Grumpy Bear

Interesting thread.

OMG don't let @riddler see this

He has no clue what he means. Argues like a child. Somewhere a village is missing its......

True and well explained. *********General comment below not directed to Atlas*************** So what does it mean when I say Pepper uses no oil? That for the duration of my chosen OCI there is no perceptible movement in level on the stick. When I change plugs on the DOD cylinders they have some oil on the threads. Normal. Explained by the above missive. So I know it uses oil. Just isn't a MEASUREABE amount by the METHOD I choose to gauge it by. The dip stick. Why doesn't it change if it uses oil? Fuel, soot, moisture in a good GDI gas motor can be up to 4% total of the oil volume so in a six quart system at change time could be as much as 7.68 ounces of a six quart system. Call it a cup. Half a pint of lost oil made up by contamination products. Think it through.

Is that what I said Stan? Literally, what did I say? And this was in response to????? I’ve never experienced that phenomenon. And what phenomenon was that? My response was directly to the point of discussion. An experience SAID you've never experienced and so....you haven't any relevant experienced based information on that topic. It ain't that hard sir. Why drag it into the weeds implying I said or inferred something you know I did say nor intend? I know you have experience and are a good observer and I have always valued your input to the degree you share those experiences. I see you're one of those people that thinks they can 'say a thing true' if they repeat it long enough. Keep repeating to yourself, "Gravity is irrelevant and people that believe it are stupid." Then step off a cliff and ask yourself on the way down if physics gives a rats *ss about your belief. Your truck doesn't care either what you believe but it WILL respond to those beliefs exactly as you feed them. I hit a nerve repeating your words back to you trapping you in your inconsistency and NOW you want me to block you and protect you from the big bad bear? Fat chance. Bear is hungry

Oil consumption free for 20K miles then BOOM, it starts? And YOUR driving habits, environment, fluid maintenance had nothing to do with that? Some GM Engineer come into your yard at 20K and sabotage it? But your going to use Valvoline to free/clean the rings? Those are YOUR words I quoted. GM gave you an oil tight motor. Your inputs fouled them. If you believe those rings can be freed/cleaned by use of Valvoline's Restore and Protect then their fouling could have been PREVENTED GENIUS! If you don't believe it will work and your going to try it anyway.....WHY?

Sounds like relevant experience. Also in line with the OEM Engineers of both GM and Ford. Ford makes note in their oil consumption test that they will use oil for the first 10 K and not to do a consumption test before that point. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10169811-0001.pdf GM defines things like aggressive and towing. Break in, excessive idle, ect. https://dot.report/bulletins/11007091

Then you haven't any relevant input for those that have had that experience, right?

Amazing.

Yep, it happens, but... The test subject under discussion used none for 20K miles THEN started using. You tell me, what changed? He needs a... There isn't an intelligent discussion to have once we throw away facts, truth, reason, rules and reality. He didn't want an answer. He want's to be entertained. Disengage Number One.

As Pepper is on an alcohol diet... Today I toured the area and found: All below prices as of today for E-85 BP $2.60 BP $3.08 Casey's $3.30 Casey's $3.80 Meijer's $4.19 Speedway $4.31 Greed is alive and well in Illinois Wait! 93 octane E-10 Shell $5.30 Mobil $6.00 Marathon $6.59 Now their just making crap up!

Raven (2024 Mitsubishi Mirage G4) which I bought new I've now lived with for two winters and a summer and I've run UOA's on every oil change (3,750 mile OEM Severe Schedule) after initial break in. It now has 46K miles on it so quite a few data points all from the same Oil Analyzers (AMZOIL) Lab. Thank you Nick. So I'm telling you what I think. I'm telling you what the labs say. Weather matters and it matters a good deal. Labs tell me that even 3,750 miles is to long during the winter months and that during the summer the oil has a bit of life left in it on that schedule. It tells me running a grill block DOES impact oil life. The difference is about 35%. I listen to the physics and I adjust the OCI by season. So now someone needs to call the lab and tell them their idiots too.

https://www.tsbsearch.com/GMC/01-06-01-011I Also GM TSB #03-06-01-023 Someone needs to call GM Engineering and tell them ALL what idiots they are.

Chuck I'm not going to bang on you. I quoted you to highlight the issue of the impact off driving habits on the system under discussion. (Riddler) Efficient combustion produces what? CO2 and.......WATER. A little over a gallon per gallon of fuel burned. Humidity is a fractional of a fractional. Most of that water exits the exhaust pipe but a percentage of it leaks past the rings. (Leak down test). That tells you that ring seal has a great deal to do with how much water enters the crankcase. Once there, then what? If the oil is hot enough long enough it exits the crankcase via the breather (PCV System) and is reintroduced into the intake change where is exits the exhaust with a smaller percentage leaking back past the rings. What is left over is held in solution in the PPM range and eliminated on the next oil change. ( over about 1,000 ppm it becomes free water, see below). IF the oil never reaches temperature (short hopping, cold weather)) it collects and combines with other combustion products to produce acids. Those acids react with other combustion byproducts to make SLUDGE. Unreacted FUEL products NOT water will form VARNISH on cool down. How you drive MATTERS a great deal. Environment matters. It's PHYSICS, not on opinion. This yuk builds over time to foul the oil returns in the oil control ring land or sticking the ring; flooding that ring rendering it ineffective. If the motor didn't use oil for a prolonged period of time (20K) then the rings SEATED and then fouled or stuck OR that crap crapped up the PCV which made the oil worse and the rings stuck or fouled. That crap over repeated heat cycles carbonizes into a coke like substance that is very hard to remove without mechanical intervention; or was until the release of Valvoline Restore and Protect which breaks down that crap and allows it to be filtered out freeing both the ring in the groove and the oil returns in the land. Rings don't unseat, the bores wear out or the rings foul. Had the oil been changed often enough those reactions would have been rendered NULL. Had the oil been more polar those solids produced by those reactions would have stayed in suspension and never precipitated to begin with assuming you didn't try to run it to extinction. Even a sponge has a finite capacity. Polar oils are just larger sponges with the ability to hold varnish at bay and sludge either in solution or suspension to removed at the next oil change. At risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time....use better oil, change it frequently and treat the machine in a manor meant to give it an chance of success. ( @diyer2) Older motor designs that used thicker high tension rings resisted this mess with more radial force AND larger oil return capacity. Those motors also used MORE FUEL and generated MORE WATER by more than double. New motors are not all junk. They are NOT stupid proof. Neither were older motors. They were just operated by people that knew the difference between a sparkplug and a fireplug and didn't have access to the internet and it's AI garbage.

I have the same DLH faced thin light tension rings and GDI system in Pepper. She's got 193K on her and uses no oil. I treat it for what it is, not what I wish it was and we get along just fine. I don't short hop her. I use a polar oil and I change it. I use UOA's to spot issues with the fuel system. I practice what I preach. It's the advice we've been giving. Low tension rings are not a death sentence. They are a warning to treat it better than you had to in the past. You came with your hat in your hand looking for help. People are trying. Don't bite that hand.

Two things can be true at the same time. "Most" people don't alter service according to their driving style, habits and environment. They look at a book and think the OEM has the goods on this and proceed. In that case @newdude is dead on. It matters a great deal. IF however the owner makes sensible choices of fluids and fluid maintenance...then @riddler has a point. If I had to make a blanket statement (and I hate those) it makes a difference. A huge difference. And the colder the climate the bigger the difference "FOR THE SAME SERVICE". 2 cents worth.

Think I read in this tread where you affirm no leaks and it's way to early for guide/seal issues so..... Fist off, I don't know peanuts about the PCV system on this motor but @newdude does and a fouled system can cause consumption issues if it isn't working right and that number of miles it kind of checks that box. Perhaps he can speak to that. GM uses several vent system types; valved, baffled and orifice. They have procedures. I just don't know them. If it passes muster then we are back to rings. Fouled? Possible. Stuck? Possible. Valvoline Restore and Protect 5W30, as@newdude mentioned will free them over time. I wouldn't worry about the warranty. It isn't using oil. But you have to consider WHY any of this happened to not repeat it. That's another discussion.

About 500 miles on Pepper now since the latest maintenance. Was low 80's today and very pleasant. Moderate humidity and a nice northern breeze in double digits. 10 gallons of fuel set me back $53. Ouch. 222 miles so almost 24 cents a mile and 22.2 mpg on 36% alcohol. Whew.... I'm liking my Mitsubishi Mirage more and more. 11 cents a mile in this market but the truck in a nicer ride. She ran cool. 175 F water, 200 F oil and under 160 F on the transmission. I forced the fans on with the A/C in towns with low speed limits and long lights. Trans peaked 170 ish a few times in towns with low speed limits and long lights but would pull down to 150 F pretty quick once back in open air. Now that she has nearly 200K on the clock and well broken it the AFM will tip in at the drop of the hat and that is becoming problematic. The programing for the converter clutch struggles at city speeds so I find myself running in M5 for anything under 53 mph. 50 mph in high gear with AFM on was one of my favorite speeds for fuel efficiency. Not really doable now. Clutch shutter so it's 50 in M5 or M6 and 53+ or nothing. That's had an impact on fuel economy but makes it livable. Just part of the aging process. Happy to give away some milage to keep it out of self destruct mode. Now the Interstate is unchanged. 60-63 mph and low 20 mpg and running cool, smooth and in sync. Happy little camper. E-85 is locally priced at a point where even with the milage hit the cost per mile is attractive. Even runs a bit cooler. Off to it.

Might find this useful.

There are a few situations where I walk away. Flood or fire damage and major hail damage. The afore mentioned trapped between two semi trucks and rolled into a ball of tin foil. Tornado and flipped on her top. But those are also salvage situations. Have an uncle that bought a 36 Ford with a 60 horse flathead that transplanted the motor/trans into numerous vehicles eventually logging a million on the power train. Valves were lapped about 300K miles. Eventually it ended up as a working display for the Anamosa School district's auto shop program. Finally laid to rest when he was. It was his first ride. 36 C cab.

Serious complexity. Great read and thanks for the share @newdude

Fix it. Cost tells me what someone else want's. Worth is what others will pay. I don't pay much attention to worth. Worth retail? Wholesale? Private sale? Auction? Salvage? Insured total? All are different but it's same vehicle. They exist to make someone other than me money on that trade/purchase. Value? That is mine to determine. Value is personal and her value to me is more than her worth to anyone else. Value isn't shared experience like the market is. Part of that value is in knowing that each time I put the key in her she will cost me money and that number is far lower than anything currently being build that would be a direct replacement if there were such a thing. There isn't. But that's just part of it. I bought that truck for about 50 cents on the dollar with thirteen hundred miles on it. It was headed to auction. "Nobody" wanted it. YUCK A 6!! RCSB with a 300 hp V6. My best current dealer offer was recently a few thousand more than it listed for. "Somebody" wants in now but not beat to crap and worn out. She's not for sale. But tell ya what. If she got bumped for a $10K, that cost and what I paid for it is still less than that offer. As impressive as that is....I don't care about that. She is reliable, economical in every sense of the word, sharp and fun to drive. What are they selling now that would tempt me? Nothing. They don't build this truck anymore. I can add another but not replace her. Priceless. And still, if it were compacted between to Semi trucks, unfixable. She already owns me nothing. I'm not out a penny. That sir is value. IMHO.

This might deserve a separate response for further discussion. I'm not certain 'excessive maintenance' guarantees you anything against a structural failure or machining problem? (A snapped connecting rod as an example, or in the case of the 6.2, I don't see how changing the OCI will help if it is using the new oil specification. Unless going from 7,500 mile (used to be the longest allowable in the OLM software) intervals to 5,000 keeps the new specification oil in better condition to prevent the metal-on-metal contact that the 0-20 couldn't do. What if that interval becomes 1000 miles? I believe I've said multiple times in multiple threads that "No oil" can FIX a defective condition such as missed heat treat or machining issue. Correct, a shorter OCI in those cases is polishing the brass on the Titanic. But it is hard to claim these cases are the majority and the minority at the same time, right? Interesting idea about 'New Platforms" that haven't been around long enough to have created enough data to determine their reliability, issues, etc.. I had zero idea about the Ecotec3 LV3's when I bought Pepper and there wasn't any information on them other that ghost shorties in forums like this one to alert me to 'probable' issues like the Vacuum pump failures. At that time what was unknown was the screens on those pumps was fine enough to varnish closed pretty darn quick. New pumps, upon inspection, used a looser weave. And even a few of those in underserviced vehicles failed post haste. Not knowing any of this but knowing that "Excellence is not a act but a habit" I did what I always do and got the result I've always got. A problem free (for 192,600 miles as of to date) motor, braking system, transmission and differential. It's how I handle the unknown and unknowable. As it turned out the oil control rings on this motor are of the same 'type' as the problematic DLH faced low tension rings installed on pistons with inadequate oil drain back volumes that were also plagued with the oil consumption issues, Ecotec I-4. Some of these motors go on to long lives with standard maintenance and some don't and so one might ask what possible differences there could possibly be. Glad you asked. GDI pump failures and or leaky injectors left undetected is the difference. A leaky pump doesn't always mean a total failure that is easy to detect such as a rise in oil level. These pumps will linger on for tens of thousands of miles dripping fuel into the crankcase diluting the viscosity and building varnish silently and for as long as the condition lasts to the inevitable end. Plugged oil control rings and worse, Polished Bores. Testing will find it earlier but it too is not infallible as some labs run GC fuels only if the viscosity breaks below grade lower limits. Starting to use oil after not for tens of thousand but quite early in the motors life are a CLUE not to be ignored. More frequent oil changes MITIGATE that even when it happens. Oil is like a sponge and when it is full, you have to wring it out (change oil). Even if those pump and injectors don't fail some motors crash anyway (use oil, fouled rings). The CATS are warmed by dumping excessive bore washing volume of oil during warmups with the ignition timing re-tard-ed to about -15 to -20 degrees ATDC. Short hoppers suffer, Long hauler hang on longer. This is just the new reality and proactive oil maintence is key to keeping them alive.

Something we agree upon. A lack of the owners WILL or WISH for a shiny new bobble doesn't nullify the physics and accounting. Correct. No one gets to defy physics and Stribeck cannot be violated without MAJOR consequences. This includes the OEM's wishes and government mandates. I rinse and repeat the above. An exception to the rule (guys car get totaled or stolen) isn't so common as to cast it as an inevitable value in the calculous. Odds continue to support 'severe schedule" maintenance and when the book lacks such a schedule cut the OEM number in half. Typically what that schedule is anyway. Gen 1 SBC to the pre GDI LS engines are stone axes (cockroaches) and given EXCELENT care and an ADULT driver will outlast the average human beings lifetime. True for most makes actually. SBF and BBF give up nothing to their GM counterparts. In line 6 AMC, Ford 240/300 and Chryslers Slant Six's are bomb proof and will outlive a cockroach. https://www.motorbiscuit.com/89-year-woman-1964-mercury-comet/ One female owner on the original unopened motor. Granny can but Gen X can't. Honda D16Y5 SOHC three valve is the motor cockroaches wish they were for durability. I've seen dozens of these motors over a half million miles and not using oil, running like the day they left the factory. And on 20 weight oil no less on the severe schedule. I've also seen a 16 year old kill one with 200K on the clock drifting in 10 minutes. (sold mine to the kid next door for his birthday, mistake).

First let me thank you for a thoughtful and considered response. I redlined a key phrase for discussion proposes. The phase says there is a ONE and only one possible STATE of engine condition, operation and environment. There isn't and over the life of the motor condition changes. It wears out. Inescapable fact. Unless you live on the equator so does the environment. Give our temperament our operation, routine and habits may change as well. Ergo my statement stands correct. Now that said, there is more to agree on. In the last paragraph, you conclusion in bold, is correct. The STANDARD (book) does work for millions, for millions of people millions of times. IF YOUR vehicle is PRE-GDI, AFM, DOD, VVT. In which case, not so much. There are dozens of current lawsuits being litigated over 'Excessive oil consumption" and oil related brake vacuum pump failures due to oil maintence. In many of these cases the OEM response has been to....drumroll please...SHORTEN THE OCI significantly. In the most recent GM 6.2, increasing the VISOCISTY was the response. In the case of the Ecotec3 LV3 a TSB was quietly issued for ring replacement and shorter OCI's. Same ring 'type" as the Ecotec I-4 series that has been under litigation for the better part of two decades. I'm only covering the GM platform because this post would be as long as War and Peace if I cover them all. Your conclusion is about 20 years too late but there are still a FEW non-GDI, normally aspirated Nissan, Mitsubishi etc.. motors for which your conclusion holds. Then there is this... OEM numbers are a calculation based on warranty $$$$ not the machines best 'outcome'. They are in fact and deed padded a bit and they are also considerate of your main point. "I trade ever 5 to 10 years and don't put on more than 100K ish miles on a unit." not a direct quote but you get what i mean. You can win the game if you refuse to play the long game. Understood. Blanket statements are always problematic. Like lumping all owners into the same blanket even when they are a majority. Hum...and a few points I've take exceptional trouble to convey.... I don't write most of what I write on lubrication or maintenance in general for anyone but GUYS LIKE ME that keep them forever and are looking for an edge. I had expected after a decade that this was understood. I've often written, "Do as you like, I don't own it, repair it and it cost me nothing when you have an issue. Next, I find this one puzzling. I'll keep this simple. When I buy 3 for your 9 I get to spent the cost of 3 of yours on my 3 in 'excessive maintenance' and am still the cost of 3 ahead. Even if I wreck two I'm still ahead and I have gamed this out with the NHTSA data base. Wrecks, acts of god and the like are not as common as some would like to believe. Now all that said, I doubt any amount of discussion or explanation will change your mind and that wasn't what I was after anyway. I already explained that. I write mainly for those already convinced or those intrigued by the idea. But sir, I am keenly aware that people, on whole, will believe what they need to, despite the truth to justify the choices they make. Not my dog, not my fight but I do acknowledge the best we may have in this case is to 'Agree to disagree" and stay friendly.