Grumpy Bear

I'm trying to think of an example where that might be true and am coming up empty. The squeeze on the families buying power is just as prevalent in non manufactured goods and services. It doesn't cost one red cent more to design a thing right as it does wrong. The cost of heat treat is the same for 62 RC and it is for 55 RC. The cost of steels and alloys properly selected are a wash. Fit and finish is head a shoulders above 1950 levels as is motor life spans. However the 4-5-6 clutch packs in the 6L80E is a great example of stupid is as stupid does. The design is flawed. The apply piston fails to support the clutch discs fully. The cost of the properly designed parts from the aftermarket are cheaper retail than the flawed design factory original replacements. Cost to the consumer is not the issue. Greed is the issue. US buying power is down 40% since 1960. Inflation has out stripped earnings as steady and as slowly as a Boa eating a rat for five decades plus. that is not the result of anyone's necessity. Just plain old greed. Frogs boiled slowly don't notice their dying but can be convinced their not in danger by their own gullible senses.

Fram commercials. Yea, I remember those. That was awhile ago. ( a rant) This emissions and mileage thing has been a frog jumping half way to the wall of dependability/reliability for quite some time. Metallurgic technology advances haven't moved as rapidly as the destructive forces of heat and heat seems to be Detroit's favorite tool and with sound scientific cause. It lowers Nox and viscosity. Keeping the current technology alive and well is a combination, as you've learned, of controlling the quality of the fluids used to cool and lubricate. How long they are pressed for service, how clean they are kept and most importantly the temperatures they are allowed to suffer. That last ones primary lever is load. If you need to load it more than heat says prudent then add a cooler or two. Lower a thermostat setting. Add a fan. (rant done) True story. I run a 2005 HD Electra on 40W. I also added twin coolers that hold oil temperatures to 90F plus ambient. The cam chain tension assembly in these has a know planned failure of 35,000 miles. The factory recommends 50W and preplacement of tensioners and chains every 30K. Cost about one grand. This is an example of a planned failure for profits sake. If you ignore this he chain fouls the backing plate pulling debris into the off drive main bearing and BOOM!!. I ran mine 45K and when pulled down for inspection the tensioners still had 95% + of their original thickness left. In fact I gave permission to replace any other parts not found to be inside new manufacturing tolerance. (this is a top end tear down if you don't allow pushrod cutting and I didn't) Yep a blank check to a dealership. Not a singe part was replaced other than gaskets and tension assembly. A factory HD TC88 will run between 240 and 310F bulk oil temperature on a 90 F day depending on how hard your hammering it. I run 190 F on that same day no matter what. I did the Dragon on a 95F day in third gear never exceeding 40 mph under as much throttle as grip would allow and never broke 200F. The two other bikes with me were both over 300F. Deals Gap 318 curves in 11 miles. Heat is a killer even with great oil.

Wait a minute. You bought one that you had some undisclosed issue with you don't feel is relevant to share...and then went out and bough a second one just like it? Reeeeeaaaaally? You hated it so much and it was such a big problem that you bought a second one? What the.....!! And wrap that all up under the heading of science? Smells of stockyard on a hot day in Oklahoma. Or just irrational. I don't do irrational 'me too' babble.

Thank you Mookdoc6!! So it was an issue for a short period of time over some 'sourced parts' and GM has the records to identify a few week span. More importantly, they took care of it as Jsdirts experience, "once fixed it's fixed" seems to uphold. Told ya Jsdirt I wasn't looking for your head. C'mon man...smile... That isn't a 'sky is falling" situation. Doesn't rise to the level of a conspiracy. But a great example of how a situation gets 'blown out of proportion' with some cyber help and how that lingers on ones reputation. Don't you just love the internet? Ecotec3 sounds like it's going to do just fine.

Jsdirt: Take a breath brother. I called no one a liar nor even implied it. In fact I recall stating I valued both your tech and you writing. I also said, failures without a reference point are not proof that determines prevalence. I don't care how many there are. There can be thousands of post. There are millions of AFM units in service. Until those two are correlated it means zip. I'm not looking for your head. I'm looking for the truth. It's okay if you don't know. In fact I'm being more that fair. Ever hear, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Just because you don't have the information doesn't mean the problem isn't there. I never denied it was a problem. It means we don't have a feel for it's prevalence and until we do it is ill advised to start yelling "FIRE" in a theater. It's kind of what your doing when you make a claim you can't support with rational statistical proofs. If the truth is 1 in a 1,000, I'm not concerned. If it's even 250 per 1,000 I'm not just concerned, I'm mad. How many ways can I say that? I'm not sticking up for GM. I'm sticking up for scientific method and rational conclusions from data. I don't hang people because I think their guilty. Yes that gets me taken advantage of and no I'm not good with that. But my reputation is more important to me than bloodletting. Now exhale. Diyer2: Sounds like a solid program. My father is your carbon copy in this regard and it serves him well. He has more 400,000+ motors than anyone I personally know. Keep it up!! I follow his model when I toss Red Line Oil at 5K and for the same reasons you do. It just works and cheaper than a new motor or even a truck.

I've asked for facts. You say you can't supply facts and yet you insist you have insight into the commonality of the problem. Then state that I can read the "post" as my assurance. These "post" are also without reference to volume and support nothing of the sort. Not sure it is I who is making assumptions? You're actually defining what it means to make an assumption. Stating the gravity of a problem without any knowledge of reference. Hi Diyer!! How's the snow load today? "Take the heat". Some can, I agree. Now...what do you think that means? If you think that there are oils today that are formulated to resist thermal oxidation better than the conventional 'dino' standard. I also agree. However if you believe that this means the laws that rule viscosity change with temperature are null and void because of that. We disagree. Oh they can slow an oil today from rapid thermal fracture that leads to viscosity loss or thickening and high temperature deposit formation. But that 20W at 300 F is about 2-3 cSt. About as light as room temperature WD-40. It isn't much heavier at 250 F. The viscosity relationship is only linier between 40 and 100 C. http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/sae-viscosity-grades/ We use to have 192 F thermostats (or lower) and a lot less motor load in terms of demand power density. A daily driver hadn't much of an issue holding the bulk oil temperatures down under 212 F. Today normal operating temperature is 20 to 40 F over the water temperature and the water temperatures are 210 F in light load and 240 F + pulling a load. Viscosities for that same loads are now 1/3 of what they were for our beloved iron 350's. Now ask yourself. How would you feel about pulling your 9,000 lb. travel trailer over Wolf Creek Pass with a 1968 C-10 powered by an iron 350 with a crankcase full of 0-W ? Because that's about what they are asking the new motors to do. It's actually lighter than 0W at load pulling operating temperatures. They thing missed often is that the motor doesn't care what the viscosity is on the label of the bottle or in a test rig in the lab. It responds to the actual temperature at the interface. These are my reasons for installing a 170 F thermostat, using Group V oils, changing every 5K and driving like Mr. Magoo. I run 5W20 in a 4.3 that has a call out for a 5W30 and my oils viscosity at the 180-190 F measured temperature it runs at is more viscous than 5W30 at the 245 F measured temperatures it use to run at on a warm day unloaded. They hydraulic viscosity needs are fulfilled, the AFM happy and the motor a good deal more protected. It ain't my first rodeo. This is a plain case of an unrelated truth seemingly supporting a well told lie. It's is, in fact, more thermally stable and it doesn't matter one iota because thermal stability hasn't a damn thing to do with heat related viscosity reduction until after the fact. It just sounds like it does and that is the effectiveness of this lie. Oh sir, and it is told boldly and defended with vigor. It's also crap. Lastly there is the issue of defining synthetic. Until the majority are telling the truth the fact remains the by law 'Blend' means as little as 5% and 'Full' can mean Group III. Only a handful of companies are willing to state content. More lies based on half truths. Understand. But that wasn't the point I was making with that reply. If your going to state a thing as a fact it better have more support than a 'I believe it so'. Points of reference are demanded by both logic and sound scientific method.

Then I gather from the composite of all your post that we are dealing with a fairly low occurrence situation. 'I'm in Ford country' and 'mine (2007 ?) failed' indicate you've repaired two (?) or few (?) Given the unit sales over the LS/Ecotec3 run in your area alone that isn't allot is it? You state in another post that after a fix it stays fixed and assign it to poor assembly practice. Thus repair parts are obviously improved in any number of ways which indicates this is not in fact a design issue but a QC issue. Man is incapable of making anything with zero defects. Even NASA blows up a crew now and again. Perfection is God's territory. "Lifter failure" doesn't say much. We never learn if this is an excessive leakage (plunger) issue. A plunger sticking issue. A roller or roller bearing/pin failure. A locator failure. Each has it's own root cause. QC failed to control clearances. QC failed to catch heat treat issues. Design failed to engineer effectively although it seems ruled out in the 'stays fixed' statement if there is no visible difference. At this point I'm going to toss two cents on the table in question form and refrain from making a conclusion. When did GM routinely start using 207 F thermostats with a +/- of 3 F as standard issue? What happens to oil temperature when water temperatures are that hot? What happens to a liquids viscosity when heated? What is the upper temperature spec for SAE viscosity testing? Does the oil temperature exceed the SAE upper limit? If so by what degree? What is the viscosity at that temperature? What happens to boundary layer lubrication at excessive temperatures? What lubrication mode is in play in a plunger lifter? What happens to film strength at elevated temperatures? What prevents even hardened materials from failing in close contact at extreme pressures and loads? What happens to even good oils at elevated temperatures? Does it leave a residue? Will it affect a clearance? Does it matter if it is stuck collapsed or bleeds collapsed? Why isn't common sense common? Did I hint at multiple failure modes? Is there anything an owner can do about any of this?

No worries. I don't carry grudges. They are to heavy. I understand. As cheaply as I bought mine it still cost multiples of what my fathers home cost him and still a good portion of what mine cost me. Over the last forty years, by my research, our buying power has shrunk about 40%. Tis the reason both mates in the home work now when one would could manage in my early life. My grandmothers furniture was her mothers and lasted over one hundred years and don't kid yourself; on the day she died it looked new. My kids went through about five bedroom sets a piece. I'm sure they were no rougher on it than my father was on grandma's stuff. Homes, furniture, cars, trucks....all falling to greed, corruption and apathy. Nobody starved because someone built quality. No business failed for this reason either. In my grandfathers day if there were two harness masters in town they fella who built the longest lasting put the other out of business. Now they collaborate. Ford and GM and the ten speed for example. Point is, it's changed and if your going to drive you're going to buy someone's crap because it's all crap and more often than not today, made in the same village by the same village idiots. For us in the trenches it's about managing this sorry but simple fact. It isn't...what is it. It's what to do about it. And what to do about it is educate yourself, mange your expectations and find a course of action you can live with. That is until God fixes it once and for all. If you don't, all you have left is complaining and failed expectations, and while you can find people that will listen...for awhile...it changes nothing but the nature of your relationships. So let's start with something you do know. When a Pre-Ecotech3 motor comes into your shop for an AFM related failure is it: 1.) Pre or Post the GM fixes of baffling, venting and oil rerouting? 2.) Is it a failure of wear or a failure of tear (as my father would ask of the hole in the knee of my Jeans). 3.) Is it measurement related? 4.) Metallurgy related? 5.) Lubrication related? 6.) User related? 7.) Something else? If at all how has this changed with the advent of the Ecotec3 motor platforms? What can we hang our hats on that we do know.

I am not ignorant of your plight nor of the commercial systems sins, which are many. I suppose this felt like a personal attack and for that I am truly sorry. It was not meant to be. What is was meant to be was a push toward scientific inquiry and in the end, relief. I believe in stats. I believe in science. I believe in God. In rational application of all the for-stated. Past that I have grave doubts. I rarely trust even my own motives and even less in my own knowledge. As the professionals you and I are I do understand your frustration. Those with a heartfelt love for this work and the auto in general are sensitive to this REAL commercial villainy and yes we feel a need to vent on that a bit now and again. I get that. I really do. But I also understand that in a forum setting it is the evil and not the good that sings the loudest. Thus the need for a statistical point of reference to prevent distortion and, silly as this may sound, attempt to do what a forum was meant to do. Help people. No one is denying that there is or was or even may continue to be an issue. The evidence is clear enough. It is no longer a question. What we don't know is how often. The gravity of the situation is relevant, is it not? 1 in a 1,000 is certainly not the same issue, or crap shoot, as say 700 per 1,000. You can see this, I know you can. Did the GM fixes work? If not each has it's own solution. That later demands I look for a different brand of truck. The former asks questions such as those I asked earlier. Is it a lubrication issue. A metallurgy issue? A design issue? The result of some habit of ones own making. Some things I can do myself, some need a fix perhaps I can also do myself. But we need information to do this and guys like you are our best source of that information. Even if you can't get your hands on that data what does an honest appraisal of your experience tell you? When you do a repair what does your postmortem revel? Give us a clue brother and hammer out a solution if one is to be found! Whose parts are viable replacements? Should I use using Crane Lifters if the GM replacements are no better? Has someone outside GM addressed this with success? Have any tips and tricks? You've already shown yourself a talented writer and an able tech. Now share it. Please...use your skills as a guide not a siren. There is enough unfruitful negative pilling on problems already.

So we haven't any valid point of reference for the Ecotech3 motors nor, an more importantly, do we have a valid reference for the LS series. That would have been the failures per hundred units sold. This leaves "they will fail' on some pretty shaky ground. Can't even say 'likely to fail'. What can be said is "some failed". Some light bulbs fail. Maybe we should go back to kerosene lamps. What has this to do with AFM failures? Nothing. Nice deflection however. Actually it weaken the lifter arguments believability. A second unrelated issue does not add credit to the first. And there we have it. So...it isn't a design issue? It isn't even and oil related issue? It's an assembly issue? Yea, I don't believe in elfin magic. This paragraph gives the credit to the repairman. Said more believable would have been; the replacement parts were made of a better material, to a tighter measurement spec or to a higher degree of accuracy in heat treating OR some batches of OEM factory installed parts fell threw the cracks. If that would have been the case then there wouldn't have been a redesign of the system which brings it full circle. It was, in fact, a design issue and it was addressed. Rocker covers, breathers and a redirect of the bleed oil system. All in all, about what I figured.

If I may impose on your experience. Compare the failure rate between the LS platform AFM (above) to that of the 2014 and later Ecotec3 AFM platform with point of reference. Example: X in a hundred motors sold experiences an AFM failure pre 2014 vs X units per hundred sold post 2014. If you feel so inclined it would be useful to compare as well failures pre and post the AFM 'fix' era as well. Thank you in advance for any information presented.

Seems the 6T45 transmission does have a filter. Just not one that can be replaced without removal and full teardown of the gearbox. Looks like GM thinks the best time to replace a filter meant to help prevent disaster is best replaced after the fact. GM is starting to wear a bit thin with me. Just don't know which is of the lesser evils is actually less evil. They all seem to be drinking from the same cup.

So what do ya think is worse? Saying it's so. Believing it's so or repeating it?

50,000 mile service. Mobil 1 WIX filter oil change. Valvoline Synthetic service drain and fill on the transmission. Fluid was a bit dark. Make note to change on shorter intervals. Brake system power bleed. Balance and rotate tires. Still looking good. Top to bottom inspection. No issues found. Will do diff's on next service. Just ran out of time today. Two other notes. Was looking to do Mobil 1 Trans as well but unable to find a local source. Check into trans filter service. Books showed no filter number so pan was not dropped. Weird.

I was hoping you would get some feed back to your question nowicks. Try PM'ing him? Every ounce of data I have supports that cold fluids hinder fuel efficient operation. Not exactly a state secret. Neither is the fact that warm motors produce lower emissions levels. Add to this that no manufacture outside GM has this 0 degree F block heater restriction and it becomes pretty easy to call BS on 'it's and EPA" thing. It's a GM engineering thing. Complaining about it isn't going to get it fixed and fixed it must get. What it needs is a work around. It's been hovering the zero mark here for over a week and everything on the property is cranking slow. I'm digging in to it but bottom line is, the best work around might be a different manufacture. I've used one sensor to 'fake' out another to get a desired result before, but then I had access to the full mapping and line logic of the ECM. Read this HD Race Tuner. Just a look see at the mapping mind you. I didn't buy one. I was allowed access from a dealer I befriended. In the end the solution to a five percent richer mixture was to lower the oil temperature 40 F via duel coolers to lower the cylinder head temp below the trigger point of full run lean. I got the effect of a free Stage 1 kit for the price of a cooler I also needed. Bet something like that is possible here too.

I hand fabricated my other ride.

Photo please.

Reviewing GM"s load and tire pressure information and came to this conclusion. Values are based on the maximum load that CAN be carried. That is interesting when I review the inflation tables of 110 load rated P metric tires. I ran my finger down the table and find that even at 30 PSIG I'm well within any load I will ever carry by nearly double on the spur of the moment without a compressor and tire gauge. Still north of 2200 psig per tire. So....30 it is. That's minus 5 psig. Long term evaluation on things like tire wear and fuel efficiency will take a while to quantify but short term I can comment on a few things that would be evident on the spot. Road holding is uncompromised at the speeds I drive on the roads I run. Does the Five Points double Esses at ten over the markers without a whisper from the tires. Not a hint of wallow. Feels firmly planted and mountain goat sure. Ride is remarkably compliant. Still firm but less so, controlled and very comfortable even over the rough stuff.

Been 40's and partly sunny for a week here. We had one snow that stuck hard enough to get the county to salt. Then it rained. Then it dried up again. Fickle this year.

Winter is taking a fuel toll 13% off the summer peak 5,000 mile averages. 28.5 summer 25.3 winter. No sir, I do not idle Pepper to warm her up. But it takes awhile to warm her up.

Local Marathon station has a recreational fuel pump. Only means a supply of 90 octane with no alcohol; the later pretty rare in Illinois. Good opportunity me thinks to check the alky content percent meter in my Flex Fuel capable system. ($3.66 a gallon). Second time I’d run the tank near zero in preparation of fixing this pesky spring squeak and that thwarted again and near empty with the meter showing 9%, I add 6 gallons of alky free. Within a few miles I watch the meter decline to 1%. Cool, it works! I also notice that the knock sensed retard is not showing any reduction at all from my normal 87 octane fills that I can perceive. ($2.39 a gallon) Odd. So I run that six gallons off over a few days and try again with 93 octane E-10. ($2.99 a gallon) Alky meter climbs to 7% and we head for some hilly terrain. Not once over the two hours did I see one event of knock triggered spark retard. What I did notice was the AFM was on more which may or may not indicate an increase in fuel efficiency. I also noted that torque management induced spark retard can actually go negative by a good amount. I saw registry of -14 degrees on decal once with -7 more common over the crest of a hill. Weird. No need to get excited at the price spread between 87 and 93 which is 20%. I’m sure relieving knock retard will not add 5 MPG to the equation even with a tail wind falling down Mt. Evans. The amount required for a break even in cost per mile justification. I also did not by the seat of the pants ‘sense’ any difference in drivability, throttle response or note a reduction in acne, low back pain, hemorrhoids or anything else I hear claims for from running higher octane fuels. I make three conclusions from this. The trucks base low alcohol tune is for something in the area of 91/92 octane. The ECM is working like a charm. What many describe as feeling the AFM cycle is actually the converter clutch lock up cycling. They feel identical. This needed a bit of investigation anyway as I plan on a gear change in the spring. What I needed to know was how much tuner would I require? Seems less than I thought.

The purpose of the shutters is to bring the motor to temperature more rapidly. They still have a thermostat. Thermostat housings have a small bypass which use to be part of the thermostat proper. A small bleed to prevent air entrapment and keep a safe minimum flow on the pump. Deadheading a pump is never a good idea. Trucks, meant to carry loads, have generous cooling systems and at times even the small bleed of water will retard engine heating and if cold enough and load low enough even prevent full warm up. A radiator is a basic fin fan exchanger. Limit it air, limit it's capacity. This is a good thing. Warm engines are more fuel efficient and emit lower emissions. Be happy. As for the temp cycling. Until there is enough load on the motor to keep the thermostat open and throttling there will be some normal vacillation as it cycles open and closed. This will change in amplitude and frequency with the changes in weather. More in cooler weather and less in warm. Don't worry that you wont have enough cooling capacity when fully loaded. That thermostat will open and the shutters will too.

Thank you Stan. Truly. My father use to tell me that true talent is the ability to recognize an others talent so you give me quite a compliment with such a thought. It deserved more than a like. I really do enjoy the feel of a thing personally perfected an take joy in the process of exacting it. More in sharing it with those that appreciate it as well. Again, thank you.

I imagine to many the modifications I do to this truck don’t seem all that exciting but I’m tickled pink. Tonight I spent some time aiming the headlamps. Before the level I had been looking at perhaps some lighting upgrades say from Halogen to HID projectors. I was not impressed with the factory light output, light color nor the punch out although the ditch spread was actually adequate. The dealership aimed them at the delivery by the machine method that attaches to the lens. I had a squirrel hunter after the level even after the shop aimed them by the wall method. Got flashed regularly by oncomers. Read up a bit and took it for a drive after a rough set of down 1-1/2 turns both sides. Out to dinner actually. Huge improvement in every aspect but now a hair low and a bit uneven. Up with the hood and up a quarter click driver’s side and up an eight passenger side. Bingo!! Punch out is as good as it gets down the road near a thousand feet. Low enough to stay below the package shelf of the average car when behind them far enough to see their rear contact patch. Color looks whiter when it’s not buried in the pavement. Good contrast. No one is flashing me and the ditch light…well…I can see a deer coming quite far off. Pattern is very even with no patching. If I have a wish left it would be for a bit whiter light still but it’s darn good. As good as my dad’s 67 Galaxy sealed beam system which I’ve not see bettered by anything short of aircraft landing lamps. Pretty surprised I hit the perfect alignment that quick but I confess I had a bit of help from this site reading about headlight aim after levels. I found a single post that noted 1-1/2 turns down put his on the money. I had three shots at wheel alignment to get the lowest rolling resistance and most even tread wear and now four hits to get the lights perfected. It’s this sort of fine tuning that I believe separates pretty good trucks from ones you will remember fondly for life. Hey and I saved a ton of money tweaking to the same results as hammer blow buy and try the most popular modifications going. Well, and personal satisfaction of a job done right.

Your welcome. I think you see it for what it is. Eyes wide open then. Have fun and check in and let us know how it goes.