Grumpy Bear

Third time. Some consumption is 'masked' by fuel dilution, soot formation, acid formation of blowby gasses. Oil consumed offset by degradation products produced. 2 to 8% How much is that of your sump volume? for Pepper that is 4 ounces to a pint of oil. Why is everyone aware that we check transmission fluids at operating temperatures due to thermal expansion and ignorant or at least dismissive about this issue for the engine oil? Ever allow a motor to drain at oil change for a period of 'overnight"? Measure on the dipstick every quarter hour for say 2 hours and educate yourself. Then let is sit overnight (cooler) and ask the expansion and dilution questions again.

That's a good video @Atlas. On point and informative. Highlights the changes over the decades. Experience needs to be informed of pertinent changes to remain relevant. Nice find. Thanks!

170+ mile trip to dads today (one way) 87 regular started at $4.99 here and was $3.67 in Iowa. On the way back their is a Love's and a BP on the Interstate (39) 10 miles from the town closest to me. Gas was $4.09 both placed. A half mile closer to home Marathon was $4.59 and at home Still $4.99. I bought Shell V Power Nitro + 93 in Morrison Illinois for $4.85 and on the way back same gas in Rochelle for $5.01. Yea, same price as Regular 87 next door to me.

193,412 Mile Services Transmission, 6 quart "Spill and Fill" Red Line D6

Where does the oil on the spark plug threads come from on the DOD cylinders? If a motor uses ZERO oil then what lubricates the valve guides and top rings?

Here's a good paper on this topic. https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2015-09/documents/waterphs.pdf

You may find this of interest. Not addressed in this article is that the UFP produced has some impact on elevated soot in the oil which only means it gets dirtier quicker. Just information and not a deal breaker. I use E-0 when it's cheaper. It does give a bump in fuel efficiency. https://www.enginelabs.com/tech-stories/mixing-e85-with-pump-gas-getting-higher-octane-for-less-money/ (Excerpt from above link below) Concerns About Ethanol These small blending mixtures of E30 to E50 maintain a large percentage of gasoline. The advantage here is that if the electric fuel pump in your street car is not rated for use with E85, a blending ratio of E50 or less can generally be considered compatible. You should consult your particular pump manufacturer to be sure, but a light blend of E30 should not cause any problems. Let’s also address the claimed issues attributed to using ethanol in older cars. Our own experiments and investigations have traced the source of many ailments not to the alcohol in the fuel but rather to the high percentages of aromatic additives used in all pump gasoline. These aromatics are often lumped together under the acronym “BETX.” This is chemical shorthand for benzene, Ethyl-Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene. These aromatics are present at anywhere from 20- to 25-percent (and sometimes more) by volume in gasoline. By themselves, BETX aromatics are not necessarily dangerous. But they are responsible for many of the problems in fuel systems, such as killing rubber fuel lines and affecting small rubber parts in carburetors. Of equal concern is a dangerous by-product created after combusting BTEX, creating what are called ultra-fine particles (UFP). These particles are small enough to enter your lungs and travel past the membranes and directly into your bloodstream. Not good. By mixing ethanol with the fuel, fuel companies are able to reduce the concentration of BETX in the fuel. Conversely, alcohol-free fuels as sold in many Midwestern states contain much higher percentages of BTEX to compensate for the loss of ethanol in the fuel.

Let's reason it out. If the motor is equipped with a knock sensor and that sensor is telling the ECU to pull timing then more timing is available if it gets more octane. Octane that eliminates that KR (knock r-e-t-a-r-d) adds timing and nine times out of ten increased BMEP (torque). The improvements are measurable on an engine dyno but can be small enough that your seat of the pants may not notice. Sometimes it will. More torque at the same rpm allows lower TPS values for the same load which leans the motor a bit in the part throttle part of the map. Will you notice it? Ever watch Engine Masters dialing in a motor bumping timing 2 to 3 degrees at a time UNTIL power drops off (incipient knock point). There's a Aussie tuner that tunes the entire map by this method. Further reasoning. A knock sensor has to HEAR the knock to react to it so doesn't move the timing until the shock wave is pounding the rings lands. Yes there is a difference in "Intensity" and the maps are well fretted to prevent most engine damage...until it isn't. KR is driving in the rearview mirror. Give it a bit of thought. Peck at the ring lands often enough even micro pecks will eventually hammer to the ring grooves. In my Ecotec3 4300, which is a flex fuel rig, the base map is 87 Octane but, and I watch it via a Scan Gauge II device along with fuel trims, will pull up to 9 degrees of timing on a 6% grade on a warm day with zero load at 60 mph in high gear. When I use 93 that value drops to under 3 degrees on any hill. When I use E-85 at over 80% it is ZERO KR. The milage difference between 87 and 93 hasn't been noticeable over the 150K miles i played with that. Been on E-85 and now at 193K+. In fact none of my 87 octane recommended vehicles of several makes looses even a fraction of a mpg using 93 and every one of them reduced KR. Lastly. Shell V Power Nitro + 91 or 93 and Exxon Mobil Supreme Premium 93 all three contain a proprietary antiwear/anti friction additive that has been PROVEN to significantly reduce bore/ring wear. Both Shell and Lake Speed Jr have some pretty good videos on this product with receipts. Dyson Labs LLC was my intro to the product. The fuels listed are the ONLY fuels of any rating CURRENTLY using these additives. Shell was there first and has the most data. FYI. Like Ripley....Believe it or Not. This will get some blow back so I won't respond to it.

Interesting thread.

OMG don't let @riddler see this

He has no clue what he means. Argues like a child. Somewhere a village is missing its......

True and well explained. *********General comment below not directed to Atlas*************** So what does it mean when I say Pepper uses no oil? That for the duration of my chosen OCI there is no perceptible movement in level on the stick. When I change plugs on the DOD cylinders they have some oil on the threads. Normal. Explained by the above missive. So I know it uses oil. Just isn't a MEASUREABE amount by the METHOD I choose to gauge it by. The dip stick. Why doesn't it change if it uses oil? Fuel, soot, moisture in a good GDI gas motor can be up to 4% total of the oil volume so in a six quart system at change time could be as much as 7.68 ounces of a six quart system. Call it a cup. Half a pint of lost oil made up by contamination products. Think it through.

Is that what I said Stan? Literally, what did I say? And this was in response to????? I’ve never experienced that phenomenon. And what phenomenon was that? My response was directly to the point of discussion. An experience SAID you've never experienced and so....you haven't any relevant experienced based information on that topic. It ain't that hard sir. Why drag it into the weeds implying I said or inferred something you know I did say nor intend? I know you have experience and are a good observer and I have always valued your input to the degree you share those experiences. I see you're one of those people that thinks they can 'say a thing true' if they repeat it long enough. Keep repeating to yourself, "Gravity is irrelevant and people that believe it are stupid." Then step off a cliff and ask yourself on the way down if physics gives a rats *ss about your belief. Your truck doesn't care either what you believe but it WILL respond to those beliefs exactly as you feed them. I hit a nerve repeating your words back to you trapping you in your inconsistency and NOW you want me to block you and protect you from the big bad bear? Fat chance. Bear is hungry

Oil consumption free for 20K miles then BOOM, it starts? And YOUR driving habits, environment, fluid maintenance had nothing to do with that? Some GM Engineer come into your yard at 20K and sabotage it? But your going to use Valvoline to free/clean the rings? Those are YOUR words I quoted. GM gave you an oil tight motor. Your inputs fouled them. If you believe those rings can be freed/cleaned by use of Valvoline's Restore and Protect then their fouling could have been PREVENTED GENIUS! If you don't believe it will work and your going to try it anyway.....WHY?

Sounds like relevant experience. Also in line with the OEM Engineers of both GM and Ford. Ford makes note in their oil consumption test that they will use oil for the first 10 K and not to do a consumption test before that point. https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10169811-0001.pdf GM defines things like aggressive and towing. Break in, excessive idle, ect. https://dot.report/bulletins/11007091

Then you haven't any relevant input for those that have had that experience, right?

Amazing.

Yep, it happens, but... The test subject under discussion used none for 20K miles THEN started using. You tell me, what changed? He needs a... There isn't an intelligent discussion to have once we throw away facts, truth, reason, rules and reality. He didn't want an answer. He want's to be entertained. Disengage Number One.

As Pepper is on an alcohol diet... Today I toured the area and found: All below prices as of today for E-85 BP $2.60 BP $3.08 Casey's $3.30 Casey's $3.80 Meijer's $4.19 Speedway $4.31 Greed is alive and well in Illinois Wait! 93 octane E-10 Shell $5.30 Mobil $6.00 Marathon $6.59 Now their just making crap up!

Raven (2024 Mitsubishi Mirage G4) which I bought new I've now lived with for two winters and a summer and I've run UOA's on every oil change (3,750 mile OEM Severe Schedule) after initial break in. It now has 46K miles on it so quite a few data points all from the same Oil Analyzers (AMZOIL) Lab. Thank you Nick. So I'm telling you what I think. I'm telling you what the labs say. Weather matters and it matters a good deal. Labs tell me that even 3,750 miles is to long during the winter months and that during the summer the oil has a bit of life left in it on that schedule. It tells me running a grill block DOES impact oil life. The difference is about 35%. I listen to the physics and I adjust the OCI by season. So now someone needs to call the lab and tell them their idiots too.

https://www.tsbsearch.com/GMC/01-06-01-011I Also GM TSB #03-06-01-023 Someone needs to call GM Engineering and tell them ALL what idiots they are.

Chuck I'm not going to bang on you. I quoted you to highlight the issue of the impact off driving habits on the system under discussion. (Riddler) Efficient combustion produces what? CO2 and.......WATER. A little over a gallon per gallon of fuel burned. Humidity is a fractional of a fractional. Most of that water exits the exhaust pipe but a percentage of it leaks past the rings. (Leak down test). That tells you that ring seal has a great deal to do with how much water enters the crankcase. Once there, then what? If the oil is hot enough long enough it exits the crankcase via the breather (PCV System) and is reintroduced into the intake change where is exits the exhaust with a smaller percentage leaking back past the rings. What is left over is held in solution in the PPM range and eliminated on the next oil change. ( over about 1,000 ppm it becomes free water, see below). IF the oil never reaches temperature (short hopping, cold weather)) it collects and combines with other combustion products to produce acids. Those acids react with other combustion byproducts to make SLUDGE. Unreacted FUEL products NOT water will form VARNISH on cool down. How you drive MATTERS a great deal. Environment matters. It's PHYSICS, not on opinion. This yuk builds over time to foul the oil returns in the oil control ring land or sticking the ring; flooding that ring rendering it ineffective. If the motor didn't use oil for a prolonged period of time (20K) then the rings SEATED and then fouled or stuck OR that crap crapped up the PCV which made the oil worse and the rings stuck or fouled. That crap over repeated heat cycles carbonizes into a coke like substance that is very hard to remove without mechanical intervention; or was until the release of Valvoline Restore and Protect which breaks down that crap and allows it to be filtered out freeing both the ring in the groove and the oil returns in the land. Rings don't unseat, the bores wear out or the rings foul. Had the oil been changed often enough those reactions would have been rendered NULL. Had the oil been more polar those solids produced by those reactions would have stayed in suspension and never precipitated to begin with assuming you didn't try to run it to extinction. Even a sponge has a finite capacity. Polar oils are just larger sponges with the ability to hold varnish at bay and sludge either in solution or suspension to removed at the next oil change. At risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time....use better oil, change it frequently and treat the machine in a manor meant to give it an chance of success. ( @diyer2) Older motor designs that used thicker high tension rings resisted this mess with more radial force AND larger oil return capacity. Those motors also used MORE FUEL and generated MORE WATER by more than double. New motors are not all junk. They are NOT stupid proof. Neither were older motors. They were just operated by people that knew the difference between a sparkplug and a fireplug and didn't have access to the internet and it's AI garbage.

I have the same DLH faced thin light tension rings and GDI system in Pepper. She's got 193K on her and uses no oil. I treat it for what it is, not what I wish it was and we get along just fine. I don't short hop her. I use a polar oil and I change it. I use UOA's to spot issues with the fuel system. I practice what I preach. It's the advice we've been giving. Low tension rings are not a death sentence. They are a warning to treat it better than you had to in the past. You came with your hat in your hand looking for help. People are trying. Don't bite that hand.

Two things can be true at the same time. "Most" people don't alter service according to their driving style, habits and environment. They look at a book and think the OEM has the goods on this and proceed. In that case @newdude is dead on. It matters a great deal. IF however the owner makes sensible choices of fluids and fluid maintenance...then @riddler has a point. If I had to make a blanket statement (and I hate those) it makes a difference. A huge difference. And the colder the climate the bigger the difference "FOR THE SAME SERVICE". 2 cents worth.