Grumpy Bear

I would love to see the oil and trans fluid temperatures running like that. MPG would be the last of my worries.

At what point will the old guys accept that their world has changed? Minds become inflexible with age, so there is that.... When the one I live in fails. And it has not. A post I made in another forum I am part of. Different make. Same result from the same program: This motor has an EPA MPG value of 42 mpg. A OEM 0W20 requirement for the North American market. *********************** Rolling the first tank after the thermostat change and during a stringer of really hot humid days. Those where AC is not optional if staying married is a goal. I wanted hot but humid I can do without. That said...with the AC running and speeds of 50 to 55 mph 52 mpg is falling off a log easy. Add three to 2 or 3 more if the AC is off. This is that pennies equals dollars thing I'm talking about. Running 5W40 oil that is slicker than deer guts on a brass doorknob. Heavier Non-Slip POA CTV fluid that runs cooler. Colder water temperatures. Running Ruthenium plugs. Running 45 psi cold tire pressure. Killer alignment. Thanks Dan at Belle Tire and a good set of camber bolts. Trained by a Scan Gauge III system to drive. Will roll over 50 mpg at 60 mph with the AC on. I haven't any interest in driving any faster than 100 KPH. What am I doing wrong? Well I've undone pretty much everything the OEM tried to do to improve efficiency and failed at because? Because a theoretical reduction in a fluids internal friction is more than offset by NOT dragging the piston skirts across concrete, which is what a skirt scuffing a cylinder wall is like. Look at the aluminum wear metal reports of consecutive samples from this motor. ZERO! Physics is not interested in your generational That was easy.

Well said. I've done 300K a few times and 200K isn't that hard with decent maintenance. Not even stellar, just decent. But your first line nails it. I get in Pepper and check the gas gauge, turn the key an go where ever without a thought. Across town or access country. Dizzy on the other hand is now about 278K or so and been an absolute nightmare to get it there and has been since it stuck its first ring at 80K. I put in the key and hope the 25 miles to town is going to be okay. I even leave the dog at home in bad weather so he won't have to walk. But hey, it starts, it goes down the road and we get there so...success? Not really. So yea, miles are nothing. Shape is something. I spent near the cost of the vehicle on maintenance to get Dizzy to 200K. I've spent $20 on Pepper. But yea, it's the same. Why I asked him about what success looks like. He knew what I was asking. He earned his Ignore button. **************************** Comments not attached to the quoted post. You guys know I've seen family million mile GAS motors that lived on period oils and were as clean as Pepper inside and you also know that those motors NEVER accumulated more than 1,500 on a oil change and the target was 1,000 miles. The Flathead was 500 mile OCI's and made that mark without a rebuild and still didn't smoke. You can do it on DEXOS just not at 7.5K plug OCI's. Not even 3K will be that clean by 200K but vastly better. What I'm looking for is diesel like miles and reliability from a gas motor in a modern machine. I don't even know if it is possible but what I do know is that 300K isn't that. Triple that number. People have such low expectations for things that cost more than my first few houses. Creating the experience burning my house down does not interest me. I might be too old to even get the next one to 300K but I do think I've got a good start with Pepper and gave enough receipts to say the program IS working and on solid footing. That's PROVEN. Look, I don't get upset when someone's bar is so low a pig on roller skates getting over a snakes belly in a wagon rut at the bottom of Death Valley is still a higher bar. His business, his machine, his wallet. I don't need them to be 'impressed'. What burns my bacon are those that don't want anyone else to have any opinion but theirs. All they want is to hear their voice coming out of your mouth or worse, for you to remain silent so they don't have to listen. They don't. Change the channel. Don't want anyone to know it is possible, practical and affordable. I just don't understand that kind of hate. Have a different opinion. Debate the value of your opinion. That's welcome. Peeing on another's is not. Being hateful is not. If you don't know the difference then sit at the kids table.

Then let me tune you up; you simply do not understand the roll clean has on motor life. GM does. Enough so that DEXOS has it's own standard that is tighter than the API. GM and all other manufactures have such standards. Because? Besides the fact those deposits hinder cooling? STUCK RINGS. Oil control. Plugs hydraulic ports for the AFM/VVT and oil pump circuits. Vacuum pump circuit that is your power brakes if you don't have electric brakes. It was and has been the first go to for GM every time there is a deposit related issue. What is the first step? Lower the OCI, Why? Prevent deposits they KNOW FOR CERTIAN will be there because? There license ALLOWS IT. Mine does not. Mine is ZERO. I'm still using the OEM brake pump many others has replaced on recall. Did have the ABS calibrations done that are suppose to catch it when it fails either. Why were they failing? Tight screen in the inlets was PLUGGING WITH DEPOSITS. Varnished over not sludge. Ditto many a VLOM failure. That statement "NOBODY' is simple not true. GM cares allot. Add every major car manufacture in the world. Add all top tear blenders. I care allot and it is significant. Enough to point out with "receipts' (photos) It is proof that the program does what DEXOS combine with the OEM OLM recommendations is failing at. It's proof you don't have to live with that situation and it's a guide for others that care. You are not the world un to itself you think you are. What you mean to say is, "I don't care". Great! But is it necessary to pee in everyone's cereal because you see no value in it? Again, such actions are petty and small.

Yes Teacher Learned a new lesson recently I'd hoped never to learn. I had the misfortune of catching a stone in the radiator of Raven, our 2024 Mitsubishi Mirage. That in itself was sad but it happens. No, it was the repair that educated me. I bought this car 75 miles away. There is a closer dealer but neither has shown competence. That as well is unremarkable. Sad and yet. No, the first jaw dropper was that the cost of the Mitsubishi sourced Denso OEM radiator was $800! Something I sourced from Rock Auto for $125 after shipping. Under a hundred. WOW! Tiny car that I haven't any experience with so I go to the Internet to find some video and a shop manual to see what the job looks like and where the landmines are. Thankfully I watched the videos, not in English, first. Why thankfully you say? The shop manual has you removing just about everything but the power train from the firewall forward and gives a ridiculously long 'shop hours' number. Like more that double the time required even by an old guy with a bad back in scorching weather working a few minutes here and there. At $200 an hour there was baked into the job a grand in labor cost. We haven't counted the 'extraneous supplies and towing cost yet'. Yet well north of $2,000 USD and more than six months waiting time. I expected some parts gouging. I was not expecting Mitsubishi to steal legally by abusing the book hours with such an obvious padding that Joe Average would not have even noticed nor is it actionable! That's the lesson. They steal with approval! Just standing in the shadow of the door they sneak around in the law. This isn't unique to Mitsubishi. A quick query of my mechanic friends paints a pretty sad picture of the dealership experience. I did the job myself for an out of pocket cost of just under $150 all in and a pitcher of tea. And I still beat the book. I could do it the second time in half the time now that I've seen and done it. Oh, and the wait was 5 days shipping and the best part????? It was the identical Denso radiator!!

True. Alignment will not 'repair' a set of tires that have taken an uneven wear pattern. Tire cost being an indicator of quality is not a connection one can make clearly. If you meant tire made cheaply then I'd offer this. Even the worst of the worst that can be sold can be made to wear evenly. They just can't do it for long before you run out of thread. To the OP. Get the alignment right first then get new tires.

Happiness, that's the marker for a successful engine program? Oh, I get it. "Not what you asked". Exactly what I asked, context gave the ask, and as usual for those the hate without a true cause you don't have an answer. My call is on the fact you have, have had or ever will have a motor that went the long and is THAT CLEAN. Not that it made it. Lie, deny, delay misdirect. Your not trying to have a conversation. Your interest is in disruption. You don't do and so don't want anyone else to either. That is petty and small. Go back and read @OnTheReel 's last reply. He has markers, data, a direction, a program and it will lead to a conclusion that he can and will adjust to be better the next time every time. PURPOSE DIRECTION toward EXCELENCE. You have what? Allot of "I don't have proof" To the junk drawer with you....

I agree with @newdude on the camber. -.02 max, -0.1 better, equal REQUIRED. Are extended range camber bolts in play? If not then get some. That toe thing they have going on is indefensible. +.02 and EVEN. That will tear up tires. Thrust is pretty darn good. If you tow camber is okay. If you don't then loose some, a full degree, if ride and turn in is important to you.

Failure? That's your bar? Describe what success means to you. Are you one of those people that thinks you can say a thing true? It is because you 'says' it is? Apples, oranges, it's all fruit, right? City dweller and OTR all the same pot of fish. As long as I've been here the goal post is always moving further along. Won't go 80K without using oil. It did. Won't go 100K without a lifter failure. It did. Trans wont make it past warranty. It did. Lifetime is 150K you sure, Yep. TSB on rings says you are on borrowed time. Catch can or die. It didn't. Still waiting for the cam/lifters/rings to fail. Still waiting for it to use oil. In fact I'm still waiting for deposits to form. (168K) Open yours up and lets have a look at success. I replaced that piece of plastic around the starter. That's been my non-routine maintenance.

I'm officially jealous. I can hit those numbers in that temperature, just not at 701 mph. I have work to do.

Somewhere we got the notion that getting away with something was the same as it not being a problem. Like the drunk who drives because he's to drunk to walk and because he never hits anything over a long span of time comes to believe that his behavior is harmless. If rods aren't hanging out, we're good, right?

Again as true as that is what it shows is the truck is not set up for towing. @OnTheReel 's dash would be what it should look like towing as well. *************************************** General comments to attached to the newdude quote: Physics doesn't leave the room when it's towing or on track day. Thermostat doesn't do cooling, it does regulating. If the cooler is WAY to large for day in and day out task the thermostat keeps it warm enough. If the thermostat is defeated by a cooler to small then it needs enough cooler to put it in control. When I first bought Pepper my dash looked like #2 on a hot day doing 55 mph. Not quite that bad but you get the idea. I took steps to get to the OneTheReel dash look and it does quite well up to over 90 F air temps. Even with all the modifications I would need more to tow or run the Mexican deserts. GM gives us a 'starter kit' and a darn poor one at that.

As true as that 'hope' may be, the truth, it isn't. Let's have a look see, eh? Crank can fail if it is of non-spec machining clearances. Crank can fail from non-spec metallurgy. Let's look at the second first and the first last. Metallurgy. Can't fail from being to hard or to smooth in any way viscosity is useful. But it can fail from being to SOFT and if that were true then NO OIL ON EARTH will save it for the next five minutes. Liquids void of gas are INCOMPRESSABLE an as such will take more load than ANY metal can sustain. It's how a hydrodynamic wedge is formed. Hydrodynamic pressure. Kind of in the name. First thing last. Clearance is non-standard. Too tight? Viscosity won't help. Too loose? Now there is can be useful. but only if the bearing clearance is loose AND the side clearance is also loose. Guys put non-Ford rods in flatheads with narrow bearings, thus HUGE side clearances and maintain oil pressure with bearing clearance. Tis the difference between being an engine assembler and an engine BUILDER. A motor like that is truly viscosity sensitive We forget the softest thing in the rotating assembly is the bearing itself. And the goal of the 0W40 is to prevent 'wiping' that bearing which is where Stribeck comes into play. And kiddo's if it is true in that case it is true is ALL cases. No motor on earth that isn't pre-oiled on start up does not suffer 'dry start'. Worse in stop/start systems. 0W20 requires perfection every minute of every revolution. You have to have a handle on BOTH TRIBOLOGY and METALURGY to have any picture at all.

You guys have Walmart there? If so is the price of Mobil 1 0W40 double the price of Mobil 1 0W20? Same price here.

Do it early. Yes, hot and shed most early.

Did we forget? Go back in time. Most common thermostat was 180 F. There was no thermal bypass valve for the transmission. 10W40 was common oil and all were full SAPS and ATF was as viscous as an SAE 30. We didn't have GDI diluting the oil. We didn't rate a half ton pickup at well over a ton. Those meant to tow had large transmission coolers. We didn't think oil consumption measured in quarts between 3K "long drain' mile oil changes was normal. Transmission failures were pretty rare unless abused and it wasn't uncommon for an old Ford C6, Torqueflite 727 or TH-400 to go a half million miles. Diff were loaded with SAE 110 and out lasted several trucks they were moved to. Were we paying attention? Bulk oil temperature is a function of? 1.) Water temperature 2.) RPM 3.) Load 4.) Viscosity and 5.) Base oil type. and if you put a cooler on it that game changes again. Just because you motor is 'water cooled' doesn't mean fluid choices and operating/climate conditions don't have a MAJOR impact on your oil temperature. True that for the entire driveline! Where did people get the idea that a water cooled motor has a steady, tempered, oil temperature? Do we care? Oil, in SOME respects, has improved but in many others it has erased most of that improvement. What impact did hearing GM calling the 5 pinion planetary that replaced the 4 pinion an "Upgrade" to hide the fact the reduction in metallurgy offset every gain in load sharing have on those words...UPGRADE? That as a combination of all the above the units you now drive are a fraction of the reliability of a few decades ago? That every improvement in lubrication is met with a set back in either lubrication or in design or specification. More heat, lower viscosity, less cooling, more load, longer drain intervals or non-serviceable units are not the result of advancement but of greedy manufactures and apathetic consumers to lazy or ignorant to care about their own welfare or that of the machine. Engineers tell you. Information is TSB's tell you. Experience tells you. Do you care?

It's tough to find a shop that knows the difference between "In Spec" and "On Spec" and willing to go the distance to make it right. I see lots of alignment reports that are in spec and awful. I agree with newdude, let's have a look at your last report. Also, how long do you go between rotations and how many of your tires look like this?

Love this chart. Straight mineral oils reference point is 160 F. So Group IV gets you another 20 F. Not as much as you thought, eh? No one currently makes a hindered Group V turbine like oil for ICE's which would be a game changer. OEM is calling for an OCI of 7,500 miles and a bulk oil temperature of about 234 F. Yea, that isn't happening and keep that motor of your alive longer than they wish it to. I cool and operate under 200 F and currently have cut my OCI in half of the OEM recommended interval. I have been running at 2/3thds the OCI and cooling/operating below 200 F with this result. Dropping bulk oil temperatures 40 F plus increased viscosity about 2 SAE grades. Then I added one more. Darn little impact on fuel economy. Major impact on reliability. Question. 0W20 at 210 F bulk oil temps is what at 240 F? Now tow with it and run it up to 270 F + and keep your 7.5K OCI. Now tell me viscosity doesn't matter. Tell me your WONDER additives will hold the line. Explain how 7.5 K OCI is reasonable on a SAE20 running 40+ F over it's designed limits then tell me why people with vast educations in this endeavor persist in that company line? WHY and HOW 0W20 is the right choice in a world where the metallurgy is compromised for the sake of $$$$. Then explain it to me with a straight face why I should listen to such advice and keep ANY credibility.

Commentary The number one thing I hear when I do a modification or stray from the book is: "You will loose your warranty"! The second most heard thing is: "Wait until the warranty expires". The above video says both are bad advice. Okay that is forum advice. How about the GM advice? Hint, it isn't the engineering department giving that advice. He could not have been more clear; more clear about who nor more clear about what it is based on or what drives it. Not one bit of this surprised me. I've been hearing this stuff from Engineers since I was old enough to sit upright. GM is using the same thinking Zenith used to drive itself out of business. If you were paying attention to the section on the 4L60 series planetary gear fiasco you might have pickup up on the words "UP GRADE". An upgrade they were not. But it was the words used to attempt to recover from a bad discission to cheapen metals and metallurgy that had the late four gear setups failing as fast as they could install them. Perhaps you pickup on warranty parts being Tier II products? And that is the best of the rest. I was 'lucky' that the 6L80E behind the V6 didn't use that disaster of a torque converter used in the bread and butter V8 pickups and SUV's. And every time I mentioned replacing it before it crapped out I got....???? Those first two pieces of advice. Very early on I flipped the pill and when then new TBV became available I used it. Cool the fluid. Very early on I swapped to a lower temperature water thermostat. Cool the fluid some more. Swapped to a PAO based base oil D6 spec fluid. Cool the fluid some more AND give in more room. Change fluid like I own the facility which??? Keeps the valve body clean and un-abrasive. Between each step and during each step I collected, graphed and shared every step and the reasoning behind each step. And now ten years after that fact we have a GM POWERTRAIN engineer giving the EXACT same advice and to the EXACT same target temperatures even in consideration of the more robust base oil choices. Go figure. And what does cooling this unit almost a hundred degrees do? Slows oxidation AND Increased working VISOCISTY. As good fortune would have it these afore mentioned modifications also lowered my bulk engine oil temperatures to???? The values he suggest in the video. And what did he say about the claims "Todays fluids can handle it"! Pure rubbish. Early on I started using an oil with SAE40 like HTHS viscosity and cooled it some more with base oil selections which I published. [below...again] And that results in? More oxidation resistance AND more running viscosity. That 30 degree reduction is good for more than doubling oil life AND one grade in VISCOSITY. My recent move to 5W40 raised oil temperature about 3 degrees. Still a net gain in viscosity and less than 1 mpg on alcohol reduction in economy for the total package of cooling and oil upgrades. Fractions of an MPG on gasoline. I can live with that. And what has been the observed results? 188,000 miles of pretty flawless service. 3X the warranty duration. If she drops dead tomorrow...I win. I didn't write this to brag on something hidden. I've logged every move in plain site for 10 years and it has been worth every nasty comment made to me. Doing isn't' bragging. I've said this before: I'm not telling you what I think. I'm telling you what's been done. Not explaining theory. Showing an example in PRACTICE. How's that MPFI three pot looking now? Luck of the draw my eye.

@Z45 posted this link in another thread and it's worth the repost I'll comment on it later.

I agree with you. No need for name calling. Stated many times....you can get a decent service life using almost any fluid if you act in accordance with that fluids capability. That is, bend to its limitations. Look, fluid is just one piece of a total strategy. You have to give it an environment it can survive in and there is a right or wrong to it. Stack the deck in the favor of success. Keep it cool. Keep it clean. Keep it changed and keep it stress free. Plan for the unexpected. Adapt to to the unexpected. Keep the mind open.

I am now going to become INSUFFERABLE. How many have laughed at me for my use of top shelf fluids and changing them like I own the company? Told me I'm nuts and how great GM Engineers are. "Are you smarter than the GM Engineers?" Smarter? No, but it isn't the engineer is it? Start listening around 50 minutes and you will hear him give ideal fluid temps and equipment and you will hear every move I've made since I bought Pepper. Keep laughing...... Sad the state of it all. Sadder still people continue to drink the Kool-Aid. That has got to be the best hour and a quarter I've spent the internet. Thank you @Z45

Is this well understood? When GM license an oil they set the bar. That is, the license CAN tell the blender which bases it can use, which additives and how much. API ditto. ILSAC ditto and so on and so forth. Point is that ANY oil that receives the license will be very much like any other oil with that same license. Granted, this is not an absolute as some specifications have OPEN guardrails. For example the API gives a minimum HTHS value but there is no maximum hence an opportunity to 'be different' in a positive way. There is a maximum Ca value to hinder LSPI. Some chose to do just that and others do that and then add back some Mg to boost the TBN and still comply with the LPSI standard. When an oil is attempting to meet several standards this get more interesting. Knowing which standard or even auto manufactures requirements the oil is licensed for gives you an idea of the guardrails in play. In example a *W30 needs a 2.9 cP HTHS value to meet the API's minimum. If it holds an ACEA C3/C4 license that minimum is 3.5 cP and the oil can be both if that later spec it met. One of the Dexos standards is a lower deposit threshold than the API and a lower NOACK than the API. But some boutiques are HALF that of Dexos. When Shell boast use of GTL, a Group III fluid, the difference that has on oxidation and solvency is a hairbreadth above a Group III/III+. That is the change is so slight as to be imperceptible in practice. However, that GTL by nature of it's process is a lighter (lower viscosity) by and large which could mean more VM materials (depending on the formulators choices). Could mean a lower CCS. Point is the Devil is in the details and knowing those is more important than brand recognition. You don't always need to know the formula specifics if you can read the licensing and OEM approvals and what those mean to the formulator. THOSE are published.

Perhaps someone I have on ignore has mentioned this but worth stating twice if its been covered. A frequent reason an oil that 'exceeds' spec does not have a license is that little problem of base oil "Read Across". It's also the reason some of the best oils don't have an API donut. With out Read Across the oil must undergo some very expensive testing. Much more so than the cost of the license. So you get a superior oil with a more robust base oil package and an API approved add package, or better, denied being included in the DEXOS club and the API club. Sadly this non license area would also include those oil using worse or test non compliant base packages and unapproved add packages or worse. That is where discernment is handy. Pick a rose and not a skunk. I think AMSOIL, Red Line HP, Torco, and Schieffer's have cleared that "Discernment" bar pretty easy.