Grumpy Bear

Here's some info James from Wikipedia: In the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, ATF contained whale oil as a friction modifier. But since whale oil would break down at higher temperatures, cars produced in the 1970s and later would not be able to use whale oil because of the higher engine coolant temperatures employed to reduce emissions and save fuel. A moratorium on whale oil at that time prevented the continued production of older ATF such as the original DEXRON formulation (Type B), and the Type A which preceded it. And at this point I need to make a clarification. I said: "The very term synthetic has been dumbed down so hard it hardly means anything today. It use to mean any lubricant not derived from mineral oil". That should read: It use to mean any lubricant not derived from a naturally occurring substance. PAO's are indeed a synthetic produced from Olefins which are manufactured from mineral oil but not naturally occurring thus....synthesized. It's kind of what the word means. When a Group III is hydrotreated the carbon bonds are fully filled. The new molecules however are also naturally occurring. I don't consider them a synthetic. Nothing has been synthesized. The deck was just shuffled after adding more aces and removing the duces. The Government disagrees and sides with the Oil Lobby. This muddies the water to the point you haven't a clue what's what unless the manufacture is forthcoming. I.E. Amsoil and Red Line don't mind telling you what the base stocks are thus...I use them. Mobil lied by omission thus I kick them to the curb. Anyway back to you James. Thank you for the specifics of your system. I figured you had to have at least one additional cooler. This gives me a tangible value for future work on this system. That is very helpful. Nick thanks for the breakdown. You've been very helpful.

James, interesting that your temperatures are all below my old thermostat trigger point of 192F which makes me wonder if your pre K2XX even has a thermostat. My box after gutting the thermostat housing is running almost identical to yours. What engine coolant thermostat does yours have and does yours have more fluid cooler than the internal tank exchanger? That is, a secondary air/fluid exchanger factory or otherwise. As far at the chart predating synthetics. Well...synthetics have been around a long time now. Amsoil has been into synthetic products since 1972, right Nick? In the 70's manufactures discontinued using whale oils as friction modifiers in ATF. Those burn very quickly. 1972 is about the year they started upping the coolant temperatures for emissions which killed the whale oils quickly. I can't be dogmatic about it but I would have to say this chart is post the whale oil era. We were still using it at Chevron in the 80's. There is also this. The very term synthetic has been dumbed down so hard it hardly means anything today. It use to mean any lubricant not derived from mineral oil. Now you can hydro-finish a group 2 stock and call it a synthetic. You can put a truck load of Group I, if it is the carrier oil for the add pack, into an POA and still call it a synthetic even if the add pack is 30% of the can. Saturating the carbon bonds certainly helps delay oxidation but it does not prevent it. This game they play with the word synthetic is the very reason I use Group IV/V fluids. Delco is a group III syn. I have no idea what Amsoil is. Redline I know and have been using their products for about 25 years. I would expect Delco syn is covered by this chart. GM's thermostat choices and change intervals are dead in line with this chart and a group III syn.

http://transmissionrepairguy.com/transmission-temperature-gauge/ Spurshot posted this link in another thread. This is a great resource I wanted to preserve for quick reference. This isn't transmission life. It's transmission fluid life and fluid is the life of the transmission. When the boys did the pan install they let Pepper idle for a half hour. The time it took to peak the transmission temperature with the 180 F coolant thermostat and gutted trans stat. That temperature was 192 F. It use to peak on a hot day over 225 F unloaded Interstate speed temperatures. Worse on State roads on long steep grades. First change came at 50K and it was mildly discolored but odor free. Now I know why the book says 45K. Oh am I ever glad that I drive the way I did for those first 50,000 miles. To me that says GM knows the even with their Group III Dexron 6 synthetic fluid they recognize there is a limit to mineral oil...even good ones. An admission by procedure. It's why in addition to coolers and lower thermostats I use Ester/POA blended fluids. Highest I've seen 'in service' has been in town after a few hours on the Interstate. I leave the big road between 150 and 156 F but a few minutes of reduced pump rate through the exchanger elevates it to about 175 F. Perfect!!

Really? Do they both got from point A to point B? The extra 40K is for what? No really. For what? So you can get noticed by every other truck that looks just like yours? 30K or 70K you get the same 2 mill crap paint. The same frame and coachwork. Is a fancy computer, stereo and leather worth 40K? Ego is what your spending that cash on. Has nothing to do with transportation.

That's a nice project you have there.

Told the wife some years ago after the bailouts; "When they can no longer find ways to earn my money they will devise ways to STEAL it legally". She thought me a nut then...not so much now. They however I meant in a much larger context but this is a good example. Extortion it is then. These prices are twice what I paid for my 2015!!! No sir, they are NOT twice the truck. This isn't the first time this has been tried. Remember the early 70's? Locked us out of your cars....for a while.....better computer tech now. Maybe it will stick.

1955 Task Force is introduced with the all new 265 V8. The write up that year sounds allot like this one. Shinny!!!! New!!!!! Improved!!! Some old, same old decade after decade. See what you young ones have to look forward too.

Here ya go per your request. RCSB on stock rims and tires. 2" King coil over level with 600# springs on a Bell 2" knuckle drop and out back a set of 15% softer 2" drop Deaver multi-leaf leaves in Sulastic hangers plus the 1.26" block is removed and King OEM shocks. 1/2" total up front and 3.5" out back. 1" rake. Rear tubs are Line-X finished to kill visual space and corrosion protection.

Everything new is the next best thing since sliced bread....until it isn't. How long does that take? Yea...like minutes.

Your welcome for nothing. I think..... Not looking for a fight Mook, looking for accurate information to flow in BOTH directions. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have enough time or money left to waste either. It didn't hit me when you first posted how odd the claim was based solely on the thermostat settings. I reacted to the delivery and not the information. My bad and I apologize. I commend you for manning up and sharing there may be an input issue. Oddly, the exchange seems to be for 'something' then, eh? Something else had to be amiss. Looks like there are several issues. Yes the sensor; but also an understanding of the differing truck systems and TIME. You can slap a hot iron and not burn your fingers but you can't hold them their for long. 45 minutes isn't long enough I would expect. It wasn't for mine. Use to take about 90 minutes on a hot day and over two hours in mid winter. Since the Thermostat was modified it takes about 20 miles on a warm day. We well see about winter but I expect it to take much less time as the cooler is a heater until the fluid reaches water temperature. The biggest reason I did it. Rapid warm ups. Get those fluids to operating temperature and lessen the viscous drag. Yes we get 100+ days here. Just not as many of them thankfully. 85 F seems about normal here. John A (a member here) was very helpful and squared me up on the differences between the V6 and V8 systems and they vary some by year in the K2 line. I believe he mentioned that the trans stat in the V8 is about 10 F colder than the 192 F in the V6 models as well? You could PM him and check that if your interested. His knowledge is greater than mine on these system. I know Pepper very well but he knows the entire lineup.

8/8/2018 trip. 365 miles / 12.104 gallons = 30.2 mpg at 62 mph (100 kph) . Measured and metered. Day 84 F. 86 F AIT, Trans 150-154 F, ECT 182-184 F, Oil 206-208 F. It will hold these number on even a 100 F day. Factory water thermostat is 207F. Unless it's stuck open coolant temperature can not be lower than that. Sure you want to claim it only 10 degree warmer? Your at 192 F? Really? Closer to 210-212 F, 25+ degrees higher is more like it. I'll need an explanation of how your transmission holds low to mid 160's (10 over mine) on a hundred degree day for 500 miles with the factory trans cooler in the hot tank and the factory thermostat. The factory set up will run near 200 F in the winter at 0 F in about 100 miles. Your not on the cooler until the thermostat opens. Something well north of 165 F. 20-30 F more. Something is amiss...... Like the idea that saying a thing so makes it so perhaps.

Ya know someone is going to ask so it might as well be me. As you have just done a back to back from stock, please, compare the ride change.

Just a though. The trans and 12+ quarts of fluid is a big heat sink. By 4 AM or so the fluid and ambient are likely very close. By 6 or 7 am the air temp has risen but the larger heat sink taking longer to heat lags behind. Mine is behind some days and ahead some others. Never tried matching it to the evenings temperature cycle. There is this as well. The ambient sensor in my truck will go down 10 or so after being started and moving down the road. My Honda does that too. That sensor is very near the cowl and easy to bake.

I was just looking at this photo and thinking to myself how ridiculous the K2's look stance wise from the factory. The space between the rear tire and fender lip use to be three and a half inches greater.

Built, Rebuilt...not Bought

Getting on with the other vehicles I made the run to Peoria for fluids. A trip of a bit over 300 miles. 370 the routes I took which were about 70% Interstate and the remainder highway and small town Illinois. Used 12.53 gallons of fuel doing 60-62 for the Interstate portions, up 5 to 7 mph and 53 mph on the State and Federal roads. 50 on county. Rough road that county R-40. So 29.53 MPG for the trip. Low 80's with what wind there was building through out the day from 2 to about 10 mph NNE. For the most part at my back at the lower velocities going down and in my face and stiffer coming home. I learned some things driving a bit faster. 1.) I wasn't the only fella out there doing 55 in the 70 zones. Passing them ain't that big a deal. 2.) There are a ton of Illinois short haul trucks with 60 mph governors on them. 3.) Those trucks will attempt a pass that last for MILES and finally get aggravated enough to just pull over into your lane forcing you to brake OR get broke. 57-58 up the hill, 60-63 down the hill. Funny to watch. I just back down a few and let them in, then pick it back up when I have a safe distance between us. Okay so it's only one point and I can't call it a trend but it was eye opening and for the most part comfortable enough to keep. So Dad, change of topic, says he drove from his home to Des Moines and back, a distance of about 300 miles with his new to him 2010 Buick Lucerne 3.9 and got 22 mpg round trip. I mentioned that sounds a bit low for that motor. He smiles his 90 year old smile and says, "Doing 90 mph both ways" and laughs. I ask him what it gets at say 70 mph (Iowa's Interstate limit). "Don't have a clue", he replies, "never drive that slow".

Checking out at the store, the young cashier suggested to the much older lady that she should bring her own grocery bags, because plastic bags are not good for the environment. The woman apologized to the young girl and explained, "We didn't have this 'green thing' back in my earlier days." The young clerk responded, "That's our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generations." The older lady said our generation didn't have the "green thing" in its day. Back then, we returned milk bottles, soda bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over. So they really were recycled. But we didn't have the "green thing" back in our day. Grocery stores bagged our groceries in brown paper bags that we reused for numerous things. Most memorable besides household garbage bags was the use of brown paper bags as book covers for our school books. This was to ensure that public property (the books provided for our use by the school) was not defaced by our scribbling. Then we were able to personalize our books on the brown paper bags. We walked up stairs because we didn't have an escalator in every store and office building. We walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time we had to go two blocks. But she was right. We didn't have the "green thing" in our day. Back then we washed the baby's diapers because we didn't have the throw away kind. We dried clothes on a line, not in an energy-gobbling machine burning up 220 volts. Wind and solar power really did dry our clothes back in our early days. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing. But that young lady is right; we didn't have the "green thing" back in our day. Back then we had one TV, or radio, in the house -- not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief (remember them?), not a screen the size of the state of Montana. In the kitchen we blended and stirred by hand because we didn't have electric machines to do everything for us. When we packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, we used wadded up old newspapers to cushion it, not Styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap. Back then, we didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. We used a push mower that ran on human power. We exercised by working so we didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity. We drank from a fountain when we were thirsty instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time we had a drink of water. We refilled writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and we replaced the razor blade in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull. Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their bikes to school or walked instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service in the family's $45,000 SUV or van, which cost what a whole house did before the "green thing." We had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And we didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal beamed from satellites 23,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest burger joint. But isn't it sad the current generation laments how wasteful we old folks were just because we didn't have the "green thing" back then? We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to tic us off. Especially from a tattooed, multiple pierced dummy who can't make change without the cash register telling them how much. Don't regret growing old....it is a privilege denied to many!

I have about 90% of all original planned modifications done and things will be slowing down and my speeds will be a bit quicker now that I am satisfied with the current heat management layout. This will cost me a bit of fuel and I'm good with that. I was very pleased when the OEM transmission pan was pulled and we found zero glitter in the basement. That's a first in my experience. I have a tweak here and there and I would still like to do that re-gear but summer is passing me by. Seven other vehicles also need some attention.

65,000 mile service. 5 Quarts QSUD 5W20 and a WIX filter. Check and top fluids. Trans on the money. Tire rotation. Lots of miles left in these Michelins. Check, check and double check for anything amiss and nada. Gave her a good bath. Found a few rock chips that need some attention. Nothing major.

The Immigrant This Dutch windmill located in Fulton Illinois is not "old wood" but was built in the Netherlands and assembled on it's current location by Dutch Craftsman. A fully functioning grist mill. It was on the 400 mile trip today shaking down the new parts and fluids. Here's what I can say about the PML trans pan. It takes longer to bring things to heat. Peak temperatures are lower, running temperatures are lower and recovery....meh. By lower I mean by a few degrees. Enough to measure but not enough to matter unless your up against some limit. For instance, slowing through larger towns use to bring the trans up to 173 F and todays 87 F weather never broke 168F. Running number is down 3 degrees. Heats right up to the 100 F TCM trigger point but takes longer to get to 150 F by say another 20 miles. It's three greatest features are two extra quarts (2.5 in my case) and case strength. Acts like a case brace. A drain plug.

You are absolutely correct. Well played. An example of a perfectly civil and thoughtful response. It can be done. Thank you.

One fella likes 6.2 liter blown CCSB's on 37" AT tires. 7" lifts. Lightbars, headache racks. 500 lb. bumpers with a Titanic capable winch pulling through 4.88 gears and drives aggressively 80/85 mph everywhere he goes with the AC on and the AMP's cracking his skull so he doesn't hear the roar of his muffler delete being drown by his tires. He believes 10W40 is for 'real' trucks as well as 140 in the diffs. He gets 8 mpg and is constantly in a state of repairing this or that. Second fella likes RCSB V-6 on -1 size tires slightly lowered. Lightest fluids his heat management will allow and still provide acceptable drive line life. Rarely runs ether AC or radio except Cub's games. Drives at or under the speed limit. Is fanatical about how he maintains his tires and alignments and keeps what he can inside the trucks envelope. Leggy gears and moderate driving choices and he gets 27 mpg. Can't remember the last time he replaced anything but a light bulb. Know what these two fellas have in common? They are getting the direct results of the physics, mathematics and chemistries they choose to employ. Know what these two fellas differences are? The physics, mathematics and chemistries they choose to employ. That's one Paradigm. And the other would be........

70,000 Mile Service 7/24/2018 6 Quarts Red Line 0W20 WIX Filter 5,000 Intervals PML Alloy 8 Quart Transmission Pan & GM Filter. Pepper now has a drain plug and 2.5 quarts more capacity. Painted the pan yesterday with Rustoleum BBQ 1200 F flat black. 2nd Red Line D6 Fluid drop and fill. Now 78.6% Red Line D6 / 21.4% AC Delco OEM Factory Fill Tires measure .215 center ribs. Rotated and balanced. 3 more oil changes? Maybe. Set 31 psig cold pressure at 75 F. Up 3 psig. Gave her a bath and continued the under hood detailing. Serviced filters and filled fluids. Fuel: Lifetime 70K average 26.78 mpg (matches pervious year high) Current 6 point moving average 29.9 mpg (Best 30.1 mpg) 24 point moving average 29.6 mpg (2017 years best 28.2 mpg) Best single tank 31.8 mpg Worst single tank 22.9 mpg 1702.3 clock hours for a lifetime average 41.12 mph. Two bottles of Chevron Techron to a full tank and a quick Italian tune-up. 5,000 mile intervals.

James Butler "Wild Bill" Hickok. Homer Illinois AKA Troy Grove was a destination for Sunday. Yes I driver her for more than testing. But I can multitask. 70 mph netted 25 mpg and small change. Now that it's been done, it's done. Been to his gave in South Dakota too. I also like history. For those that say if you haven't a photo, it didn't happen. Here's your photo. It happened.

It's about information and how it's used to leverage an advantage. But yes determination is key indeed. Glad you like it. And thank you for your support. You have a nice sense of humor. Cute device. I believe there is or was an E assist is a few markets. We almost bought a Buick Lacrosse with E-assist but the wife thought the car was 'to old' for her. I wouldn't be apposed but not for this project. Pepper is special. She's an anomaly. Back in the 50's - early 70's getting nice gains was a cake walk the tech was so weak. Today it's a rare bird that leaves anything on the table. Pepper has the fortune to be a 3/4 sibling to the 5.3 and for whatever reasons only GM can explain they decided to build in some fat that doesn't exist in the larger V8's. That last graph is a common technique used in almost any R&D lab as are most of the charts and graphs I use. First year stuff really. Point is they are tools anyone can use to see where they are, how much cushion they have and point one in a direction to reap some benefit. All it really takes is an open mind and a calculator and note pad. Yes you can use your slide rule.