Grumpy Bear

@customboss could have some fun with that See that lack of a ragged top but two peaks (3,000 cm-1)? I have an idea but I'm not the FTIR master.

Old School When GM was developing the SBC in the 1950's they did huge studies on fatigue limits of things like rods, pushrods and valve springs. And thinking they had that handled by designing the rods to take 120% load at peak power RPM for 1 million cycles, (what was considered in engineering as infinite life) they had it made. Shortly thereafter rod failures got silly and the beefed up "Pink Rod" was released. The lesson? Never underestimate the stupidity of the buying public to exceed all rational expectations. [Source material: Petersons Publications, Hot to Hot Rod the Small Block Chevy]. Look it up. Ford used a different approach when developing the monolog inline Six of 200 CID capacity. Seven main bearing steel crank and a valve gear that was bullet proof to 5500 RPM then put a cam in it that nosed over like a rock in a well at 4300 RPM. You'd have to run it out of oil to break it. You could fill the tank, start it, drop a brick on the go fast pedal and wait for the tank to empty cause kiddo's, it wont break. Ask me how I know . Lesson? Always bring more than you need to the dance. I'm old school. If I need a one ton jack I buy a duce and never give it a second thought. Do I need a Polyol Ester for a road motor? Did I need King Suspension? Did I need to revamp the cooling system? Did I need to maintain tires to run 125K. Did I get rewarded for those efforts? In Spades! Over engineer. Under Stress. But hey, you do you, right?

Same reason I wound up in Illinois. STUPIDITY. She said, "Get us out of Texas and I'll love you forever". Every once in a blue moon I get mentally lazy. Bored perhaps. I see the Kool-Aid sitting there and take a sip. I'd started reading a blog by a guy you may know, Rat540 who claimed QSUD was the hottest thing on the planet. There was also the new to me, GM requirement for a DEXOS1Gen2 licensed oil to keep the warranty in tact, which Red Line as you know is not. It was cheap. I gave in and the rest as they say is history. And now you know the reason I now protect me equipment and not the warranty. It's okay. I piecing together newer data on current formulations. But thanks anyway.

Requires? I think that has been established even by me. Dad's 390 Ford FE ran most of it's life on Group II/III base oil and made 700K before the car was totaled. Upon inspection is was indeed clean inside. It also spent it's life on OCI's averaging 1K miles and never more than 1.5K. The 92 article does say that these oils are 'goop;' by 5K. Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. You can't prove a negative with what wasn't said. So lets look at what the facts say. Hardly a chink in the armor my friend. Modern DEXOS1Gen2/3 oils routinely pack ring lands and ring drain backs. Terrain/Paseo GM even has a 'soak' procedure and chemical solvent for that purpose that is the first remedial step of a consumption claim past the test. This happens even at fractions of the OEM recommended OCI. I have never seen a RLHP motor with even a hint of carbonaceous materials in that area even at full length services. I have no reason to believe that these motors I inspect at 200-250K will decline over the next 200-250K miles. What that 92 post does say is what I posted. Relative temperatures at various loads and the bases ability to abate them and the running proof that both solvency and high temp indeed play a major part. It goes on to say the coefficient of friction of these blends is a fraction of other bases. These PAO/POE blends have a solid and measurable advantage in both heat capacity and heat transfer rates. I've posted those comparisons in this forum from my own research, RLHP v Mobil 1 v QSUD. You do remember I am a huge fan of Brit bikes, right? What was our favorite oil in the 50/60's? Castrol CASTOR BEAN OIL. No not HOBS but I mention to point out that I am quite aware of how slippery and clean these natural esters can run. I expect HOBS excels equally in those areas. You've provided photos of fleet motors doing just that. I also concede that HOBS will have a higher thermal limit hat straight up Mineral oils or even PAO. I recall some NEWLY rebuilt singles turning Bean Oil into a cinder in under 50 miles in the hands of idiots. Ride it like you stole it during break in on bean oil and it WILL nip up Follows my continuous theme. I don't invite trouble by seeing how close I can get to failure. I also understand that my choices will not be every ones cuppa tea. That you can get great results with other products if they are used appropriately. Machine operating in accord with the products ability and replenished often enough. I'll say that this is a very nice HTHS number for a *W20 oil and puts in on the radar for those who are more comfortable staying with a 'OEM Recommended" oil grade. Even if not licensed. Good film is a strong point of all actually used esters. Ever actually test their 5W30? Publish literature just says >2.9, the minimum spec.

Because? Now where in a motor might one benefit from such heat protection? Top ring under heavy load? Upper cylinder wall? Wasn't speaking of HOBS. Speaking of synthetic Polyols from bean oils vs those made from Isobutane (mineral derivatives). And HOBS would fall where on this chart?

Spitball Bases & Adds Seems bases run in two general categories, those that are used and those that are not. Too simple? Look, the ones not being currently used can be interesting and even good entertainment and yet useless to the guy trying to make a choice. Ditto additives. Know I don't know where everyone went to school so I don't know what their common experience (common sense) may be telling them, but given my background the base oil supports the machine and the additives support the base. So when I make a choice I'm looking base first, then additives and not visa-versa. Polyol Esters (NPG) are made from reacting a monobasic acid and a polyhedric alcohols. These polyhedric alcohols are synthesized. They can be made from diisobutylene which is made from products of mineral oil (Crude oil). OR they can be made from vegetable oil triglycerides and when made from vegetable oils are called Estolides. It's a bit more complicated but the end structure for both sources is a Neopentyl Polyol structure. The differences between the two are mainly Ecology. One is renewable and the other is not. I went to all this trouble to explain that of all the base oils being used the Polyols are at the top of the food chain. [link] [Quote} In general, polyol esters represent the highest performance level available for high temperature applications at a reasonable price. Although they cost more than many other types of synthetics, the benefits often combine to make this chemistry the most cost effective in severe environment applications. The primary benefits include extended life, higher temperature operation, reduced maintenance and downtime, lower energy consumption, reduced smoke and disposal, and biodegradability. [Close quote]. Comparing the tables in the previous post https://vintagetriumphregister.org/lubricants-redline/ showing the useful range of the various bases with the actual temperatures inside a motor. The only downside is COST Period. Full Stop. Regardless of the source of the alcohols'. AN's can't do this. PAO's can't do this and no amount of processing will even get a mineral based oil to this level. It's why it's used in Jet Engines. Now, that said.... The percent of POE/Estolide present and WHAT it is blended with matters HUGE. All this before the add package is even considered. That enough for tonight.

Could it be the family of additives XOM and Shell use in premium gasolines?

CMOC or short for "Chelate Metal Organic Compound". The trade name Fomblin® PFPE identifies a family of synthetic lubricants entirely composed of carbon, oxygen and fluorine, belonging to the class of perfluoropolyethers Non of those are metalic elements so CMOC and Fomblin are not the same or even related to each other. https://www.unpchemicals.com/resources/chelating-effect-of-metal-deactivators.html Fair discussion of CMOC's

That is allot of idle hours.

@VicFirth do us a favor. Send my HP line VOA to your inside guy and ask, "What up" cause I can't get a response from them after 20 years plus now that Grandquist has retired. That far off is way more than difference in equipment.

That is quite a bit different than the results I got ;( Is this the Professional Series Line? Or the High Performance Line?

I renamed my toilet Jim instead of John. People seem really impressed when I tell them I go to the Jim every morning.

https://www.syensqo.com/en/brands/fomblin-pfpe-lubricants/faq I know what I read and I read it in the above link. I'll look back for hints on CMOC in the previous post on this topic.

268,000 Mile Service 267,957 Actual 992 mile OCI 5 Quarts Castrol Euro 5W40 1 Purolator PL15436 Filter I see I should have waited another change or two. Noteworthy. Uses about half the oil on this oil than the Supertech Conventional 5W30 Fewer P0420 sightings Breather was pretty clean and the oil remained thick and slick. But ready to change. Dark brown but not black. A thousand on rings this bad is good by me.

Race Oil are and have always been POE. HP and HP Euro, PAO/POE blends and Professional Group III/IV blends. Published in Cycle World. [sniped from a BITOG post by Tim Vipond ] [Quote} I also found this from:http://www.pashnit.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9877 Ok, so here is the history lesson of why Red Line is #1. What they don't say is it started out as a small company called "All Proof", how do I know that? I knew the original founder Pete Filice. Since 1979, the privately-held Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation has grown to manufacture over 80 quality products, including motor oils, gear oils, assembly lubes, fuel additives, and its popular Water Wetter cooling additive for the automotive, motorcycle, marine, and industrial markets. Based in Benicia, California, the company earned a reputation with racers and enthusiasts alike for creating products that perform and protect better than any on the market, regardless of price. Originally founded by president Tim Kerrigan and Peter Filice (retired) to produce lubricants for the racing industry, Red Line Oil now distributes a diverse line of products in North America, Europe, Australia, and Japan. Developing and marketing among the most sophisticated lubricants in the world, Red Line’s products are designed to literally outperform for the task at hand. In 1986, the addition of Cornell-degreed Roy Howell as chief chemist brought Red Line Synthetic Oil Corporation into a league of its own, with a knowledge of available technologies, an ability to respond to technical challenges, and the ability to satisfy the needs of the performance industry. Red Line Oil’s team of chemists and blenders formulate fully-synthetic oils and chemically-advanced additives using only the world’s finest base stocks. This makes Red Line Oil the premium product on the shelf. It’s not designed to be the cheapest—it’s built to be the best. Rather than cutting costs by blending into polyalphaolefin base stock for its motor oil, Red Line Oil only uses superior poly ester-based products—resulting in lubricants that are extremely stable at high temperatures while providing superior film strength at lower viscosities where more power can be produced. The world’s top racing teams and most discriminating enthusiasts use Red Line Oil products exclusively. There may be a different sponsor on the outside, but chances are its Red Line Oil on the inside. [Close quote] ************************ There is a bit of double speak in this post that I highlighted in bold. The RACE line, Red Bottle, oils are still fully POE. The High Performance Line, white bottle, to the best of my knowledge never has been. Note stocks, plural, underlined preceding the next bold section. Then last paragraph segregating Race from Enthusiasts and interjecting "productS" in a flashy commercial finish. ************************ I'll keep my choice with more confidence that ever. What a great exchange we are having!!

That was an excellent read. Thank you. It corrected an idea or two AND added additional facts to incomplete ideas I have had, expanding my knowledge, and as such, reinforced many many more. This was an excellent example of how I learn best. When I'm told I'm wrong I pay very close attention to the next thing said. IF that thing reinstructs me to a truth I get all warm and happy. If that thing instructs me to submit...Houston, weeeee have a problem. If that thing tells me I'm just wrong but can't be told what's right then I IF that next thing is ridicule then

Broken link? I can't open it. Break time.

Boy do you have to be careful when you Google that company! Say MOTOR OIL afterwards or you wind up on a dirt road in Mississippi. So what happened to these guys?

I see someone else has the skills to find truth in chaos. Good show!! I got'a tell ya guys. I worry about the idea the "NEW" means "BETTER" when most of the time it means "CHEAPER".

I used to be, when I had good ears, quite an audiophile. 1970's component days and all. So my favorite store had 'listening rooms' where they would set up your choice of equipment and you brought your own wax and you got to listen, mix and compare to your hearts delight. At the end of the day I walked out with a $150 Pioneer belt drive table with a $150 upgrade Osawa low mass graphite head and reverse wound MIC armature with Sapphire stylist. To me and to the "O" scope I could detect no difference that made a difference between it and a $2K Bang & Olufsen direct drive. When I look into a motor at life cycle end of the vehicle and see it as clean as the day it was build and measurements still well inside new spec I don't ask what more I need from my oil. I ask what more I need to know to keep the thing it is propelling last longer. It has to matter to make a difference. I never looked at the lower shelves of AMSOIL or Red Line or MPT or TORCO because they are similar to what it on the shelf at Walmart, Amazon or O'Reilly's. I've used those oils and have suffered using them. I watched my father use those same shelf oils with great success but never at the OCI's being recommended. By the time the OCI got short enough to get a similar cleaning result it cost more than RLHP.

Truthfully? I have no idea. I have done zero research looking into the Professional Series Oils offered by RL. Actually haven't done a dive into the AMSOIL XL line either so I really don't have anything to offer to that discussion.

Apples to apples. Let's keep it legit. Compare XL to Red Line Professional. Engineering doesn't have a party or religion or a color or nationality. It has science and since that is the bases of engineering then anyone who adheres to it will get similar outcomes. I've seen some very well written papers from every country. Now if we could just get these reports in English

Two questions @customboss. How do AN's register in oxidation? Os-PAG?

Never looked at it like that but it does have the 'ring of truth' to it. ************************* General comment not tossed at @customboss If Shohei Ohtani were to come here and speak at length about how to pitch a shutout, would you listen if pitching were of interest to you? Likely. But what if you had no interest? If you though yourself equal? If he just dumped your sister? If he disagreed with you? Perhaps not. Seems for some, what it true is irrelevant if it gets in the way of ________________________. Would you expect him to submit to the lie he only has a .120 BA?. Not a claim you make in secret to his face but one you promote before a crowd? Would he? Remain silent? While you slander him? Ya know....he might be that big a guy. Me...I have trouble with liars. Especially when they make it personal. Too Trumpy for me.

Yes, I just had it run out of the bottle of the case I'm using.