Non-Lux/Bose Navi. Into 2001???

vodapas · November 9, 2005

Ok,

Color me perplexed. I have been looking into what I wanted to do with my stereo/I.C.E./system or whatever you want to call it in my 2001 Silverado.

Now, I realize there are a lot of great after-market options. However, for me there are three big factors. One, I have never liked the look of single DIN units put into DIN and 1/2 openings and no one sells an in-dash DVD player that is DIN and 1/2. Two, as you might have seen in one of my other posts I am going to be doing an Escalade conversion both to the front and interior of my truck. Third with the dash lighting being white after-market head units look out of place at night.

So, I was looking around on ebay and found several GM Delphi navigation units (new in-box) for the same price a good after-market unit would cost. So, I thought I had found my answer. Factory look, has all the features I want and even has functional Navi. Bonus!

Uh, not quite. From what I have gathered from sellers and in this forum this is not gonna be plug and play for a 2001. But hey, I love a little challenge. Only thing is I need some help clearing up the truth from the BS.

Questions: Is this even a feasible idea? One seller told me the Navi. has to interface with the truck's ECU and only the 2003+ ECU has the necessary interface. I'm no expert, but to me it seems all the Navi. needs to know is the location (provided by the GPS antenna), the speed (already have the input for my speed sensing volume control), and the map (comes on the DVD). Am I wrong here? Some factor I'm missing? Number crunching in the ECU maybe?

Another seller says it's the dash opening I have to worry about and the dash has to be modified. I thought there was no difference in the dash design, but I realize the opening on the 2003+ does look larger. So, I can see this as a speed bump, but a minor one. Friend works at a body shop other friend does stereo installs... I'm thinking we can work around this.

Then I came on here. Man, there is a lot of different stereo numbers and options. My truck has the UQ3 (enhanced audio) code on the SPID. So, that gives me the input from the speed sensor and if I'm not mistaken internal amplification in the head unit itself. So, I was thinking the TNR, I believe, Delphi Navi. unit for the non-lux, non-Bose vehicles would be the one for me as it has internal amplification also. But, I read that many people who tried to go plug and play with it had all kinds of problems with the sound levels making me believe the internal amplification levels were wrong for the GM full size truck (I believe the TNR was for the Rendevous or Bravada)? Then there's the whole door chime interface that the 2003+ seem to have tied into the stereo while the 99-02 weren't?

Ok, so that's all the info. I can think of. I would really appreciate it if anyone with experience with the GM factory Nav systems could help me out here. I always thought factory systems were the easy thing to deal with in car stereo. GM has definitely proven me wrong. I really appreciate it. Obviously, I won't be making any purchases until I here from some forum members with more knowledge than me. lol.

Lang

'05_Z71 · November 10, 2005

Questions: Is this even a feasible idea? One seller told me the Navi. has to interface with the truck's ECU and only the 2003+ ECU has the necessary interface. I'm no expert, but to me it seems all the Navi. needs to know is the location (provided by the GPS antenna), the speed (already have the input for my speed sensing volume control), and the map (comes on the DVD). Am I wrong here? Some factor I'm missing? Number crunching in the ECU maybe?

Answer: The 2003+ Navi radios use GMLAN so the radio is talking to the rest of the car. The radio controls your chime and the radio itself needs certain signals from the car to stay alive. That is the jist of my software/systems interface knowledge.

Another seller says it's the dash opening I have to worry about and the dash has to be modified. I thought there was no difference in the dash design, but I realize the opening on the 2003+ does look larger. So, I can see this as a speed bump, but a minor one. Friend works at a body shop other friend does stereo installs... I'm thinking we can work around this.

Answer: The Navi radio faceplate is bigger...it's a full double DIN. You need a larger IP trim opening and the mounting points, such as the rear radio bullet, may be indifferent locations thus impacting the inner structure of the IP.

Then I came on here. Man, there is a lot of different stereo numbers and options. My truck has the UQ3 (enhanced audio) code on the SPID. So, that gives me the input from the speed sensor and if I'm not mistaken internal amplification in the head unit itself. So, I was thinking the TNR, I believe, Delphi Navi. unit for the non-lux, non-Bose vehicles would be the one for me as it has internal amplification also. But, I read that many people who tried to go plug and play with it had all kinds of problems with the sound levels making me believe the internal amplification levels were wrong for the GM full size truck (I believe the TNR was for the Rendevous or Bravada)? Then there's the whole door chime interface that the 2003+ seem to have tied into the stereo while the 99-02 weren't?

Answer: The TNR is NOT an internally amplified radio by design. Yes, it has an internal amp, but it needs an external amp to work properly. No software available to the public will overcome this. The TNR works with no problem in externally amplified trucks...I retrofitted one last month. TNR mostly saw duty in Rendezvous, and the big SUV's as that was what the INR (the one with the joystick) was originally developed for. The other SUV's got the TNR later.

So could it be done? With enough money and effort sure. But I was in the navigation group at Delphi and no one with a truck older than 2003 bothered retrofitting if that tells you anything.

vodapas · November 10, 2005

Thanks for clearing all that up. It definitely seems that I have a lot to learn about the GM fullsize trucks. I am actually quite impressed at how much interior redesign GM did for 2003. Going to a full double DIN is alone a great improvement IMO.

So, guess I'll be going with the Pioneer AVIC or some such animal. But I'm definitely still going to add a 2003+ console to my truck. that I think I can accomplish. lol.

Once again thanks for your help.

Lang

holstbnet · November 10, 2005

I'd like to throw my two cents in.

The GMT800 trucks and SUVs that use the Delphi touch screen navigation, or earlier joystick navigation systems are NOT GMLAN. They talk on the Class 2 databus, which has been in place since at least 1996 but used extensively since 1999.

Basically, GMs older style 1.5 DIN radios like in your 2001 used a different network to talk to other radio components called E&C bus (Entertainment and Comfort). They did not communicate with the trucks Body Control Module or anything like that, only with rear seat audio, remote cd/tape, OnStar, etc.

Starting in 2000 model year, GM began phasing out the 1.5 DIN Delco Electronics radios in favor of a new Delphi double-DIN head unit. These new radios required dash modifications due to size changes, and also communicate with the vehicles Body Control Module on the Class 2 network. They do NOT communicate with the vehicles PCM (or ECM, or ECU, whatever you want to call it) PERIOD. The idea behind this Class 2 thing was two-fold:

1) New theftlock system... turn vehicle on, BCM wakes up the radio and queries it for the VIN stored in it. If it matches what the BCM has, the radio turns on. If it doesn't match, it locks the radio.

2) Everything else in the vehicle is on Class 2. The gauge cluster, hvac, door modules, BCM, PCM, OnStar, XM, RSE, RSA.. etc. One happy network, they can all communicate and work with each other. It also limits wiring complexities. For example... a non-class 2 gauge cluster needs a direct wire for every gauge. One for volts, one for fuel, one for oil pressure, etc. A class 2 (or common network) gauge cluster just needs ONE wire for a data stream, and the cluster gets its information from that. (well, thats a simplified view, anyways)

Soo... who got these new radios when???

Cavalier, Sunfire, Monte Carlo and Impala were FIRST to get the new double-DIN Delphi radios on a class 2 network in 2000. Then the Olds Alero in 2001, Pontiac Grand Am in 2002, S-10/Blazer/Sonoma/Jimmy in LATE 2002, and then the full size Chevy/GMC/Cadillac trucks and SUVs in 2003. (just to name a FEW)

So does that mean your truck doesnt have a Class 2 network? Only the 03+ trucks?

Noooo.. Your truck DOES have a Class 2 network. Your trucks BCM is the center of this network, and your various controllers talk on this network -- just not your radio.

What's involved in the upgrade to a new radio like this in your 2001? Is it possible?

ANYTHING is possible...

For starters... the dash situation. You DON'T need to swap your whole dash, just the fiberglass "bucket" that the radio and hvac controls attach to. It's a separate part from your whole dash assembly. Then you'll also need a 2003+ dash bezel/trim plate that has a larger opening.

Secondly... the radio plug is wrong. You have a 21-pin connector (old style) that's 4 pieces that snap together. The new connector is a larger square 24-pin connector. So you'd need to wire that in. One new wire is introduced there.. the Class 2 wire. This runs directly to a splice pack or your BCM.

So you know you could physically install the radio AND plug it in...

The SINGLE unknown issue here...

Will your BCM be able to tell the radio to "wake up" and support the VIN query? Or does it just lock and not function?

If your BCM doesn't support the radio (which NO ONE can answer definitely so far) then your only other hope is to upgrade BCMs to a 2003+ but that can be a mess. A big mess.

A friend of mine owns a 2002 GMC Sierra Denali. It has the old radio, obviously. In the next couple weeks, we are going to test wire a new style radio in that already has the VIN cleared and see if it will power up. If it DOES work, this is huge. It means that anyone with a 1999+ GM truck will be able to upgrade to the new style radio.

Details to come.

vodapas · November 10, 2005

Wow! That's a lot of good info. Very educational reading. I look forward to hearing about the results of your project on your friends 99.

Oh, and not to veer to far off my own topic, but when I hopped in my truck a few minutes ago I thought of this. Along the lines of updating the interior. Does anyone know if it would be possible to swap out the old headlight controls for the newer model's? Basically I would prefer to have the switch where the auto-on headlights is an option you can set via the switch rather than the deisgn I have where I have to hit the "Dome-Override" button four times to trun off the auto-on everytime I start the truck. just curious since I found a newer switch on ebey for not too much.

Thanks.

'05_Z71 · November 10, 2005

I'd like to throw my two cents in.

The GMT800 trucks and SUVs that use the Delphi touch screen navigation, or earlier joystick navigation systems are NOT GMLAN. They talk on the Class 2 databus, which has been in place since at least 1996 but used extensively since 1999.

Basically, GMs older style 1.5 DIN radios like in your 2001 used a different network to talk to other radio components called E&C bus (Entertainment and Comfort). They did not communicate with the trucks Body Control Module or anything like that, only with rear seat audio, remote cd/tape, OnStar, etc.

Starting in 2000 model year, GM began phasing out the 1.5 DIN Delco Electronics radios in favor of a new Delphi double-DIN head unit. These new radios required dash modifications due to size changes, and also communicate with the vehicles Body Control Module on the Class 2 network. They do NOT communicate with the vehicles PCM (or ECM, or ECU, whatever you want to call it) PERIOD. The idea behind this Class 2 thing was two-fold:

1) New theftlock system... turn vehicle on, BCM wakes up the radio and queries it for the VIN stored in it. If it matches what the BCM has, the radio turns on. If it doesn't match, it locks the radio.

2) Everything else in the vehicle is on Class 2. The gauge cluster, hvac, door modules, BCM, PCM, OnStar, XM, RSE, RSA.. etc. One happy network, they can all communicate and work with each other. It also limits wiring complexities. For example... a non-class 2 gauge cluster needs a direct wire for every gauge. One for volts, one for fuel, one for oil pressure, etc. A class 2 (or common network) gauge cluster just needs ONE wire for a data stream, and the cluster gets its information from that. (well, thats a simplified view, anyways)

Huh, we got keep alive boxes at work labeled GMLAN that we plug the radios into so I'll have to see why they are named that way.

holstbnet · November 10, 2005

Huh, we got keep alive boxes at work labeled GMLAN that we plug the radios into so I'll have to see why they are named that way.

GMLAN (also called CAN, controller area network) is eventually going to be the replacement for Class 2 and started rolling out for the 2004 model year in only a handful of vehicles including the Cadillac XLR. I believe the Colorado and Canyon and the Malibu also use GMLAN, but not for the radio and some other things. (A hybrid system)

If you have a box to plug into for radio testing, they are improperly labeled GMLAN because the vast majority of Delphi and Denso radios out there do not communicate on that network.

'05_Z71 · November 11, 2005

Huh, we got keep alive boxes at work labeled GMLAN that we plug the radios into so I'll have to see why they are named that way.

GMLAN (also called CAN, controller area network) is eventually going to be the replacement for Class 2 and started rolling out for the 2004 model year in only a handful of vehicles including the Cadillac XLR. I believe the Colorado and Canyon and the Malibu also use GMLAN, but not for the radio and some other things. (A hybrid system)

If you have a box to plug into for radio testing, they are improperly labeled GMLAN because the vast majority of Delphi and Denso radios out there do not communicate on that network.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't go so far to say that the boxes are labeled improperly. From what I've been able to learn some network traffic is being communicated. Given this comes from the guys that develop software, I'm going to believe them.

holstbnet · November 11, 2005

I'm confused... let me explain.

Class 2 is what the vast majority of GM vehicles have been using for a "network" - but they also used E&C bus and UART, depending on the model. Then they pretty much phased out the latter two, leaving only Class 2.

GMLAN did NOT start rolling out until 2004 and it was only on a few models. It WILL be the new sole "network" for GM vehicles, with both a high-speed bus (for ECM, ABS and other vital systems) and a low-speed bus (for radio, DIC, door modules, hvac, cluster, etc)

I suppose you could call a previous network "GMLAN" because it -IS- a network on a GM car... but it would confuse a lot of people.

camaudio · November 11, 2005

I'd like to throw my two cents in.

The GMT800 trucks and SUVs that use the Delphi touch screen navigation, or earlier joystick navigation systems are NOT GMLAN. They talk on the Class 2 databus, which has been in place since at least 1996 but used extensively since 1999.

Basically, GMs older style 1.5 DIN radios like in your 2001 used a different network to talk to other radio components called E&C bus (Entertainment and Comfort). They did not communicate with the trucks Body Control Module or anything like that, only with rear seat audio, remote cd/tape, OnStar, etc.

Starting in 2000 model year, GM began phasing out the 1.5 DIN Delco Electronics radios in favor of a new Delphi double-DIN head unit. These new radios required dash modifications due to size changes, and also communicate with the vehicles Body Control Module on the Class 2 network. They do NOT communicate with the vehicles PCM (or ECM, or ECU, whatever you want to call it) PERIOD. The idea behind this Class 2 thing was two-fold:

1) New theftlock system... turn vehicle on, BCM wakes up the radio and queries it for the VIN stored in it. If it matches what the BCM has, the radio turns on. If it doesn't match, it locks the radio.

2) Everything else in the vehicle is on Class 2. The gauge cluster, hvac, door modules, BCM, PCM, OnStar, XM, RSE, RSA.. etc. One happy network, they can all communicate and work with each other. It also limits wiring complexities. For example... a non-class 2 gauge cluster needs a direct wire for every gauge. One for volts, one for fuel, one for oil pressure, etc. A class 2 (or common network) gauge cluster just needs ONE wire for a data stream, and the cluster gets its information from that. (well, thats a simplified view, anyways)

Huh, we got keep alive boxes at work labeled GMLAN that we plug the radios into so I'll have to see why they are named that way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where do you work?

gltech · July 10, 2006

I'd like to throw my two cents in.

The GMT800 trucks and SUVs that use the Delphi touch screen navigation, or earlier joystick navigation systems are NOT GMLAN. They talk on the Class 2 databus, which has been in place since at least 1996 but used extensively since 1999.

Basically, GMs older style 1.5 DIN radios like in your 2001 used a different network to talk to other radio components called E&C bus (Entertainment and Comfort). They did not communicate with the trucks Body Control Module or anything like that, only with rear seat audio, remote cd/tape, OnStar, etc.

Starting in 2000 model year, GM began phasing out the 1.5 DIN Delco Electronics radios in favor of a new Delphi double-DIN head unit. These new radios required dash modifications due to size changes, and also communicate with the vehicles Body Control Module on the Class 2 network. They do NOT communicate with the vehicles PCM (or ECM, or ECU, whatever you want to call it) PERIOD. The idea behind this Class 2 thing was two-fold:

1) New theftlock system... turn vehicle on, BCM wakes up the radio and queries it for the VIN stored in it. If it matches what the BCM has, the radio turns on. If it doesn't match, it locks the radio.

2) Everything else in the vehicle is on Class 2. The gauge cluster, hvac, door modules, BCM, PCM, OnStar, XM, RSE, RSA.. etc. One happy network, they can all communicate and work with each other. It also limits wiring complexities. For example... a non-class 2 gauge cluster needs a direct wire for every gauge. One for volts, one for fuel, one for oil pressure, etc. A class 2 (or common network) gauge cluster just needs ONE wire for a data stream, and the cluster gets its information from that. (well, thats a simplified view, anyways)

Soo... who got these new radios when???

Cavalier, Sunfire, Monte Carlo and Impala were FIRST to get the new double-DIN Delphi radios on a class 2 network in 2000. Then the Olds Alero in 2001, Pontiac Grand Am in 2002, S-10/Blazer/Sonoma/Jimmy in LATE 2002, and then the full size Chevy/GMC/Cadillac trucks and SUVs in 2003. (just to name a FEW)

So does that mean your truck doesnt have a Class 2 network? Only the 03+ trucks?

Noooo.. Your truck DOES have a Class 2 network. Your trucks BCM is the center of this network, and your various controllers talk on this network -- just not your radio.

What's involved in the upgrade to a new radio like this in your 2001? Is it possible?

ANYTHING is possible...

For starters... the dash situation. You DON'T need to swap your whole dash, just the fiberglass "bucket" that the radio and hvac controls attach to. It's a separate part from your whole dash assembly. Then you'll also need a 2003+ dash bezel/trim plate that has a larger opening.

Secondly... the radio plug is wrong. You have a 21-pin connector (old style) that's 4 pieces that snap together. The new connector is a larger square 24-pin connector. So you'd need to wire that in. One new wire is introduced there.. the Class 2 wire. This runs directly to a splice pack or your BCM.

So you know you could physically install the radio AND plug it in...

The SINGLE unknown issue here...

Will your BCM be able to tell the radio to "wake up" and support the VIN query? Or does it just lock and not function?

If your BCM doesn't support the radio (which NO ONE can answer definitely so far) then your only other hope is to upgrade BCMs to a 2003+ but that can be a mess. A big mess.

A friend of mine owns a 2002 GMC Sierra Denali. It has the old radio, obviously. In the next couple weeks, we are going to test wire a new style radio in that already has the VIN cleared and see if it will power up. If it DOES work, this is huge. It means that anyone with a 1999+ GM truck will be able to upgrade to the new style radio.

Details to come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>