Grumpy Bear

Yes sir. Dad gets 300K falling off a log. 2500 OCI and mineral oil. Last ten years or so he's traded horses. Syntech and pushing 15K without UOA and so far....getting away with it. Of course he's doing this experiment on my brother-in-laws Olds. An adult, well written and refreshing perspective. Thanks for sharing it. Glad you enjoyed it. I've been a bit scattered recently. Four funerals in ten days. I'm about tapped out so slow on the trigger.

Rational thought. That's what I argue for. I'm not in the mood for mindless bickering. So.....let go back to the OP's question and it wasn't about longevity. It was about requirement. No...the DFM does not require it. It functions over a wide range of viscosities. The oils viscosity changes with temperature. Temperature changes with load and speed and weather and dilution and and and.....Oil's primary function in the motor is not hydraulics....it's hydrodynamics. Viscosity is chosen for hydrodynamics. It is chosen for an expected MINIMUM viscosity that may be seen during the life of the oil. THIER expected life. Evidently that number is really small as they find 240 F 'normal' while running a 0W20. It requires a MINIMUM USED OIL viscosity. Rational thought? Change you oil. Two different issues. All oils shear and shear does cause a viscosity change and it is always lower. Oxidation causes a viscosity change as well and that is always higher. Dilution does not cause a shear related viscosity reduction. It is a dilution related viscosity reduction. Rational thought? Change your oil. Those are MY thoughts. If you don't agree...Great! But you didn't ask for them....did you OnTheReel? Easy TXGREEK, my dance card if full. Ah...Rational thought!! Not so hard, right? Where were you earlier Hawk?

Turning Point Care package came from AMSOIL today. Thank you Nick! I've been presenting this piece meal fashion. It's my process. Sorry about that. There are five parts to this project. 1.) Oil Quality 2.) Oil Cooling 3.) Oil Cleanliness 4.) Oil Change Intervals 5.) Oil Stress There is but one goal. Knowledge. Longevity is the vehicle. Cost is NOT a consideration...within reason. But what is reasonable? Most of my life I've had little issues getting 200K plus from anything with four wheels on nothing more than 5 to 7.5K OCI, good oil and name brand filters. It's my nature not to stress oil very much. My driving style gets moisture out and holds shear and heat in check. I would have been happy with that for the rest of my life if it hadn't been for the last few years of the insane price increases of vehicles coupled with a severe dumbing down of basic quality and mandated over complication and compliance. Nutshell? Greed is getting too greedy. I can by allot of oil and filtration for $50K and as I have been able to skip buying every other vehicle I thought why not every third or maybe even fourth. I needed a new mind set. Less follow the leader. I think I have one and I'll lay it out.

Wow! Where would one start? Lets start with 'know better than GM'. Well skip over the inability to tell the difference between a 'keyboard engineer' and an actual Engineer. Lets go strait to LOGIC 101. You want to side (trust explicitly) with GM in choosing the lubricant because 'they know better'. Okay. Is this the same set of engineers that designed the AFM system you bypassed because it's a piece of junk? The same engineers that designed the cam and lifters that fail. Oil pumps that fail. Vacuum pumps that fail. EPS that fails. Transmissions that are 'stumbling drunks'. Driveshafts that explode. Axels the wobble. The same engineers that test your failed equipment and deny your warranty claims. The guys the designed your PCV system so ineffective you put catch cans on. Those engineers? Let's move on to 'complex oiling systems'. We could argue that but it might be more productive to ask that even if that were true, and I'm not in agreement that it is, how did that change the lubrication function and interaction between the oil and the things it lubricates. Yea, the fundamental requirements are the same for babbitt bearings in your grandfathers Model T as the are in a GP bike. Provide a film thick enough and strong enough. Cool. Clean. Fight friction. Does it matter how 'good' the oil is if you insist on mistreating it, ignoring it and expecting to much from it? I haven't seen a light bulb come on yet for anyone that tells me they understand the significance of the OPERATIONAL temperature/viscosity relationship beyond what it says on the a data sheet. You want to argue that the VVT/DOD wont work properly or the engine will be damaged due to 'wrong' viscosity if any other oil but 0W20 is used but fail to grasp that a guy like me that drives the double nickel and whose bulk oil temperature is 195 F vs a guy that is towing 10,000 lbs. in the desert at 70 mph with a bulk temperature is 250 F has already EFFECTIVELY moved the viscosity FOUR SAE steps. 20W to 50W is the spread between these two temperatures to obtain the same 'running' viscosity. Yet both systems work just dandy. You know this well enough to be dismissive of 'keyboard' engineers. Let me take a WAG. I'm being mean.

I got hooked on the $32 a gallon gas for awhile. Then I went to the station and store, bought my gas, oil and some seafoam and made my own for like $4 a gallon. Drain them over the winter.

Omeprazole, Zantac. People take these drugs to cure acid reflux from eating a diet or living a lifestyle that aggravates acid production. They could just give up those foods that hurt them and destress, but they don't and they won't. We are kind of like that about allot of things....like lubrication. Except with lubrication we also tend to deny a fact if it doesn't suit or preference. Heat is a great example. True, Synthetics will tolerate more sensible heat than mineral oils. Sometimes by a lot. Thing is they respond in the same way to that heat. Resistance to flow decreases. A viscosity drop. I hand generated this table from data obtained from Donaldson for straight weight oils. It wouldn't copy from the PDF in was in. Look at the 40 C viscosity for 20W. 68 cSt. In a 0W20 that number is roughly 48 cSt. Below that point the differenced are greatly different. That's info to stop backlash for the next statement. Above 70 C (158 F), just above the EP additive heat activation point there isn't a nickels worth of difference in viscosities between straight weights and multi weights. Synlube I believe generated this graph from 0W30. So take a second and look those over. Now think bearing temperatures run 75 F hotter than the sump temperature. Ring land temperature of the oil runs in a gas motor in the 300F range under average load . Funny how that is the same temperature as the test temperature for the HSTS test, right? Add this thought. Milk at room temperature has a viscosity of 3 centipoise and as milk has a density a hair over 1 the cSt viscosity is just under 3 cSt. About the same as Red Line 0W20 at 302 F. Beat like a pup and you can push it to near 400 F. Oil in that space of about 3 to 10 um between the ring and wall has the consistency of milk. Good to know that film strength isn't tied DIRECTLY to viscosity, right? At these temperatures even moderate reductions in sensible heat have a large impact percentage wise on viscosity. That's a long way around to say that even if the chemistry of the lubricant can tolerate the heat from the point of thermal oxidation it's viscosity is still subject to the laws of nature. Viscosity is huge in the formation of hydrodynamic film thickness every rotating part in the motor depends on to prevent contact. But we have Zantac, right? ZZDP? 1.) I use the best oil I can afford to lay my hands on. 2.) I will be mindful of the heat viscosity relationship. 3.) I keep it as cool as possible but warm enough to drive out moisture and activate heat sensitive additives. 4.) I will filter it as well as products, services and truthful information allows 5.) I will treat it like I don't have access to any of the above. If I were only going to be allowed one truck for a life time, this is how I see it's services. It likely is.

GM submitted a paper to the SAE which was published and showed a direct correlation between particle contamination and engine wear. Read here: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30697/choose-oil-filter It's what the study says. But not what you hear from whom ever is selling whatever. Lubeguard for example states in their FAQ area the 'number' to hit is sub 3 um. They offer 3 um at a Beta of 75 or absolute according to SAE standards. Frantz claims 5 um capable without a Beta reference. Ditto RRR. K & P holds 35 um, "and 'yes will catch 5 um as well' sort of like you should be ashamed to ask. Well I'm not and I do ask. I bough the K & P for many purposes. One of which was making space for a sandwich plate. Another was lower backpressure, quicker pressure rise. I like the idea that 35 um is a true absolute and not a relative value with a lot of if's, maybe's and but's attached. I can bypass finer so am unconcerned with it's low end performance. Who has my attention is AMSOIL. 2 um at a Beta of 75. They are willing to state a number and a reference point and even if that number were 5 um I would know the facts and not just some relative marketing speak. Truth not to my exact liking is preferred to lies and pie in the sky. And as it happens I find 2 um at this reference agreeable. I have our resident AMSOIL guy on it.

87,930 Miles Installed K&P Engineering filter. Now talking with FRANZ for a bypass system. Continuing to add to my library I've added NEW oil analysis and some more physicals. Old sheets will be deleted from this thread. Did you know that water at basically room temperature has a viscosity of 1 cSt? Look at light oil HSTS values and shiver. Note oil viscosity at -31 F. More viscous by a factor of 700 than at 100 C (212F) This is SAE zero weight spec! Any more questions as to why 0W* gets better mileage than 5W* ? It isn't what comes after the W that matters.

There was metal in it when it was first machined too, right? They cleaned it out. The filter will catch the fine stuff same as it did when you bought it new. Inhale, exhale. I feel for you. My guts go inside out when something like this happens. Honda put a reman short block in my Honda at 63,000 miles for a casting flaw that dumped coolant into the pan. I wanted an entire motor. Has 225,000 trouble free miles on it.....runs like a sewing machine. Take heart...

Yes, this has nothing to do with the Terrain but it's funny. It's Sugar Bear at her ever loving best and I'm not opening 'Yes Dear'. She has a 2014 Verano. Mint. Trailer Queen. Garage kept and under fifteen thousand miles and most of those by the previous owner. She's had it three years and it's been on two trips and a couple of weekenders. Mostly it sits all winter and goes in and out of the garage for cleanings a few times during the summer and a hour drive once a month to keep it limber. Stage set? Good. So, it's five years old and time for the fiver year services which I always add to. Pull calipers and grease slides, full four wheel power bleed. Full trans service. Engine lube service. Battery load test. Coolant dump and flush, tires, wipers, brake line inspect, evap. system draw down test. Code check...get the idea? This car still smells like new inside...Yum! Bill comes to $400 after about $200 in free stuff they did just because it might need or this wasn't perfect....I hand the bill to the Bear and after her eyes re-dilate she says totally dead pan handing it back in walk away fashion: "Good thing there wasn't anything wrong with it"! Wait till she gets it back from the detailer!

Next project is oil filtration. The below link will do the explanation. This one is K&P Engineering not Scotts. I went with the original after bludgeoning the poor fellow at the other end of the customer service line to tears until I was assured that I was giving up nothing meaningful. The I ran across this link and then felt bad for the guy I beat up. Maybe..... https://xladv.com/articles/what39s-the-real-difference-between-paper-and-stainless-steel-oil-filters-r59/?pagecommentundefined=1 PF63E along side for size reference. This one will actually flows about 7 times more fluid which means lower back pressure and almost non existent bypass situations even at -25F and even though it has a 4 psi blow off. PF63E has a 22 psi relief and uses it. Pump flows with the pump flows. It's positive displacement. It might even buy me enough space for a sandwich plate for a cooler or bypass filtration system. One step at a time. Several finishes are available from K&P. I chose anodized. Bought a second screen and a lifetime supply of gaskets. Here is what I really know. The absolute single pass size. 35 um ABSOULUTE single pass rating. Something you can't pry out of the other manufactures. WIX adverts 21 nominal with a 50% rating at 6 micron and a 95% capture at 20 micron. They 'say' a 21 micron absolute number (multi-pass) but...as you will find in the link there is absolute and then there is ABSOLUTE. When I tire of the lies and deceit I move on...this is me moving on. There is a reason for this I may or may not state sometime in the future. I'm in research mode for now.

6L80E Thermostat Delete 55 mph Fluid Temperature Data Update (last 1/9/2019)

EG Antifreeze Notes: So here is some weirdness. Playing with the thermostat I managed to dilute the mix to -18 F. (42/58) The data I’ve been collecting on trans temperatures took a 3-4* F swing up when I adjusted the coolant back to -34.2 F (50/50 mix). Of course this gets my attention. Normally I think in terms of freeze protection for coolant but it has an impact on thermal capacity as well; along with burst protection and additive concentrations. The window is large. Minimum additive concentration according to Dow comes at a 30% glycol to 70% water mix but gives maximum thermal capacity based on concentration but thermal capacity is also affected by the solutions temperature as well. (Engineers Tool Box) Oddly the hotter the fluid the better it conducts heat. Who knew, right? Maximum freeze protection comes at a 65/35 mix and -62 F. Adding more EG to the system and the freezing point starts to climb again. However the boil over protection keeps rising all the way to 100% EG. The freeze point is also raised to 8.78 F at 100% EG. I guess if you live some place the temperature falls below -62 F you charge the system with Propylene Glycol. Burst protection. Takes about half the concentration of EG to protect for burst to the same freeze point so it should never be an issue. Caveat is when your freeze protection is exceeded. The coolant turns to slush. Slush kills water pumps and doesn’t conduct or flow well. Yea, you can overheat a motor at -35 F air temperature if the system is protected only to -18 F. Good day to let her sit and I did during those -35 F days we had in February. Some friends of mine didn't fair as well. How I got in trouble or could have. 50/50 mix isn’t 50/50. It’s 50% water, 47% EG and 3% additives. Did you know that? I didn't. It’s what I had been using for makeup coolant and a pint of RO water once. Cooled real good. Too good actually. Makes the thermostat cycle in low temperature situations. Anyway, thought to share….

For the stock housing, No. For the IPSCO? Yes. ACDelco 14077122 for 190 F Summit Racing carries them.

Ah, my bad...I totally misunderstood. No I chose Red Line (to date) because of: 1.) the feed back it gives me based on measurement. Runs cooler. Rapid pressure rise. UOA's and sometimes the 'feel' of the vehicle when you use it. For example I had a 98 Honda HX with a five speed manual. Getting that thing in low gear anything above a crawl was impossible. Red Line MTL contains a friction modifier that slows the sync rings that allows engagement at any speed you feel comfortable with. Example two. Red Line Shock Proof Heavy in a Harley twin cam gear box removes the 'clunk', smooths the shifts to Asian quality and keeps the temperature in check. 2.) It's polarity. POE's are highly polar. In a polarity comparison from worst to best it goes PAO - Mineral Oil - POE - PAG. Blending can be a situation where the total is greater than the sum of it's parts. Synergy at work. Now allot of Synthetic Oils claim POE content and some is actually needed for other reasons beyond polarity but Red Line is the only oil where I know the concentration and it is considerable. Some of the others that lay that claim can be as low as 3%. Enough to do the 'other job' but not enough to assist in what matters. I made a comment once that film strength is tied to viscosity ONLY within a type. Example. Two oils both with a 9.0 100 C viscosity. AT 100 C the film strength of the POE is higher than that of the mineral oil no matter how much processing it goes under. How much more? About the equivalent of one SAE viscosity grade. No one is going to tell you that a POE 20 W can be run anywhere a 30W is called for. But some will tell you that the film strength of a 20W POE is about the same as the 30W AT the same viscosity. That last item is important and why I try to keep things reasonable cool. 3.) Yes, a low NOACK and a High HSTS don't hurt either.

ACDelco Red Line QSUD Rotella Super Syn MPT-30K AMSOIL Vis 40 C 61.2 71 66.65 66.4 63.15 73.2 59.7 Vis 100 C 10.4 11.9 11.6 11.7 11.2 11.8 10.7 VI 160 166 170 175 158 162 Higher is better HTHS 3.7 3.9 3.11 Higher is better NOACK 6% <13% 5.4% 6.7% Lower is better ACDelco is an Exxon/Mobil product based on Mobil 1 5W30. That the case then ACDelco is a Group III hydrocracked oil just like Quaker State. Polarity would by default be middle of the road. I can find no information of Rotellas base oil. ACDelco is better than I imagined it would be. Red Line is a PAO/POE blend. PAO is very non-polar thus a pretty high percentage of POE is added to improve polarity which improves wetting. Enough to be more polar than mineral oil. I actually know the percentage but am not at liberty to say. Let's just say I still know some people in refining at Phillips. Tossed SuperSyn, AMSOIL and MPT-30K in for kicks. I don't know what this information will tell you but it's what I could find. 0W20 Synlube Red Line QSUD AMSOIL 40 C vis 40.8 48 44.61 47.1 100 C vis 9.0 9.1 8.3 8.8 VI 210 172 165 169 HTHS 2.7 2.9 2.67 NOACK 9 8.5

So you want the kinematic viscosity, viscosity index and HSHT for this list of oils? In other words the physicals that are on the "Product sheets" and you want me to look them up for you? I mean I will if you can't for some reason. Just say. If you need help you will have to point me towards this 'new' ACDelco oil. There was a tread on this site about lifter collapse from GM I believe in a video. I just can't remember where. The switch is suppose to happen on the base circle of the cam. In milliseconds the oil goes from zero psi to anything over 22 psi. If the pressure is slow to build or absent when the lifter is trying to lock in it is delays to the ramp. The jolt is what damages the pins and the lands they lock into. It is really important to keep the VLOM primary screen beneath the pressure switch clean and assure ample oil pressure above 1,000 rpm. 22 psi min hot.

Not worried about it not activating. Worried that low pressure will mistime the event and destroy the lifter/cam. Low pressure mistimed switching is was kills the valvetrain. Delco 5W30 for first 1300 miles then Mobil 1 5W30 to 9,200 miles then QSUD 5W20 to 30,252 miles then, plot temp profile Mobil 1 5W20 for on change to plot temp profile to 35,000 miles then Red Line 5W20 to 65,000 miles then plot temp profile Red Line 0W20 to present. At 50,000 Switched to Red Line D6 in the trans and Red Line 75W90 in the diff. Just before 60,000 miles trans thermostat delete. Between 25 and 30K JET 180 F Stat Between 35 and 40 K JET stat fails, Return to OEM 207 F modified Just before 45K Installed JET 170 F stat. Between 65 and 70 K Jet 170 fails and I park it. Install Stant 180F in IPSCO adaptor. In this thread I show the temp profiles and in other post show my UOA's and Blackstone Universal Averages. Data is driving me toward an end. I study something awhile, decide, hypothesize and test. Rinse and repeat. My mantra is improved fuel economy can only happen if lower friction is obtained with AFR tables and timing held a constant. Lower friction is lower wear rates. To date my in house methods have me using Red Line 0W20 and employing colder operating parameters to that end. Honestly I'm at a boarder line presently with oil pressure vs oil temperature. As a general rule it takes a reduction of 20* F in the sump to step down one SAE grade but the step from W30 to W20 needs about 30 F. I could run a colder stat and reach that but that triggers some 'not warmed up; fuel mapping that runs her richer by a tad. Enough to notice but not enough to worry me. I actually have two other oils I'm investigating myself. Syn4life and MPT 30K. Dyson turned me toward the second. Just reading right now. That second one is allot like Red Line in composition. Currently as in today I ordered a K & P Engineering surgical stainless 'forever' oil filter. You clean it instead of replace it. Two draws to this product. It has an 100% efficiency of an absolute 35 micro pass. About 5 micron better than the best paper filters. It has 1/7th the flow restriction which means the pump uses 1/7 the power to push the same amount of oil which means less pumping energy heating the oil. The nail is it's quarter turn unlock construction that never leaves the base attached to the motor while the guts spill on the floor. Because it offers so little restriction the relief setting is only 4 psi. It offers less backpressure at 90% plugged than a paper or cellulose filter does new. Quicker wetting and pressure build. Don't know if that is exactly what you wanted but....if not PM me with specifics and I'll dig around in my notes for answers.

Another hens' tooth pulled. Low oil pressure warning lamp comes in at 8 PSI. How that is a good idea in a system that requires a minimum of 22 psi to activate the AFM is beyond comprehension. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Hot oil pressure minimums. 22 psi @ 1,000 rpm 30 psi @ 2,000 rpm 33 psi @ 3,000 rpm LV1, LV3, L83, L86 and L96. It's a start. Everything is like pulling hen's teeth. Thanks Mike! Newer fella chimed in.

Were builders using catch cans on carbureted motors? Not really. This whole thing rest on the idea that detergents in gasoline stop inlet valve deposits. Cars have had PCV systems that feed back to the inlet for a very long time. In that time there have been plenty wet runner motors torn down with inlets plugged to the point of throttling the motor. And yet most did not. In those wet runner motors the usual culprit was excessive inlet valve seal leakage. So is it the fact that detergents are not available in a dry runner motor OR excessive amounts of oil in the inlet runner are present. It's a question worth the ask. For one, a catch can is a cure for the other it's a band-aid on a GSW. Under what conditions, operational or mechanical, is there enough oil in the inlet system to plug an inlet to the point of air deprivation? How did cups of oil trapped in a can get to be 'normal'? What is getting missed it the 'degree' of oil intrusion. Motors with bad rings that use measurable and excessive amounts of oil suffer the type of blow by that pushes PCV systems to the brink. Well sealed rings under normal loads display very little vapor traffic in a multi-cylinder motor. It takes traffic at a high enough velocity to carry oil mist anywhere. The 14 and newer motors have incredible amounts of cover baffling and mist separation built into them. 3X as much as pre 2014 motors. That said if you have enough oil to trap and show by the cup the yes, use a can...BUT why is there that much to begin with?

March 2019 numbers are in: 2017 26.24 mpg 2018 25.45 mpg 2019 27.01 mpg Since June 2018 the numbers have been "off the hook". Several things happened near that time. The JET 170 F thermostat failed and was replaced with the Stant 180 F in the IPSCO remote housing. Change of both oil grade and type from QSUD 5W20 to Red Line 0W20. And lastly multiple trans drop and fills with Red Line D6 along with thermostat delete. Diff has been Red Line 75W90 since about 50 K. Looking over all data and breaking out various periods and their listed modifications..... Getting fluids up to heat quicker has been HUGE. Lower cold temperature viscosity is HUGE. Actually peak tank numbers are only marginally higher. About 1 mpg but the frequency and easy of nailing a 30 mpg tank in warm weather has gone from a struggle to a given. Winter warmup rates are quick, predictable and repeatable. Nailing the water temp was more of a happenstance than a plan but I'll take it. Not much low hanging fruit left. Quicker warmup utilizing tank pre-heaters. Refinement of antifreeze percentages. Warmer trans stat with a minimum flow bypass. Tires. Improvement in oil flow rates. These things are heading the list. In other words I don't see the peak getting higher. I see the area under the curve getting fuller. This means the gear project is canceled...for now. Won't get back on the list until I can get some straight answers about the oiling system.

Ah...well...it's metric but Mark knew the closest SAE size and it works well. I can't remember. Great find on the T stat. 170's are rare this side of down under. I see it already has the pilot hole too.

Next page for UOA information. Newer updates added.

Updated table further down page. I want this right.