With the Euro it's as if they're on the fence barely any better than what you can find off th shelf. "Mobil 1 has developed a breakthrough engine oil in collaboration with Honda Research and Development and Red Bull Racing Honda. The result of a multi-year research program to improve on the high standards set by the current Mobil 1 used by the Red Bull Racing Honda team. ExxonMobil evaluated non-traditional lubricant components in pursuit of break-through performance. As an example, materials from the cosmetics industry were incorporated to enhance the product’s protective properties. The complex formulation is a careful balance of materials each designed to deliver specific performance benefits including more than 25% bio-sourced content and low ash additive chemistry." "What was a long shot a few years ago - a vision of a low ash, high temperature, low friction engine oil that incorporates bio-based components became a reality this year, thanks to the efforts of our whole team, in collaboration with Honda and Red Bull. "We believe that this new platform will offer us opportunities into the future."" https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/how-secret-cosmetics-chemical-is-helping-red-bulls-f1-charge/6621339/

By the way, Valvoline Restore & Protect works. Everyone that uses it reports lower oil consumption and cleaning.

Grump is this a recent or current formulation? Looks like it.

To give you an idea, here is Red Line HP 5w40 (non Euro) with a virgin oxidation value of 129. This is likely the one that contains the most POE if I had to guess.

I was able to speak to one of Red Line's tech guys before they moved locations to TN. I asked him directly that they advertise their oils as being ester based and some are questioning whether they use substantial POE. He said some grades range from 20-40%. The 40% is likely the 40 grade which has or had a virgin oxidation of 129. So I would say Red Line's POE content likely ranges from 15-40% in some grades. The guy that told me this can be trusted too.

Red Line is still PAO/POE. A good amount of POE too, especially compared to most other synthetic oils on the market. "Our SP/SN+ oils such as our 0W-20, 0W-30 and our Euro series 5W-30 and 5W-40. The products will have slightly different formulation such a reduced anti-wear package(zinc, phosphorus and molly and will have lower detergents and will meet ACEA C2(mid sap) ratings. Even though these oils have a somewhat reduced formulation compared to other “euro ”products, Our products will still offer high quality PAO and Ester base stocks along with an enhanced protection package that will make them superior to other European oils. When comparing the new lower ash European oils to our regular High-performance oils where SAPS and café are not as critical, we will have an enhanced level of Zinc, Molly ,and Phosphorus and higher detergency but still, offering the same high quality PAO/Ester Base stocks that would also make them superior to the lower ash European oils. All Red Line products are full synthetic Group IV/Group V Ester base stocks with enhanced levels of Zinc. Phosphorus and Molly for better protection and performance. Hope this helps. Thanks Tyler Technical services"