todd308

Yep that's really the issue, guys that already have a 2" spacer lift that come on the TB/AT4's are putting another 2" on it, basically spacer lifting the truck 4" without adjusting drivetrain angles and things break. If you want to level a TB/AT4 the correct way is to put a real 2.5" lift on it that has a diff drop. That or remove the 2" spacer out of the back. You can do a 1.75-2" level, and replace the upper control arms, but all you really do is move buy some time because the failure point will be the CV joints. Blame GM for taking the cheapest possible route to lift the truck 2"

Agreed, I don't see the AT4-x being $10k more truck than the ZR2, $5k sure. If I was going to spend AT4-x $, it would be a raptor or TRX, both are going to be so much truck for not that much more $. In realty $66k isn't horrible, again a 21' AT4 can easily reach $66k, and this has everything that does plus lockers and better suspension. The wild card now is rebates and supplier pricing, they don't exist for the Raptor/TRX, so if GM keeps playing the rebate game when covid settles down it will knock those MSRP's way down, lowering effective prices and increasing the gap to the Raptor/TRX. Consumers are making their own pain here, no doubt companies have seen consumers willing to pay over MSRP for used vehicles of the last year, so they'd be crazy not to jack prices up. If no one paid the inflated "market adjustment" BS we wouldn't see these prices now.

Very nice, I really wish someone would find a way to maintain the rearview camera though. I'd have bought one for my AT4 a while ago if someone had cracked this.

In some good news I did finally just go to the dealer today, spoke to a new parts person, who then spoke to a manager, and about 30 minutes later it sounds like they are going to ship a replacement set of tow hooks. They didn't seem to happy about it, and I'm sure it's probably not their fault at all, seems like they are just an unfortunate middle man. That said I'm sure I spent about 5x the cost of the parts in my time and annoyance but if nothing else it provided some interesting information on how the system works. Of course I'll probably never have another issue so it won't' matter

Agreed, but sadly there's not much I can do if they keep refusing. Since I used points there's only a shipping charge to do a chargeback on. I can keep bugging people but to be honest I'm already well past the point where I've spent way more of my time running this down between the dealer, GMC, Fedex etc. than a $55 part is worth and as long as GMC keeps saying it's a Fedex issue I need to pursue with them, and Fedex keeps say they never received the package, there's no recourse for me. I was able to get ahold of the dealers parts department a couple times, the scenario is the same. They take my name, put me on hold about 10 minutes, come back saying they looked up my order, they can see my order but can't see the details. Take my name/# and say they will call me back when they find out more info. No one calls back GMC has been adamant both on social media and phone/chat that I either need to deal with Fedex or the listed dealer. Again not blaming the dealer parts guy, I'm sure it's not his fault, but it's a pretty impressive complete and total lack of help on an issue that should be very cut and dry. Tracking clearly shows I never received the parts, replacements should be sent, or my points/$ should be refunded. To see so many aspects of GM all pulling the same BS trying to avoid responsibility is impressive.

Order was just the Recovery tow hooks in black PN: 84195907 I've tried contacting the listed dealer a few times, never been able to make any progress getting calls/emails returned. I haven't tried showing up there as it's quite a drive to them, but that might be the next step. Emails/contact form never get any response. Calls always end up in having to leave a message or that someone will get back to me on the status, and of course no one does. At the end of the day they probably don't care, there's no way for me to do a chargeback since I used points so if the dealer/GMC doesn't want to do anything, there's no cost to them. Actually I think I did have to pay for shipping, maybe I'll do a chargeback for that just to share the headache with them. I got the feeling when I talked to GM Accessories by chat they were calling the dealer and talking to them about the order. They were adamant that the part was not backordered, and it was marked shipped in their system and not their problem, and that I needed to deal with Fedex. Not sure if the dealers get receipts for packages Fedex picks up, but it seems like between GMC and the dealer no one is interested in doing much about it on their end. My guess is the only way Fedex will do anything is if the dealer can show they tendered the package to Fedex for shipment because in Fedex's system it was never delivered to them for shipping, just a label created.

Yeah I tried the social media thing and basically got "Sorry we can't help you, you should contact the dealer that the GMC Accessories order was through" The order wasn't through a dealer so that wasn't very helpful.

Exactly, if according to Fedex it hasn't been delivered to them for shipping, just that the shipper created a label, and GM has no receipt/proof of handing the package to Fedex, the liability lies with GM. The downside is I really have no other recourse on my end aside to bug GM, since I used points for the order there's no card charge I could dispute etc. At the end of the day I'm not out anything but points, but it's bad business practice. Funny thing is I went back and forth if I should just remove them and coat them black, or order black ones, figured why not order a set and use points since they have nothing else I want. Clearly I should have just coated them

Beware, if you order something from GM Accessories and it never shows up, GM will do nothing for you. Also if you try to make an online claim with Fedex, they won't let you because the "Shipper has a claim account setup". About a month ago I used some of my points for a set of black recovery tow hooks and some leather cleaner. Leather cleaner showed up (they were shipped separate) tow hooks never did. I did get a shipment email from them for the tow hooks but Fedex's tracking system only shows a label was created, but the shipment was never received by them. This morning I contacted GMC Accessories by chat and their answer was that their system shows it was shipped a month ago and the tracking number (that shows a label was created but package was never received by Fedex) is all the documentation they have (they have nothing that documents Fedex ever received it for shipment) and that they have no responsibility because they are sure they "shipped" it. As the shipper with a claims account they need to make a claim with Fedex unless the tracking info shows it was delivered. They apologized and said there was nothing they could do and I'd need to contact Fedex myself because they are sure they "shipped it". It's not that I don't feel Fedex could be to blame, but Fedex isn't going to do anything if all the tracking # shows is a label was created but the package was not delivered to them for shipment unless the shipper can show proof of it being received by fedex. GM is clearly unwilling to do this, or provide a replacement.

Another funny aside, I was watching one of the preview videos and it looks like even on these $75k+ trucks GM is still using incandescent license plate lights. Moves like this really make you wonder how many other cost cutting stuff they are doing where you can't see. Like those lifters

I don't mind the interior, I really like the new instrument cluster, there's so much redundant/wasted info in the 21' with not only the analog speedo/rpm, but also just in the screens. There's speed on the HUD, speed on the analog speedo, and then speed on the instrument digital display. Give me more ability to see actually unique information not the same info in 3 places at once. The HUD is huge, so much possibility that GM didn't deliver with the HUD info. Show me rpm (buick does this), show me blind spot indicators, show me the parking sensors, high beams, fuel range. All kinds of info that's on the instrument cluster could be moved to the HUD and allow drivers to keep their eyes on the road more. The infotainment screen is okay.....most of the screens I've seen so far on it you don't really have anymore room than the current tiny screen, you just get another optional side panel next to it for a clock or something silly. Plus they make a big deal that it's 13" wide.....yeah but it's only 3.5" tall. No one wants to navigate on a 13"x3.5" map. Don't care about the console shifter. Seats still look super narrow, the console is too wide, narrow it up a couple inches and open up the "roominess" of the driver/passenger seating. Still comes with a 1980's sunroof, no excuse to not have a panoroof option in 2020, much less 2022. Still doesn't look like there's any aux switches built in. The climate control looks like a 1990's head unit. Also the cameras, for me anytime I'm driving less than 10 mph, put the cameras up on the screen, and those views should be visible while driving at any speed without a time limit. Somehow GM thinks it's safe for them to flash up the rear/side view while I'm towing a giant trailer and attract my focus to the infotainment center, but unsafe for me to see those views when I'm not. It now has paddle shifters which sound fun, but they also risk winning the title of slowest vehicle with paddle shifters! Hopefully they fixed the interior lighting, the front seat lighting (unless you are reading something in your lap) is the worst of any vehicle I've had since my 76' blazer. These are basically $80k trucks, they should have footwell lighting, glove box lights, real console lights (in the lid shining down, not the useless one they have now) etc.

Yep, GM is now the only big player still using steel leaf springs from the early 1800's for it's rear suspension. That said they are also the only big truck player that offers a tiny sunroof from the 80's when everyone else offers giant panoramic moonroofs. Also these days their 420hp/460ft/lbs 6.2 isn't anything special. Everyone has 400+ hp now. Hopefully they at least offer a larger gas tank than the 24gal baby tank. We shouldn't be surprised, GM really has proven for decades it has no real idea what an off-road truck is, and they focus on a solidly built, quiet, fairly nice interior. I was really shocked they did not fix the approach angle on the AT4, it still has the mall crawler front bumper. Looks like it might be a tiny bit better than the old AT4, but not much and no where near the ZR2. Also the 32.6" tires with the same square wheel wheels are going to make putting anything on that's larger than 33.5"-34" or so an issue if you really off road it. A level doesn't let you add a bigger tire if you compress the suspension, if it rubs on the factory suspension, it will rub on a level as soon as you compress the front end off road. The way I see it, for basically the same $ as a high package 35" Raptor you can have an AT4-X. It might have a bit more refined refined...subdued...luxury car.....grandpa'ish interior, but the only advantage it has over a Raptor off-road is a front electric locker, and it's probably a few inches narrower. I'd be willing to bet those two advantages are vastly overshadowed by the fact that the Raptor has more clearance, better approach angles, 35" tires, computer controlled only the fly suspension dampening, significantly more articulation and suspension travel front AND rear, not to mention way more aftermarket support. The ZR2 with it's significantly better front approach angle and it's greater wheel well room for bigger tires is a better off road performer than the AT4-X will be.

It's clear GMC is going for the luxury title, with even more grandpa features like massage seats! It's some optimistic pricing, but not surprising. For that I'd rather order a high trim raptor on 35's or spend a bit more for a TRX, there are dealers now taking orders on TRX's below MSRP, and Raptors at MSRP if you do the legwork. Can't really blame the manufacturers I'm sure they see that dealers are selling pickups with $5-10k over MSRP market adjustments, and the crazy high over MSRP prices at auctions for used trucks and want to get in on some of that $. Basically the MSRP of the AT4 looks like it went up about $5k, so I'd bet a loaded At4 is probably $70k now, and you're paying another $5k for lockers and massage seats, and wood interior and a 1990's sun roof. No one knows what GMC will offer on the AT4-x for incentives, but I'll take a high package Raptor on 35's over a AT4-X anyday for basically the same price unless GMC is going to offer $10k of incentives on them to keep an effective price gap. Based on this I'd bet a loaded ZR2 prices out at very close to $70k. It's basically a loaded 21' AT4, with lockers, skid plates etc. and that is similar to the price upcharge for the ZR2 in the colorado. Honestly the ZR2 looks to have much more front end clearance. At4-X still has the mall crawler front end, though it looks a bit higher than the 21's. Again it comes down to what the real price is, if a loaded ZR2 is really going to be $70k, no real incentives due to it's high demand/limited nature, I'd rather order a high package raptor on 35's for not much more $ and get WAY more truck.

Just as an update, my conclusion basically is that of various wipers I've tried Bosh/Michelin/OEM the OEM ones seem to be the best over time. Not sure what the difference is but non-OEM ones quickly do the same thing I noticed in my OEM ones after about a year, they streak on the drivers side under where the arm attaches. If I replace with OEM they seem to be fine. Which is funny because in 35+ years of owning vehicles I've never had one where the OEM wipers were the best option. I almost wonder if there's too much pressure on the wiper at the arm and it's wearing out/fatiguing the wiping edge there faster. Either way seems like it's not a bad idea to have a spare set of OEM wipers and an arm on hand.

I don't know GM is the king of charging more for very little added feature, and forcing you into top packages to get the best feature combos, just look at onStar. I would not be surprised to see something like ultra cruise and the full onstar functionality approach $100 a month, it's already $50 a month to get all the features, and they have so many tiers/options/add-ons that there are less combos on a chinese restaurant menu.

I think we'll see these issues for a long time, until they put sensors in the road that talk to the car, and possibly even cars that monitor each other. The reality is using optical cameras for staying in a lane, only works when the camera can see the lane markings clearly, rain/snow/direct sun, are always going to blind it. If they used more cameras with more angles of view it would help, but there's only so many angles you can get on the front of a car. The radar is great with cars and objects, but it can't identify lanes, unless they started using radar reflective lane tags. Ideally you'd have something in the roadway itself the car can track. Other wavelength cameras would do better in rain/snow and be less impacted by sunshine, but I doubt we'll see car companies use them anytime soon. Car companies clearly are not really interested in using the cameras in the best way possible, or they'd allow recording during driving. At the end of the day I'd imagine it comes down what 95% of decisions in all industries do, cutting cost = more profit.

Curious if anyone has pics/feedback on the Toyo AT3 in the SL rating. I don't tow much, and I'm not doing much for rocky/shale climbs around here so I'm not really worried about the extra puncture resistance of the E rated LT tires. Plus from what I understand typically the SL/P rated tires do better in the ice/wet as they have higher silica content, and their much lighter. I know they have a lower tread depth than the LT's but I'm curious if they still have an aggressive sidewall/look to them, I know some of the SL tires are tamed down looks wise to their LT counterparts. Tried searching but couldn't find anything specifically on the SL series.

100% Agreed, but there are tons of idiots out there doing just that. Paying over MSRP for Raptors, TRX's, Bronco's, V8 Jeeps, and even AT4's. Market Adjustments are all over the place now that cars are in such short supply and demand is so high. I highly doubt the ZR2 will be any different especially if it's in limited supply. Is it foolish, insane, both? Probably but remember right now people are buying Pokemon Oreo's for over $10k on ebay.......

Yep, sad reality is GM is already pushing the limits of the CV angles and upper ball joints with the factory 2" AT4/TB. Any more, especially with bigger tires leads to early failure/issues. The only good option is a 2.5+ inch lift that includes a diff drop. UCA's help with a level on the upper ball joints, but that just moves the early failure to the CV joint.

All depends on the pricing of the 22' ZR2/AT4-X. It seems like the 22' ZR2 has everything a loaded 21' AT4 does, plus more suspension travel, better shocks, and front/rear lockers. Not to mention the Silverado is way better for running larger tires with better wheel well clearance. I'd imagine there's going to be guys lined up to dump their TB/AT4's for the ZR2/AT4-X. If the trade difference wasn't that much I'd dump my 21' AT4 for a ZR2 in a heartbeat, if I wanted to stay in a pickup. That said, who knows what the future brings, the 22' ZR2 is listed as a "limited" model so it will be interesting to see what the real 22' or 23' bring to the table. I don't think we'll see more power unless it's a twin turbo or hybrid. The days of huge V8's are gone for general production. The Tundra Hybrid is going to have 30% more torque than the 6.2. I don't think GM will throw in with the Raptor R, or TRX, so no way we see a 6.2 supercharged. The problem right now is it's all a crapshoot with shortages, covid etc. Who knows what will really be available on the ZR2 next year when it ....maybe.....starts shipping. If demand is super high and production limited, we'll see $10-20k dealer markups, no rebates, no associate pricing etc.

The Raptor is usually neck and neck, depending more on modes, driver etc. I don't think the 2021 is really any faster. To me the 6.2 AT4 feels like it jumps away better, but once the Raptor is spun up, it's a rocket. It would be interesting to see the 0-100 times, because to me by "seat of the pants" feel the Raptor seems like it has more punch when you jump on it on the highway, and the AT4 has more power down low. Not really surprising given the engine differences. I just think it's amusing how GM makes such a big deal out of the 6.2 when it's pretty much average these days in power, when it's not eating it's own lifters. I honestly don't even think a truck really needs more power, sure I'll take more, but if I'm towing heavy, I want a diesel anyway, and if it's stoplight to stoplight there are tons of vehicles faster. Plus, while I didn't buy it for gas mileage, I wouldn't want to go much below the 14mpg I get now in mixed driving, not unless they stick a 36gal tank in it. If I had to guess the next engine we'll see will be a twin turbo, with more power than the 6.2 and better mileage. Maybe a hybrid option.

The real question is now that GM is jockeying again for king of the slowest 1/2 ton truck offerings, will we see more power. Ford has the Raptor, Powerboost, Lightning all faster than a 6.2 Ram has the TRX I'll bet the Tundra with the hybrid will wax a 6.2 with it's 30% more torque I suppose it will still be faster than the NIssan Titan.

Bronco is marketing genius, it's 95% of the off road ability of a Rubicon, but significantly better as a daily driver, with a much better laid out interior. It's easily modified to take up to 37" tires and a lift, and setup with most of what people want in an off-roader. It already has more aftermarket support than a Silverado does in off-road toys. It has it's issues of course, most owners will never notice due to pure nostalgia. The interior feels cheap and plastic, even compared to a JL and that's saying something. It was never going to get a V8, even the F150 raptor doesn't have one yet, and if it did, 99.9% of the guys screaming for a V8 wouldn't pay the $100k price tag for one with it. No different than the guys screaming how bad they want a supercharged AT4, most of them will get really quiet when it comes with a $85k price tag. Same as the guys that can't wait for a Raptor R, until they see the $100+k price tag. I wasn't comparing the silverado to the bronco, simply that the car market is nuts right now and unpredictable at best. We've seen dealers tacking on $10k market adjustments to AT4's, refusing discount pricing, tacking on things to make up the rebate, etc.. So if the ZR2 and AT4-x are much more limited in production than TB/AT4's and as such much more in demand. Those same dealers will happily add on big market adjustments to them as well, meaning MSRP doesn't matter because dealers will charge over it. I'd imagine much like Ford even if you order a GM you are not guaranteed pricing, and GM will simply cop out and say pricing is between the dealer and customer. If you want to know just how far off the pace GM is and where their priorities really lie......Ford brought back an iconic vehicle in the old Bronco name and gave us this, seen all over Moab and other off road spots carrying on the off-road heritage. Meanwhile GM had the Blazer another iconic full size off road vehicle, these days selling for almost as much as the old bronco's, and even the S10 version that was known for punching above its weight class, ZR2 versions, full aluminum skid plate options, with it's nearly indestructible 4.3L....and how did they honor those Blazers of old..... with something that even insults even base model S10 Blazer owners. As a previous owner of a 76' Blazer, and 98' ZR2 blazer, I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I first saw it.

Yes it is. Updating the UCA's will help with that issue, the upper ball joints will have a much better angle, which is good because we've seen a few fail catastrophically, however the CV angles are still bad, and the UCAs will not fix that. So most likely you moved the failure point from the UCA, to the CV joints and bought some time. Even on a stock TB/AT4 the CV joint angles are not good. GM cut huge corners up front on these things to get their "lift". Only safe "level" for these things is either remove the rear 2" spacer, or use a 2.5"+ lift that replaces the UCA and drops the diff. Other options are just how long before something fails, which depends on your setup, how you drive, if you use auto or 4hi, etc.

They might end up being like the Bronco, dealers selling them for $20k over MSRP, and offering those with reservations $10k at delivery to let the dealer keep it and jack up the price even more to someone else. Car lots are still basically empty many places, the car market is basically impossible to predict at this point what it will look like 6 months from now when these might be coming out. If they keep the normal Trail Boss and AT4 trims, they probably won't make high ZR2's production #'s. Add that to the fact that production is already a crap shoot with delays and parts/labor issues. They may be going to the highest bidders with huge dealer "market adjustments" The ZR2 is going to be in huge demand, especially since they probably won't be making that many if they keep the Trail Boss and normal AT4 versions going forward, and of course also depending highly on price. It offers from what I can tell everything the highest trim 21' AT4 does, plus lockers, better shocks, and much more functional front end for off roading. It won't compare to a Raptor, but it's WAY more truck than the current Trail Boss or AT4 is. If I didn't want to go away from a pickup, and I had another vehicle to get by, I'd dump my AT4 as fast as possible because the market is going to be flooded with guys dumping Trail Boss and AT4's once the ZR2's hit dealers this spring.