Grumpy Bear

This is and interesting thread.

James: 255/70R17. I use an altimeter to judge a long straights general slope. Luke: The cushion has molded into it the pad the senses weight. Something of a strain gauge I'm being told. It has a twenty pound voltage trigger to tell the air bag on the passenger side to arm or remain disengaged. I expect this is more for insurance than for safety. A bag that doesn't deploy on frontal impact when no one is in that seat is major cost savings for them. I get the reasons just not the treachery and greed.

I may. All of the tires on the short list are priced close. It may come down to $$$$, delivery, availability. My desire with the next set is to save some wheel weight and loose some rolling resistance. Question is can I find reliable information on those topics. I'm pretty sure I will downsize the tire to 245/70R17. That's good for a few pounds per wheel regardless. I also have a longer term goal for engine rpm that I can't get on gear alone where a slightly shorter tire will be of aid. As you can see I'm in the 'think tank' mode.

Ah Eastern Wyoming! I have stories about that area of the world where the deer and the antelope play. I've ridden over an hour and never saw a single car. There's a place a guy can use all the light he can hang off her. Short list of tires. I'm having a hard time finding any fault with these Bridgestone. Even with as many miles as I have on them silent as the grave. Cabin readings are under 70 db. Work well in the rain and dry and I don't drive much in the winter so not a feature I care much about. Braking is great. That said there are a few I keep looking at in addition to these Bridgestone (in order): Pirelli Scorpion Verde All Season Plus Continental Cross Contact LX20 Yokohama Geolandar H/T GO56 Just started thinking about the inside so haven't done much looking yet. Just did the 50K service on my Lacrosse and the bill set me back enough to put this on the back burner for awhile. Property taxes and all are due. Here's one for the books while I'm on a roll. The air bag seat cushion passenger side.....is a....drum roll please.....$1,300 part!!!!! 2009 CXL. Extortion! If ever there was a case for courts there is one. These are variable voltage not resistance driven systems like most everyone else. There is no work around we have been able to find....yet. Greed stinks!

Summer numbers are in! 29.36 mpg for the summer. Up 7.2% over the summer of (2017: 27.24 mpg). 26.92 Life time average up from 2017's peak of 26.72 or 1%. 29.32 the month end 24 tank moving average which has been at or above 29.0 mpg since July 13, 2018.

Thanks Cadillac Luke! James this is the data you asked for some time ago. Luke tagged it with a like to point me to it. Cross post from July 16, 2018 Quantum Leaps thread. Before we had many warm days this year I did a service dump, filter and fill of the trans with Red Line D6. A 50/50 then of the factory fill Delco and Red Line. The next eleven tanks averaged 2 mpg over Peppers life time average with a lot less tank to tank variation. Some data noise suppression likely due to the level and less tank to tank variation. The increase...a seasonal change in average ambient temperatures in part and the higher lubricity and slightly lower viscosity of Red Line D6. The next five tanks would up the ante another mpg, 29.5 mpg as the trans stat was bypassed allowing not only more rapid heating due to a more advantageous temperature. The next change saw a switch from 5W20 to 0W20 and four tanks around 30.3 mpg...then...the thermostat failure crashed two tanks as I awaited parts for a new plan of attack. A slightly higher water temperature (10F) and a more stable and reliable thermostat. Running a bit faster and with the AC as peak summer temps arrive has Pepper at 29.94 mpg. The AFM is on most of the time and that was the plan to increase switched on time to the maximum via perfecting viscosity through a combination of heat management and viscosity choice. Mission accomplished. I will be at the mercy of the weather and my convictions from this point forward. I actually expect to backslide a few mpg as I start increasing speeds further and use of the air for the seasons remainder more often. While all the summer data is yet to be collected, August ends my summer frame, to date Pepper is 8.7% above 2017 summer months. 8.6% above the running averages initial values thus seeing a 16.2% increase in the 24 point moving average over last summer and a whooping 25.8% Increase in here best 6 point moving average. All this while increasing average road speed about 5 mph and prudent use of the AC unit. Most of these increases are the result of quicker heat ups to more stable running temperatures. Something I will continue to refine. Truth is, I've plucked most of the low hanging fruit. Odd side note. After a 400 mile trip today that resulted in 29.5 mpg, I was disappointed. Really disappointed in a tank under 30 mpg. I'm loosing it.

Hello Luke! Back from China I see... Silverstars and working nicely. Still on first set. I did have to aim them and I like them allot. I don't do much night driving in 'deer-land' so I expect they will last a bit longer than usual. A Walmart buy. Not disappointed. Did low beams only. Enough congestion around here to prevent much use of the high beams, which frankly aren't that bad IMHO. What's next??? Hum...………. What I would like and what I will get will depend a great deal on my skills as a negotiator. (wife). I have a short list of 'likes' and a short list of 'needs' coming up. You know me, I don't toss much away without wearing it out first then I try to replace it with something that earns it's keep. I guess tires are close to the 'needs' list top. A true-trac and a bit lower gear are on the wish list. I'd like to spruce up the interior a bit as I spend a good deal of time in the cab. Carpet maybe. Some sort of trim enhancement. I like wood grain. A few details to the tune I'd like to play with. Fans and such.

You don't really appreciate how big the cooling towers for a Nuclear plant are until you're parked the at the base of one. Byron Illinois was on the trip ticket.

James: Let's do the easy one first. The difference between 0W20 and 5W20. The 0W is less viscous when you start your truck in the morning but at running temperature they are the same. That's it. If your already running 5W20 you can't hurt anything switching. Unless your skimming your oil of the waters of the Gulf Coast!! Quality needs a word. Group III and lower oils need more viscosity suppression than Group IV and V oils. Part of the Grouping classification has to do with the base oils natural viscosity index. The lower the index the more viscosity changes with heat. The lower the Group the lower the natural viscosity index, the more junk is in the can. AMSOIL's Signature Series is a group IV PAO (Quoting Rick from a previous post to this thread). Red Line is a Group IV/V blend. These are the only two oils I am absolutely certain about. They would contain the least suppression polymers. In fact Red Line contains nearly none due to the esters. I fairly certain Quaker State Ultimate Durability is a full on Group III. They are all quality oils just different chemistries. Give this a thought. 5W30 is a 25 point spread. 0W20 only a 20 point. Which can has more suppression additive? Yep...5W30. Thermostat. How low can you go. I've run 160's years ago and always had trouble with foaming in the breathers in any application other than full on racing where I work it to death. Personally I don't like them for daily drivers. 170 kind of depends on how long you can keep the motor at heat per driving cycle. I did okay as I don't turn a key for under a hundred mile drive between stops. Iffy in winter and short hauling. 175 and up is good. 180 F was industry bread and butter for decades. It wasn't a choice for the Ecotec3 series motors thus the 'in hose' housing. Stant 46158 is a 187 F OEM for your motor. That isn't to hot actually. I mean 7 degrees wouldn't buy you much. (over a 180). Lingenfelter 174 F would be okay too, don't you think? Either is good. I wouldn't be afraid of the 174 in you area. The Gen IV Stat is a much MUCH better design than the thing they put in mine. Truth is, if your trip length is so short that it never gets to the trigger point it doesn't matter what stat is in it, right? Fan's. That is going to be situational. If you have enough reserve radiator capacity it didn't change a thing. My fans are set factory and never turn on but my motor never gets hotter than 192 F that I've ever seen or recorded. Even a 100F day idling for half an hour didn't drive it any higher. Trans made it to 192F. Say your fans are set to 200 F and you have a 174 F thermostat. If your fan turns on....well.....get your foot out of it. Kidding. You may need more radiator or more pump or more water to glycol and a 'wetter' but the thermostat is out of the equation at that point. Right? I used the colder thermostat as part of a symphony of changes to effect Peppers fuel program. It's hard to assign a percentage. My motor calls for 5W30. To run *W20 I needed to lower the temperature of the oil enough to bring the operation temperature viscosity up to or higher than the *W30. But it wasn't the only reason. The little motors oil cooler is in the hot side and thus the oil temperature (bulk) runs 20-40 F hotter than the water temperature. As the GM stat in this model is a 207 F that meant my daily oil temperatures were running 225-250 F! Not in my motor no matter how good anyone claims the oil to be. 210 F under load is hot enough and 195-205 F is sweet. Once I got the bulk temperatures down reliably I went for the lowest viscosity grade that I could get and keep the bulk oil viscosity at 8-10 cSt. 5W30 at 230 F is thinner than that. I'd use 0W16 if it were available from Red Line. Then I kicked the floor out switching from 5W20 to 0W20. Most of the fuel savings comes from that end of the can when your under power trip lengths between key cycles is under 100 miles. It only helps on longer trips. The last bits were the trans stat gutting and Group IV trans/diff fluids. More rapid heat up with a higher viscosity INDEX fluid. That too is situational. My trans cooler is single stage and in the cold tank. Copy the reasons and not the exact recipe. In my case lowering the coolant temperatures lowered the oil temperature as well as lowered the incipient knock threshold. My KR system runs in a lower state of retard that average and my fuel map is a hair richer. Your layout of coolers and thermostat/fan triggers may require a slightly different strategy but the goals are the same. SAFELY lower fluid temperatures and lower fluid viscosities. I don't want to see my motor oil ever over 212F EVER. 195 F on the trans is my hard limit. I can't tell you what will work exactly for yours James but I can point north.

Yea, one week to go for my summer numbers but.....27 mpg life time average is possible. Even eminent. The results of two years worth of data based implementation of cooling systems modifications and lubrication choices.

Explain something to me. If this years truck is 'light years' ahead of the K2 isn't that an admission the K2 was a known piece of junk? What is it that was improved that wasn't deficient in the K2**'s? I thought they were perfect according to the claims rejections for warranty work and denied customer complains. Oh....Shinny!! New!!!! Crows at sunrise that forgot what yesterday looked like. Get a grip. You cheated me before and what me to buy this years 'perfect'? Good luck with that. What's it going to be next product cycle? 32 speed triple turbo NPG 1 liter One ton's?

I wonder sometimes if these Bridgestone's will ever wear out or become to hard to be safe. Eventually I guess...right? Sneaking up on 75,000 miles and I'm asking myself what more I could possible ask from a truck street tire and I honestly don't know. It's hard to know for a certainty what a different tire will do with all the differing opinions. I don't play nice with opinion and yet hard data is hard to come by unless you generate it yourself. I'm playing with my gauge pack installed on my phone and finally figured out the sound meter. It was kind of a big deal given the wind turbine noise regulations we have around here that seemed...a bit left field? No matter actually it was just the pointed stick I needed to give the device a harder look. Put 2 and 2 together and???? Yea, cabin noise.... Part of cabin noise is tire noise. Part is wind noise. Part is mechanical noise and part of it is how well the cabin insulates you from those noises. I needed a baseline so....we drive 55 mph, windows up unbroken blacktop generated a sound level of 69 db. Impressive. 60 mph and as before 72 db. Rough concrete 75 and 80 db. respectfully. Windows down 80 - 87 depending on how far down. Getting a bit noisy. Okay windows back up and hammer time. Intake and exhaust noise at the top of several gears comes in around 85 db. Pretty quite truck. Oh yes I tried the wife's Terrain with the Michelin's and got about the same numbers. Not enough difference to call a difference really. Of course the cabin is different and the insulation I expect a bit different but they are both stock and both at about the same noise levels. Sounds like a company target number. If I ever get my Buick back I'll give that a go. My ears say it's quitter but my ears said my truck was quitter than the wife's SUV too and I was wrong. My ears ring like Ma Bell. Quite is important as the sound in my head is amplified by ambient noises. Sound like a project some of the Audio guys might weigh in on...eh? I am not a sound engineer. If I needed something quieter I smothered it.

I wanted to make sure of my facts before I weighed in so we went for a 150 mile jaunt. Not a particularly hot day, Mid 70's. Dead cold high idle pressure 28 psi on a scan gauge. Fully warmed up with oil temp over 205 F 24 psi =/- 2. Hot idle 560 rpm 20-22 psi. Hot higher speed (2000 rpm) 28 psi. Over 3,000 rpm variable from 30 to 52 nearly linear with rpm. Same numbers I have logged for 100 F days. On the dash gauge we get a different story. Cold idle 42, Hot down the road 38. Hot idle 32 and nailed to the wall 80+. Point is the dash gauge and actuals are not even close. The dash gauge is a 'feel good' idiot meter. Yes my motor is the 4.3 not the 6.2 BUT they share the same oil system strategy. The call out of this little motor is 5W30 and I run 0W20. I've tired 10W40 and it makes zero difference to the oil pressures when warmed up. A bit higher when cold. Because??? Unlike your grandfathers small block which dumped excess oil pressure to the pan after the pump but before the oil galley these critters dump the excess at the end of the circuit and use a variable displacement pump system. check and check. The numbers it should read with a Tech II or equivalent OBDII tool. Almost every one of these I've seen will hold the dash gauge roughly 40 psi in cruise and over 35 dash idle. You gauge would give me pause and it could be literally anything. Sending unit, Screen, Gauge and/or worse. Have it checked out before the warranty expires. Devils in the details. Have a nice day.

I believe we focus hard on what heat does to the fluid and miss what heat does to operation and component life. Things such as seal hardening which happens regardless of the fluid you use. Plate slip (glazing). Plates burning up as well as seals burning up. Varnish and carbonizing are fluid related. These others...the goose has been cooked and it doesn't matter what oil it was cooked in. Peanut oil anyone? Those are heat related materials failures. The thermostat GM devised for the 6L80E is a odd bird. It hasn't a minimum flow to the cooler system thus relies on working the fluid to bring the system to heat. 192F is the beginning of the opening but it is over 203F before it is fully open. (I checked). It is also highly restrictive so even fully open it limits flow to the cooling system. They are crowding the component failure points especially for valve body piston and servo seals, to run the fluid to as low a heat related viscosity as possible to enhance fuel efficiency. Playing with a two headed rattlesnake. I'm a fuel efficiency sort of guy but not at the expense of component life. AS delivered and as I've mention numerous times my fluid temperatures were 200/225 F on warm days running. They spike higher during the hot soak that comes after shut down. Did you guys notice the trigger points James provided that GM has coded to the TMC? 266 F for FIVE seconds for a warning. (look at the chart). 270 F for ONE minute for the alarm? That should give you an indication of how much higher GM believes these so called "Synthetic" Group III fluids have pushed the oxidation limits. Not far. Use of a PAO or an Ester/PAO blend is prudent especially if your going to rely on the factory thermostat and single imbedded radiator cooler arrangement. I'm a belt and suspenders sort of fellow. I do both. It will save the oil but not the seals. They are ringing the alarm after the school burns down. Thus the coolers and lower stat settings. Last consideration. This chart is 'bulk oil temperature" in the pan. Temperatures in running components such as gear teeth and converter vanes are quite a bit higher. Under heavy loading one can burn a fluid even when the bulk oil temperatures are low enough to be considered safe. Your not going to hurt that box by running it colder than 175F. It has full 'normal' function anytime over 100F. Not that I'm saying that is the target. Just saying I'm not concerned if it's below 160 F as mine is. I like cushion. Your results may vary!!! Yea, it's two am and I am doing the can't sleep ramble.

Here's some info James from Wikipedia: In the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, ATF contained whale oil as a friction modifier. But since whale oil would break down at higher temperatures, cars produced in the 1970s and later would not be able to use whale oil because of the higher engine coolant temperatures employed to reduce emissions and save fuel. A moratorium on whale oil at that time prevented the continued production of older ATF such as the original DEXRON formulation (Type B), and the Type A which preceded it. And at this point I need to make a clarification. I said: "The very term synthetic has been dumbed down so hard it hardly means anything today. It use to mean any lubricant not derived from mineral oil". That should read: It use to mean any lubricant not derived from a naturally occurring substance. PAO's are indeed a synthetic produced from Olefins which are manufactured from mineral oil but not naturally occurring thus....synthesized. It's kind of what the word means. When a Group III is hydrotreated the carbon bonds are fully filled. The new molecules however are also naturally occurring. I don't consider them a synthetic. Nothing has been synthesized. The deck was just shuffled after adding more aces and removing the duces. The Government disagrees and sides with the Oil Lobby. This muddies the water to the point you haven't a clue what's what unless the manufacture is forthcoming. I.E. Amsoil and Red Line don't mind telling you what the base stocks are thus...I use them. Mobil lied by omission thus I kick them to the curb. Anyway back to you James. Thank you for the specifics of your system. I figured you had to have at least one additional cooler. This gives me a tangible value for future work on this system. That is very helpful. Nick thanks for the breakdown. You've been very helpful.

James, interesting that your temperatures are all below my old thermostat trigger point of 192F which makes me wonder if your pre K2XX even has a thermostat. My box after gutting the thermostat housing is running almost identical to yours. What engine coolant thermostat does yours have and does yours have more fluid cooler than the internal tank exchanger? That is, a secondary air/fluid exchanger factory or otherwise. As far at the chart predating synthetics. Well...synthetics have been around a long time now. Amsoil has been into synthetic products since 1972, right Nick? In the 70's manufactures discontinued using whale oils as friction modifiers in ATF. Those burn very quickly. 1972 is about the year they started upping the coolant temperatures for emissions which killed the whale oils quickly. I can't be dogmatic about it but I would have to say this chart is post the whale oil era. We were still using it at Chevron in the 80's. There is also this. The very term synthetic has been dumbed down so hard it hardly means anything today. It use to mean any lubricant not derived from mineral oil. Now you can hydro-finish a group 2 stock and call it a synthetic. You can put a truck load of Group I, if it is the carrier oil for the add pack, into an POA and still call it a synthetic even if the add pack is 30% of the can. Saturating the carbon bonds certainly helps delay oxidation but it does not prevent it. This game they play with the word synthetic is the very reason I use Group IV/V fluids. Delco is a group III syn. I have no idea what Amsoil is. Redline I know and have been using their products for about 25 years. I would expect Delco syn is covered by this chart. GM's thermostat choices and change intervals are dead in line with this chart and a group III syn.

http://transmissionrepairguy.com/transmission-temperature-gauge/ Spurshot posted this link in another thread. This is a great resource I wanted to preserve for quick reference. This isn't transmission life. It's transmission fluid life and fluid is the life of the transmission. When the boys did the pan install they let Pepper idle for a half hour. The time it took to peak the transmission temperature with the 180 F coolant thermostat and gutted trans stat. That temperature was 192 F. It use to peak on a hot day over 225 F unloaded Interstate speed temperatures. Worse on State roads on long steep grades. First change came at 50K and it was mildly discolored but odor free. Now I know why the book says 45K. Oh am I ever glad that I drive the way I did for those first 50,000 miles. To me that says GM knows the even with their Group III Dexron 6 synthetic fluid they recognize there is a limit to mineral oil...even good ones. An admission by procedure. It's why in addition to coolers and lower thermostats I use Ester/POA blended fluids. Highest I've seen 'in service' has been in town after a few hours on the Interstate. I leave the big road between 150 and 156 F but a few minutes of reduced pump rate through the exchanger elevates it to about 175 F. Perfect!!

Really? Do they both got from point A to point B? The extra 40K is for what? No really. For what? So you can get noticed by every other truck that looks just like yours? 30K or 70K you get the same 2 mill crap paint. The same frame and coachwork. Is a fancy computer, stereo and leather worth 40K? Ego is what your spending that cash on. Has nothing to do with transportation.

That's a nice project you have there.

Told the wife some years ago after the bailouts; "When they can no longer find ways to earn my money they will devise ways to STEAL it legally". She thought me a nut then...not so much now. They however I meant in a much larger context but this is a good example. Extortion it is then. These prices are twice what I paid for my 2015!!! No sir, they are NOT twice the truck. This isn't the first time this has been tried. Remember the early 70's? Locked us out of your cars....for a while.....better computer tech now. Maybe it will stick.

1955 Task Force is introduced with the all new 265 V8. The write up that year sounds allot like this one. Shinny!!!! New!!!!! Improved!!! Some old, same old decade after decade. See what you young ones have to look forward too.

Here ya go per your request. RCSB on stock rims and tires. 2" King coil over level with 600# springs on a Bell 2" knuckle drop and out back a set of 15% softer 2" drop Deaver multi-leaf leaves in Sulastic hangers plus the 1.26" block is removed and King OEM shocks. 1/2" total up front and 3.5" out back. 1" rake. Rear tubs are Line-X finished to kill visual space and corrosion protection.

Everything new is the next best thing since sliced bread....until it isn't. How long does that take? Yea...like minutes.

Your welcome for nothing. I think..... Not looking for a fight Mook, looking for accurate information to flow in BOTH directions. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have enough time or money left to waste either. It didn't hit me when you first posted how odd the claim was based solely on the thermostat settings. I reacted to the delivery and not the information. My bad and I apologize. I commend you for manning up and sharing there may be an input issue. Oddly, the exchange seems to be for 'something' then, eh? Something else had to be amiss. Looks like there are several issues. Yes the sensor; but also an understanding of the differing truck systems and TIME. You can slap a hot iron and not burn your fingers but you can't hold them their for long. 45 minutes isn't long enough I would expect. It wasn't for mine. Use to take about 90 minutes on a hot day and over two hours in mid winter. Since the Thermostat was modified it takes about 20 miles on a warm day. We well see about winter but I expect it to take much less time as the cooler is a heater until the fluid reaches water temperature. The biggest reason I did it. Rapid warm ups. Get those fluids to operating temperature and lessen the viscous drag. Yes we get 100+ days here. Just not as many of them thankfully. 85 F seems about normal here. John A (a member here) was very helpful and squared me up on the differences between the V6 and V8 systems and they vary some by year in the K2 line. I believe he mentioned that the trans stat in the V8 is about 10 F colder than the 192 F in the V6 models as well? You could PM him and check that if your interested. His knowledge is greater than mine on these system. I know Pepper very well but he knows the entire lineup.

8/8/2018 trip. 365 miles / 12.104 gallons = 30.2 mpg at 62 mph (100 kph) . Measured and metered. Day 84 F. 86 F AIT, Trans 150-154 F, ECT 182-184 F, Oil 206-208 F. It will hold these number on even a 100 F day. Factory water thermostat is 207F. Unless it's stuck open coolant temperature can not be lower than that. Sure you want to claim it only 10 degree warmer? Your at 192 F? Really? Closer to 210-212 F, 25+ degrees higher is more like it. I'll need an explanation of how your transmission holds low to mid 160's (10 over mine) on a hundred degree day for 500 miles with the factory trans cooler in the hot tank and the factory thermostat. The factory set up will run near 200 F in the winter at 0 F in about 100 miles. Your not on the cooler until the thermostat opens. Something well north of 165 F. 20-30 F more. Something is amiss...... Like the idea that saying a thing so makes it so perhaps.