What GM needs to do with the Vortec Line-up

SnakeEyeSS · February 19, 2003

alright, I know you guys are thinking the same thing, this i reasonable, ford can do it, dodge can do it even better, so someone needs to kick GM in the head so they will wake up and get back in the V-8 engine market:

My thoughts towards GM's Truck engines:

5.3:

you up the power 5 HP becuase ford now has a 300HP 5.4, and Dodge a 345 horse 5.7 in their 1500 series. If this compnay can make a 405 HP Corvette get 28 MPG, how hard can it be to get this engine to 310-320 HP, with 350 Torque, and not lose any emissions stuff. Refine it, it'll work if you try

6.0:

this is getting pathetic, sure its a great engine, I can't argue. My complaint is not making EVERY 6.0 as potent as Caddy's and the Silerado SS's. Duh the SS and Caddy need to stand alone, refine it, as directed above, or slap a supercharger on it. Caddy and SS owners aren't looking for MPG, if I need to remind you. 400 HP and 400 Torque would be a starting point, remember the lightning and the Ram SRT-10 will have 500HP quicker than you guys can recite the current definition for "SS", at least your changing that

8.1:

Do you guys know NOTHING about the history of the Chevy Big Block? This is also a good engine, but once again, As directed, tune & refine the engine to at least 370 HP and 430 Torque. That poor engine is begging for more!! Keep up with the idea of a V-8 that can hammer the competitors V-10's

Duramax:

You guys finally got a Diesel that will compete world class, so why not keep it that way? the new cummins has 305 HP and 555 Torque, and its a heck of a lot smaller. how does a Duramaz variant with 306 HP and 556 Tq sound. pretty good eh? What? the marketing guys are getting excited? Lemme guess. "Chevy/GMC HD, outpowers every HD in its class, Like a Rock/We are Professional Grade"

s10mudder · February 19, 2003

I gotta agree with you on every except the big block tq. it allready got 455 and you call for 430, i hope you dont want them to lower the tq. But on the horsepower i just gotta agree with ya.

CMNTMXR81 · February 19, 2003

alright, I know you guys are thinking the same thing, this i reasonable, ford can do it, dodge can do it even better, so someone needs to kick GM in the head so they will wake up and get back in the V-8 engine market:

My thoughts towards GM's Truck engines:

5.3:

you up the power 5 HP becuase ford now has a 300HP 5.4, and Dodge a 345 horse 5.7 in their 1500 series. If this compnay can make a 405 HP Corvette get 28 MPG, how hard can it be to get this engine to 310-320 HP, with 350 Torque, and not lose any emissions stuff. Refine it, it'll work if you try

6.0:

this is getting pathetic, sure its a great engine, I can't argue. My complaint is not making EVERY 6.0 as potent as Caddy's and the Silerado SS's. Duh the SS and Caddy need to stand alone, refine it, as directed above, or slap a supercharger on it. Caddy and SS owners aren't looking for MPG, if I need to remind you. 400 HP and 400 Torque would be a starting point, remember the lightning and the Ram SRT-10 will have 500HP quicker than you guys can recite the current definition for "SS", at least your changing that

8.1:

Do you guys know NOTHING about the history of the Chevy Big Block? This is also a good engine, but once again, As directed, tune & refine the engine to at least 370 HP and 430 Torque. That poor engine is begging for more!! Keep up with the idea of a V-8 that can hammer the competitors V-10's

Duramax:

You guys finally got a Diesel that will compete world class, so why not keep it that way? the new cummins has 305 HP and 555 Torque, and its a heck of a lot smaller. how does a Duramaz variant with 306 HP and 556 Tq sound. pretty good eh? What? the marketing guys are getting excited? Lemme guess. "Chevy/GMC HD, outpowers every HD in its class, Like a Rock/We are Professional Grade"

A lot has to do with C.A.F.E. requirements. For the past few years dodge and ford have been behind because they were riding off their penalties points from CAFE for the power increases they did in the early 90's. At which time GM was behind. It's a fine line to tap dance.

5.3L

While I agree the technology is there, keep in mind, most of the new Vortec motors are a slight bit underrated anyway. As to the fuel economy issue, lets get two things clear, the LS6 in the ZO6 Corvette also has a 6 speed manual transmission who's 6th gear is a .50:1 ratio. Couple that with a relatively svelt 3,200 - 3,500 lb weight and it's not hard to get what is more like 26mpg not 28.

6.0L

There is a saying that you can't have the pony outrun the horse. From a marketing standpoint, you can't have a plain jane work truck look as powerful on paper as a premium priced upscale SUV or sport truck. So you say, "Slap a blower on it then!...Increase it's power too!"

One again, look at my C.A.F.E. comment above. But secondly, Every GM product made has to meet certain warranty cost requirement, serviceability requirement, as well as cost requirement. Adding a blower to the Escalade may push GM's warranty cost envelope, would make it considerably more difficult to service, and the cost of that S/C would be simply passed along to the consumer. Now you'll say, "well a Caddy owner will be willing to pay for it as they have LOTS of money!" That's a new one by me. I'd love an Escalade with a blower on it from the factory, but I wouldn't pay $50k for one let alone another $5k on top of that for a blown version. Many other customers would feel the same way, slowing traffic to them in a Caddy showroom, therefore slowing sales, and all the sudden the entire Escalade line becomes an unprofitable vehicle to sell (yea I know, it's an SUV, how unprofitable can it be! ) and you then lose a potential revenue stream. In the end, more harm is done than good by catering to a few power hungry customers. All in all, GM has to strike a "happy medium" which covers a broad spectrum of consumers and their needs.

8.1L

Well, I know plenty about BBC's, but here like above, a happy medium must be met. The 8.1 in it's current form is relatively tame (as I've repeatedly stated here) at 9.1:1 compression. There's a ton of room for improvement there, trust me. However, the competition's V-10's are already at a severe disadvantage to the 8.1 as it stands now as the 8.1 hammers them now. No need to risk C.A.F.E. penalties to merely beat your chest louder. When Mopar and ford answer back with significantly improved and more powerful versions of their V-10's, you can bet GM will answer with something. Why do you think they left soo much room for improvement. However, until provoked, no need to be a bully.

DuraMax

Why beat them by one HP and 1 lb-ft of torque? As it stands now, any of the big three diesels including the new 6.0L Powerstroke (when it's running) are winners. This battle right now is soooo close, it really does boil down to which truck fits YOU the driver better or whom you're loyal too. What's the answer instead? A 500hp, 750lb-ft of torque light duty diesel? Then the next year, Dodge and ford come out with comprably powered trucks. Where does the power end? 1,000hp and 1,000lbs-ft of torque? 1,500hp & 1,500lbs-ft of torque............

Oh and perhaps you haven't been watching, but GM DOES have some DuraMax answers coming soon!

With all these engines, power increases affect other things. I previously mentioned warranty costs. More power from the engine, produces more strain on the transmission, transfer case, driveshafts, and differentials. Those components then need to be beefed up in order to be compatible with these engines. This can become an Avalanche as the costs start to blossom. Once again, who in the end pays the price? You and me buying the vehicle. Well now the GM trucks start to fall out of price point competitivness with ford and Dodge and shortly thereafter sales slip because the consumer can walk across to the Dodge or ford dealership and pick up a truck within the same amount of power (5-10 here or there) for considerably less.

You have to remain price point competitive with your competition. When you price yourself out of it REGARDLESS of whatever improvements you can promote, you lose sales...period! Most people, especially in the truck market don't have power ratings ranking #1 on their list of priorities. Usually price and how much I'm gonna have to pay monthly, how soon can this asset be written down, and how long will it last are ahead of that. Power ratings come in as a bonus.

HillHound · February 19, 2003

Well now the GM trucks start to fall out of price point competitivness with ford and Dodge and shortly thereafter sales slip because the consumer can walk across to the Dodge or ford dealership and pick up a truck within the same amount of power (5-10 here or there) for considerably less.

Yep. And that's exactly what I did. The Silverado 1500 I wanted to trade for a 3/4 ton 6.0L was worth more to the local Ford dealer than it was to the local GM dealers. Now I have 3/4 ton with a more powerful engine than a Chevy pickup 6.0L and a few thousand more pictures of dead presidents in my savings account!

Brand loyal to a point, but loyalty to my hard-earned cash is never in question!

carguru · February 19, 2003

Well now the GM trucks start to fall out of price point competitivness with ford and Dodge and shortly thereafter sales slip because the consumer can walk across to the Dodge or ford dealership and pick up a truck within the same amount of power (5-10 here or there) for considerably less.

Yep. And that's exactly what I did. The Silverado 1500 I wanted to trade for a 3/4 ton 6.0L was worth more to the local Ford dealer than it was to the local GM dealers. Now I have 3/4 ton with a more powerful engine than a Chevy pickup 6.0L and a few thousand more pictures of dead presidents in my savings account!

Brand loyal to a point, but loyalty to my hard-earned cash is never in question!

And that trade value has quite a bit to do with all the incentives being offered and the Ford dealer wanting your business badly. Face it, would you consider a 2-3 year old truck that is going to have a higher finance rate or a brand new one with full warranty and zero percent financing? I don't think the choice is all that hard. The GM dealer knows it's going to take a hit and may have to dump the trade somehow (auctions or low selling price). Rather than they take the loss, they tried pass it on. I guess this time they lost the gamble. Right now is not the best time for the used car market. The Ford dealer probably took the more aggressive approach to it and gave you more for the trade.

SnakeEyeSS · February 19, 2003

CMNT, I was referring to to seperate 6.0 format, as they have now. Tune, or blow, the high-end 6.0(Caddy and SS), and just TUNE, the HD 6.0.

this in an opinion, like GM would listen to me anyway, no need to worry.

TheScaryGuy · February 20, 2003

I think it all comes down to cost. Its much cheaper to use cheaply manufactured parts in 100's of thousands of trucks than it is to make each one be the best they can be. If auto manufacturers wanted to they could more than likely get 40 miles to a gallon out of the 4.8, and 5.3. Its cheaper not to though.

They just keep the HP + TQ up high enough to keep the public happy.

Stepside Z · February 20, 2003

Why beat them by one HP and 1 lb-ft of torque? As it stands now, any of the big three diesels including the new 6.0L Powerstroke (when it's running) are winners. This battle right now is soooo close, it really does boil down to which truck fits YOU the driver better or whom you're loyal too. What's the answer instead? A 500hp, 750lb-ft of torque light duty diesel? Then the next year, Dodge and ford come out with comprably powered trucks. Where does the power end? 1,000hp and 1,000lbs-ft of torque? 1,500hp & 1,500lbs-ft of torque............

CMNT and Hill have a good point here. First off it is what meets your needs for the price. The HP wars will never go away but at what point does it get out of control. My 7.3 liter diesel is a 20+ year old design. I get 15.5 mpg doing my normal driving 17.25 mixed and 20 mpg on the freeway in a 7K lb truck. I only have 250 HP and 525 ft lbs of torque. It runs like a scalded dog and has more power then I ever need. I might not be the first at the top of the hill but I know I will get there.

CMNTMXR81 · February 20, 2003

CMNT, I was referring to to seperate 6.0 format, as they have now. Tune, or blow, the high-end 6.0(Caddy and SS), and just TUNE, the HD 6.0.

this in an opinion, like GM would listen to me anyway, no need to worry.

You and I may know that, but someone with less experience might not. They simply look on a sheet of paper with stats where a Caddy with the same amount of power (once again, on paper) but costs upwords of $50k vs. a Silverado SS with the same power for $35k? They don't care how it's branched off, segregated, or what different format it's in.

Kinda see what I mean?

But trust me, I agree with you, I think the 6.0 is in a niche market and could be a star motor if the General would choose to make it a screamer from the factory. But once again it boils down to the "can't have the pony outrun the horse" mental mindset. In order to beef up the everyday 6.0's in lesser trucks, they'd have to commensurately beef up that in the Escalade to maintain it's "prestige" factor.

WEFs99 · February 20, 2003

Are there any hp/torque sheets published besides GM's sales publications? I can't believe the flat curve that I've seen. My truck, top gear at highway speed, has about as much torque as a wet noodle. More honest low end torque with a slightly lower gear might make it tolerable. I don't know how you guys with big tires can put up with it.

bowtiebob · February 21, 2003

Hey all,

Does anybody have a percentage for the number of HD's which are shipped with the Duramax versus the 8.1 or the 6.0. To me it seems like the 8.1 is just kind of setting there, with most people deciding between the 6.0 and the Duramax on the HD pickups.

Since the 8.1 doesn't seem to drink that much more than a 6.0 and isn't selling to well, why not put it in the high dollar rigs (Escalade, H2, SS) and leave the 6.0 for the HD's only. Heck, while you are at it pump those 6.0's up and put them in all half-tons to kill the Hemi's.

So here is how your new Chevy-on-steriods lineup would look like:

1/2 ton:6.0

(Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban, Sierra, Yukon, Yukon XL, and the Denali's)

High Rollers:8.1

(SS, Escalade, H2)

HD's: as it is now (6.0, 8.1, 6.6TD)

With this setup, GM would have something to scare the Hemi Dodge's and something to scare the X5 and ML500. I am sure there are problems with this lineup, but it sure would make me happy.

CMNTMXR81 · February 21, 2003

Since the 8.1 doesn't seem to drink that much more than a 6.0 and isn't selling to well, why not put it in the high dollar rigs (Escalade, H2, SS) and leave the 6.0 for the HD's only. Heck, while you are at it pump those 6.0's up and put them in all half-tons to kill the Hemi's.

Doing that would be truck suicide. You must remain "point competitive" with your adversary's. As such, Dodge and ford aren't gonna stop putting in V-10's in their truck! Regardless of sales numbers you must have a competitive motor.

Also, I can't imagine GM (or any of the big 3) not selling a BIG V8/V10 as a top-o-the line gas motor.

Farmer_Jon_D · February 21, 2003

Power is nice, but as long as they continue to produce reliable engines, I'm happy..... :thumb:

bowtiebob · February 21, 2003

I am not trying to be argumentative. Besides, I know this would never work with CAFE, weight issues, and the such.

But why couldn't Chevrolet bump all their engines up. If they could for the same price point sell a larger engine in all their rigs, that would increase sales. Dodge did it, bringing the Hemi down from the HD's. I think it would be a very brave move, but could prove worth it.

Besides, who could resist a big yellow 496 H2.

CMNTMXR81 · February 21, 2003

Because like I said, for the last few years, Dodge has been behind for the past few years (while other manufacturer's increased power because they weren't in the dog house penalty wise) due to previous penalties from CAFE. When those penalties expired, Dodge upped the power ratings again. It's cyclical. You've seen GM with minimal power increases over the past few years cause they've been riding out CAFE penalties. Expect when these penalties subside for GM to up the ante again.

Plus, there has to be a market for an 8.1 in something like an H2. Numbers and the stats look good on paper. 496 cubes looks orgasmic when you see it on a stat sheet, but in all honesty, unless you DO buy the H2 to do some serious off-roading where torque is necessary, an 8.1 isn't a good choice. It's a low revving, high torque, brute force motor. It's not very well balanced in terms of HP to torque like the 6.0L. It'll snap off the line like no one's business, but after about 40-50mph where the RPM's are maxing out at 4,500rpm (trust me, that's how soon it's shifting!!) it simply runs out of breath. This motor in this configuration was designed as a "Grunt" motor to do work in HD truck applications where torque is king.

NOW, after making some mods, improving the heads, beefing up the compression some, then it'll become a screamer like a good little Big Block.

People keep asking why GM doesn't dump a 496 in the Vette. I keep saying for the same reasons above plus the addition of a significant increase in weight over an already excellently balanced chassis (I.E. a near 50/50 weight distribution for a Vette). The addition of all that monsterous torque isn't worth giving up all the high revving HP.