Cowpie

Yep, that is correct. GM no longer owns the vehicle. it is no different than any other consumer product. When it goes to another dealer, that dealer is buying it from the other dealer... either an outright buy or just shuffled on paper via the floor plan financing.

Only you or anyone else can make the call if a vehicle is worth paying for what the dealer wants. Forget the incentives thing. that is marketing fluff to distract the buyer. Keep in mind..... GM already got its money when the vehicle landed on the dealer's property. If the vehicle even gets sold or how much comes off the MSRP is totally at the discretion of the dealer. Now, actually they probably have a financial backer that covers their vehicles via a "floor plan" arraignment. But GM still got all its money for the vehicle and the dealer has to pay the floor plan backer in interest for every new vehicle on the lot for as long as it sits on their lot. When you go in with that knowledge, you are not going to get all buffaloed with rebates, incentives and other nonsense. Just focus on pecentage of MSRP and let the dealer figure out how to apply any incentives and such to make it happen. And any dealer will make a decent profit at 80% of MSRP. In many cases, they will even tweak out a profit at 70% of MSRP. Now it is true, if a vehicle sits for an excessively long time on a dealer lot and they can't seem to get anyone to take it off their hands, the OEM "might" offer a little kickback to the dealer to soften their loss on the vehicle by dropping the price to get a buyer in the door. But the OEM is under no obligation to do so. Here is the straight scoop from a Ford dealer. The same applies to GM, Chrysler, et al.

The only 6.2 I know of that is still Flex Fuel is the Ford 6.2 in their pickups. I really like E85. I use it exclusively in my 2015 2500 6.0 and the wife's 2017 Equinox. The latter has 11.2:1 compression, and while it will take regular, it does far better on higher octane fuels. And E85 is 100 octane and $2 a gallon compared to $2.94 for premium in my area. The Nox has been fed E85 almost exclusively since we bought it. My 2500 has been on E85 exclusively for the last 3 years. Runs great on the stuff and there is almost no tail pipe deposits. The high compression DI GM 6.2 L86 would really benefit from E85. It needs higher octane to bring out the most in the engine. The new 6.6L L8T gasser in the 2020 2500/3500 would be a great candidate for E85 tuning. It boggles the mind that GM was so on board with flex fuel in past years and now is dropping the capablity from many of its vehicles. I understand others not wanting to use the stuff, but those of us who do are being left out. it really is cheap for an OEM to make a regular production vehicle flex fuel capable. Guess we will have to turn to 3rd party tuners to get tunes that allow for use of E85. The fuel systems on all new production vehicles are more than up to the task of dealing with E85. For those motivated to do so, DynoTune in South Dakota specializes in E85 tuning using Diablo Tune and EFI Live. They have a very good reputation. If I move up to a pickup that doesn't have E85 capability, I will give them a call. http://dynotuneusa.com/Welcome.html

You might be right. If it is a clean trade, I would accept no less than average trade value of the NADA guide. For a clean trade to only be rough trade value.... no way. They are going to turn around and try to sell it for more than then Retail value of the NADA, which is fair for them to do. They hope the next buyer doesn't know how to look it up in the NADA guide. And the little secret is..... dealers make their most profit margins on used vehicles. The vehicle is free and clear of their floor plan inventory so that they have no fianancial overhead while it sits on their lot.

Any dealer that offered 16% off, I would consider that only a opening offer. There is still room. Any dealer can still make a fair profit even knocking 20% off of MSRP. There are thousands of dealers around the country. One of them will take more than 16% off. Every new vehicle I have bought this century I have gotten at least 20% off of MSRP. Even different OEM brands. As for what the dealer would offer for trade, I would insist it be as least what the NADA guide shows the value of the trade to be. NADA guide is the standard reference for auto dealers and financial institutions from cars to trucks to motorcycles to boats to RV's etc. And each vehicle is a separate negotiation. I never allow both then new vehicle price and the trade in value be combined into one negotiation. Dealers like to combine the two into one negotiation so they can play slight of hand games and draw the consumer's attention away from what they are actually buying the new vehicle for. I focus only on what it would take to write a check and driver the new vehicle off the lot. The price before TTL is figured in. Then we can talk about what my trade in, if I am trading, is worth. And it has to be at least the value of the NADA guide,. No exceptions. Again, there is always another dealer down the road. And I have even had vehicles brought into a dealer and bought from them. Vehicles that I wanted that the other dealer would not budge on. I even had one vehicle brought over 200 miles from out of state one time. Any dealer that wants to sell a vehicle will actually be realistic in their pricing. After all, they have to pay their floor plan financial backer every month for the vehicles they have sitting on their lot. The OEM already got its money. The dealer is totally on the hook to move a vehicle off their lot. Those that want to make the most money will move the vehicles off the lot the fastest. And they are the ones who will agree to 20% off MSRP, or at least very close to 20% off.

I would agree. The L96 was introduced in 2010 MY.

Better in what way? Just saying "better" doesn't quantify anything. It needs to be broken down and shown what aspects of the results are better. Just having a lower NOACK for instance does not always equate to better real world results. A valid comparison of results would show actual results from similar motors in similar situations. Group IV has a limited ability to keep additives in suspension. Group III has a far better ability in this regard. Amsoil's OE line is all Group III. Amsoil's XL is a blend of Group III and Group IV. Amsoil's Signature, while primarily Group IV, has some group III to aid in keeping the add pack in suspension. I have never seen a claim of using Group V in its Signature line. And if they do, what is the Group V being used? A Ester? Polyalkalene Glycol (PAG), Polyester, or maybe a Biolube? Some of these would not be advisable in a engine, but they are all Group V. Maybe Amsoil has some Group V in some niche products like compressor oils and such

Whatever meets the spec and they can source from the lowest cost supplier. When my wife was buying her 2017 Equinox, I had a long chat with the dealership manager about this. He knew I was in business and used a lot of various lube products and was wanting to find another source for his bulk oil. I referred him to a couple of local distributors and told him to get some bids. I have no clue what he ended up going with. Now, for vehicle models that have specific brand recommendations like Mobil 1, the dealer carries some of that. And boy, do they charge a premium for it. I may have ragged on Amsoil, but I do use some of their niche products. Actually, I use about 5 different brands of lubes and oils. I am not a loyalist to any one brand for everything.

And while Amsoil is a good product, it gets all of its base and and additives from the same places as everyone else. They get the majority of their Group IV from Mobil. They get most of their add packs from Infineum (Shell) and Lubrizol (Berkshire Hathaway... you know, Warren Buffet). Much of their Group III base oil comes from Chevron and Shell. Amsoil makes nothing. They are a blender, just like Warren Distribution, Schaeffer, and many other brands. Amsoil does tweak the blend from the basic spec it is blending to meet, and that does lead to some better features in some of their products. But Schaeffer, for one, also does similar.

I take a little exception to some of that. Amsoil rarely uses any Group V. They primarily use Group III and Group IV. Also, I would love to see synthetic calcium, synthetic sodium, synthetic zinc, synthetic phosphorus, synthetic boron, synthetic molybdenum, etc. I have never seen synthetic versions of these additives. All of these a common additives in motor oils including Amsoil, Redline, and all the shelf and store brands.

Agree. But the cheapest in price is not always reflective the quality. Periodic sales pricing confirms that. The best one can do is find a oil that fits within their comfort zone and they sleep well at night using. And pay as little as possible for it. It takes a really lame modern oil of the proper spec to cause issues with an engine. Even most of the store label oils are more than up to the task. It is extremely rare that anyone has actual oil related issues. Most times it is operator screw up that is the problem or poor OEM design.

I run both diesels and gas truck engines. I use Schaeffer in both. I use Schaeffer 7000 15/40 CK4 in summer and 7000 10/30 CK4 in winter in my diesels. My gas engines get Schaeffer 9000 5w30 year round. I would have nothing against using Mobil/Delvac products if I wasn't using Schaeffer in my diesels. For my gassers, probably one of the SOPUS/Shell products. My wife 2006 Cadillac CTS 3.6, GM says it needs M1 5w30. I have used only Pennzoil Conventional 10w30 in it. A look at the testing results done by the Petroleum Quality Institute of America shows why..... I have no clue what Shell is doing with that product, but it blew away M1 and it gives Amsoil 5w30 and 10w30 a run for its money. It has a very heavy dose of molybdenum in it which is a very good thing, a great balance of Calcium and ZDDP complimented by Boron, and it has a NOACK level lower than M1 and close to Amsoil Signature. And I can get this oil for $18 for 5qt jug at my local farm and home store. Kinda knocks the argument that Group IV is the best argument on its ass. http://www.pqiadata.org/Pennzoil10W30.html

All this "true" synthetic vs "faux" synthetic is wasted time. There are some features of Group IV that Group III doesn't have, and there are some features that Group III has that Group IV doesn't have. Actually, the best is a mix of both Group IV and Group III. https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/533/base-oil-trends Even the best "true" synthetic will grenade and engine just as well as a "faux" synthetic if it doesn't have a good add pack. No base oil by itself will do the job properly. And Group III "faux" synthetic like SOPUS Gas To Liquid (GTL) made from natural gas, Group IV "true" synthetic is made from ethylene gas that is primarily sourced from natural gas. They are essentially the same end product. Oh.... and Group V is essentially everything that doesn't fit into Group 1 thru Group IV. There may not be any special to a oil that falls into the Group V category. Some of those are fine for use in an engine, some are not. https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups

Well, I just turned 1,028,490 miles on my 2012 Freightliner. Detroit 60 12.7L engine all original except for water pump. Still uses only 1 qt in 11-12,000 miles. Oil samples look as good as they did at 50,000 miles. Oil changed at 22,500 mile / 450 hr average intervals. OEM recommended drain is 15,000 miles / 300 hr. All it has gotten is Schaeffer 7000 15/40 in summer and 7000 10/30 in winter. The 7000 product is a blend of 75% Group II+ and 25% Group IV PAO. Still trying to figure out how some boutique oil like Amsoil could have done any better. And since I get Schaeffer for my commercial needs, I just go ahead and have oil thrown in the order for my GM vehicles. The 9000 5w30 for both my 2015 2500HD 6.0 and 2017 Equinox 2.4. The 9000 product is 75% Group III and 25% Group IV PAO. I think some fail to recognize that 20%, give or take a little, of any motor oil is additive package. And it is the add pack that really makes the most difference in how well a particular oil will perform.

Those mfg "incentives", "rebates", and such are a smoke and mirrors marketing game to draw in buyers. The dealer already paid GM for the vehicle. The OEM already got their money after the vehicle was delivered to the dealer. Either the dealer paid GM for the vehicle or their lending institution that bankrolls their floorplan did. And that price paid is substantially less than any incentives and rebate nonsense. Those are marketing gimmicks to make the customer think they are getting a break from the OEM as if the OEM still owns the vehicle and the dealer is just a go between. Nope, once the dealer takes delivery of the vehicle it is theirs and the dealer is totally on the hook for selling the vehicle. GM might give them a little kickback in the event they cannot get the vehicle sold as a way to reduce a loss, but GM is under no obligation to do so. All a dealer can do is continue to discount the vehicle until it gets sold, even if that means taking it in the shorts and eating a loss. A vehicle that doesn't sell does not go back to the OEM. It is the dealer's problem. The only "incentive" that the OEM gives a dealer is a "hold back" of around 2-3% off the invoice price which goes away after 30 - 60 days from delivery. If the dealer can sell the vehicle prior to 30-60 days, that hold back amount becomes pure profit to the dealer. If they don't move the vehicle in that time, the holdback goes away. For every day a vehicle sits on a dealer lot, it typically will cost about $15 in interest to the floor plan financing from their lending institution. So, every day that vehicle doesn't get sold eats more into their profits. This all is not some sort of "secret" insider stuff. You can find this information in many business and financial websites.

Well, considering that every major heavy diesel manufacturer is spec'ing and factory filling with 10w30 HDEO CK-4, that is what I would use in the 3.0. Even Ford has 10w30 on their approved list. Detroit Diesel, Cummins, Mack/Volvo, International all fill with 10w30. Just me, but I would never use a 0w20 in a diesel. But then, I wouldn't use a 0w20 even in a gasser. Maybe a 5w20 in a gasser. But for a diesel I would just use a 5w30 or 10w30 HDEO CK-4 (the latest recognized N. American spec for diesels) and call it a day.

Of course, California is really anal about this stuff. It has been reported that they are now randomly stopping pickup trucks and look to see if SCR/DPF units have been deleted. And as we all know, as goes California so goes the rest of the nation. The Feds are the ones behind this, so it really doesn't matter where you live or whether you have state emisions testing if you think it will not affect you. If one already has a deleted diesel, likely will never have an issue as long as the keep their fat mouth shut and not go around rolling coal and other nonsense. What we can hope for is that, according to Kory at PPEI, there will still be allowed performance tunes that keep things EPA compliant. I still think that someone might slip in a section of code that turns off EGR which is the main culprit in soot production and in creating the majority of problems with the motor and downstream stuff. So by all appearances, things will be in "compliance". But I think it will not be for a while till some try to slip this kind of code in. The eyes of the EPA are on everyone right now. When the dust settles, maybe.

If you can find anyone to delete. All the major players and reputable tuners are no longer offering delete tunes. Only Joe in a garage at the end of town might do it, if you are stupid enough to trust your investment to him and knowing that your vehicle will never go into a dealer again for anything. The EPA is really cracking down on this stuff. They will even get dealerships involved in reporting and even forcing the customer to pay to put the vehicle back into compliance. Of the tuners that have offered delete tunes, it is rumored that EPA is wanting their invoices from these deletes so they can track VIN numbers and go after individuals. PPEI, Banks, Bully Dog, PDI and EFI Live are all out of the delete game now. EPA went on a major crackdown in the last few weeks. PPEI was the last holdout to cave in. PDI got hit for 1.1 million dollars in fines.

Another member of the forum just got a new Dmax 2500 for $58,500. The MSRP was $70K. Sounds like a decent deal to me. The original offer to the dealer was $56K. Dealer countered with $59,900. Deal was settled at $58,500. That is about 83% of MSRP.. Pretty good deal.

Yeah, I don't like having to kill any snakes. I have a standing invite to the local county ranger that if he ever gets a bull snake that he doesn't know what to do with, bring it by and put it in my pole barn. I already have a very good, healthy over 4' bull snake living there now. Call him Beaurogard the Wonder Snake. He is a great mouse snake. Did have another snake in there helping out Beau, one of the largest Garter snakes I had ever seen. About 30" give or take. But the neighbor who stores his golf carts in my pole barn during the winter accidentally ran over and killed Beau's mouse buddy early this last summer. Snakes are great for the ecosystem. Wife can't stand them. I don't want to play with them either, but they do a great job for us.

Yeah, the demand in an area can skew the process. If I was a dealer and knew I could always get higher prices, I would not be in the mood to negotiate much off. That is why there are over 5000 dealerships in the country one can buy from. Call, email, text various dealers and negotiate. My 2500, I bought from a dealer about 60 miles away. I passed by 7 GM dealerships since they wouldn't step up to the plate and be realistic. One vehicle, I bought it from a dealer that would play fair, the vehicle I wanted was at another dealer and I had this dealer bring it in from the other dealer and make the sale. No one is tied to a chair and forced to deal with any one dealer for any one vehicle.

Taxes and fees are not part of negotiating the price for the vehicle. Taxes and registration are going to happen with any vehicle. Keep these things separate when negotiating the actual cost of the vehicle itself. And it is legitimate and reasonable for the dealer to require a fee to file all the paperwork and such with the government. There is no legitimate reason for the dealer to tack on any other fees. The OEM already compensates the dealer for "dealer prep" and the transport fees are included in the MSRP sticker. If a vehicle has an MSRP of $52K, I would never pay more than 80% or $41,600 for it. and try for even less. Taxes, registration, even the trade in (if any) come later in any deal. Keep all parts of the deal separate so that you don't get snowed with hidden fees and other rot a dealer might try to play games with. You are using numbers based on 75% of MSRP which might be a little unrealistic. $43K out the door is probably realistic if one is getting the vehicle at 80% of MSRP which is fair. That would mean taxes, title/registration, fees, etc are only about $1400 which also is reasonable on top of $41,600 price of vehicle (80% of $52K MSRP). If the dealer is saying the OTD price is $43K for a vehicle with an MSRP of $52K, then one should consider jumping on it. OTD means everything.... purchase price, taxes, fees, registration, everything. Hold them to it if they are saying the price is OTD. Else what they quoted is not OTD, and call them a liar if they try any funny slight of hand stuff. They said the price was out the door, which means the price one would write a check for and drive off the lot.

Not for personal use. NO truck or RV operator is required to have medical card, log book, CDL, DOT numbers, etc. Those requirements for commercial vehicle operators, such as running a dump truck that you mentioned. By it very name.... Commercial Drivers License... says it all. It is not required for personal vehicle operators. As was stated, there may be some additional license requirements by some states that require endorsements on the standard drivers license, but the majority have no such requirements. I am in commercial trucking. If I decide at some point to quit the business and use my semi tractor to tow around a large 5th wheel RV, I will not be required to have medical card, DOT numbers, log book, etc.... intrastate or interstate. I will probably just keep my CDL as it is my normal driving license anyway, including Motorcycle endorsement. It would be stupid to chuck it out the window.

Well, if the demand shows up, there will be some outfit that will have E85 modification kits and tunes available at some point. At least one can hope.

Seems to me from the these last posts that 20% is very realistic. And more if one puts forth a little effort. Great deals guys! One other thing that can help many times... call ahead and make an appointment and tell them what you are looking for. It gives the impression that you are a serious buyer, not just a looker. It can make any negotiation go smoother. I emailed or chatted ahead of time and set up appointments to meet for my last 3 vehicles. Still had to stand my ground a little, but the process was far more enjoyable.