99 suburban no start - 6.5L TD

dukeofurl · February 23, 2006

Ok, this is REALLY WEIRD.

As some of you know, I bought my super rare 99 LT 3/4 ton 4x4 diesel suburban recently, and it was literallly - a miracle that we found one like this because thats a very difficult truck to buy. It went one week and "sold" and the next week it was not available and we bought it as a result.

Today was weird - someone wanted to test drive it and I just put in a new wiper fluid pump, despite GM not knowing how to make a pump that dosent fall apart after 7 years and plastic nitrile tubing that cracks and gets brittle as well.

The potential buyer tries to start the thing - it starts and then stalls out. Then it starts running again and then dies. It won't start back up. Glow plugs are kicking on and off and both batteries have a sufficient charge to keep up. He cant give it a little pedal since its a diesel and you don't flood it like a gas engine.

I managed to get it running on ONE battery once when I had the other battery removed to fix the fluid pump and I just ran it yesterday to make sure I hooked everything back up correctly.

So I'm scratching my head as my partner calls me up and says "What the f**k did you do?" and I tell him it was running yesterday. I'm GUESSING it's a no fuel condiition, so I popped the valve covers and the filter is getting fuel. I stuck the key in and started it and kept it running on the first try.

So, I've got a few thoughts.

A: Injector pump is going bad. Thats a $1000 fix. That would cause no-start.

B: Fuel pump in tank is going bad. Thats a $500 fix. That would cause no start.

C: Maybe a bad relay or computer sensor not kicking the fuel pump circuit or its detecting WOT and knowing to deliberately cut off fuel.

Anyone?

GM-Tech · February 23, 2006

Injector pump. I can almost guarantee it.

There is no pump in the tank. There is a transfer pump mounted on the frame though. Crack open the filter bleed and turn the key on and see if fuel comes out. You could also put your hand on the transfer pump and you should feel it kinda thumping, though the fact that it's working isn't a 100% guarantee it's actually transfering fuel up to the filter.

99.9% of the time, no starts or stalling is the injector pump itself. Keep in mind that it's covered by a 11 year/120,000 mile warranty. You're definitely okay time wise, though I don't know what your mileage is.

dukeofurl · February 23, 2006

Injector pump. I can almost guarantee it.

There is no pump in the tank. There is a transfer pump mounted on the frame though. Crack open the filter bleed and turn the key on and see if fuel comes out. You could also put your hand on the transfer pump and you should feel it kinda thumping, though the fact that it's working isn't a 100% guarantee it's actually transfering fuel up to the filter.

99.9% of the time, no starts or stalling is the injector pump itself. Keep in mind that it's covered by a 11 year/120,000 mile warranty. You're definitely okay time wise, though I don't know what your mileage is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey GM tech, thanks for the info!

I knew there are two pumps, one injector and something like a lift pump I assumed that was in the tank.

I cracked the filter bleed with the ignition off and there was plenty of fuel coming out, so I know the pump is delivering positive pressure.

Mileage: 100,001.5. Kinda sad that these things go out.

GM-Tech · February 23, 2006

Mileage: 100,001.5.

The injector pump is still under the special policy. Take it to a dealer and let them fix it.

dukeofurl · February 23, 2006

Mileage: 100,001.5.

The injector pump is still under the special policy. Take it to a dealer and let them fix it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Started it this afternoon, was going to drive it over there - was running just fine and then it conked out and would not restart.

I called Detroit and they said they would cover the tow and take care of it, just got back from the dealer and they've got the part on order.

dukeofurl · February 24, 2006

Mileage: 100,001.5.

The injector pump is still under the special policy. Take it to a dealer and let them fix it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Started it this afternoon, was going to drive it over there - was running just fine and then it conked out and would not restart.

I called Detroit and they said they would cover the tow and take care of it, just got back from the dealer and they've got the part on order.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey GM - besides the IP, any other items trip your "what would I look at list" on a no start or stalling condition?

The dealer said that they'd call the powertrain division and ask God to manifest an IP for me today, so they guesstimate its going to be Tuesday or Wednesday till it's done. I'm hoping that's what it is - but at the same time wondering what else I could be looking at.

Visits to some other boards indicate that the fuel solenoid or the PMD's LOVE to go bad due to heat - and I live in Florida, where the truck has been since 99. Is the PMD covered under the IP special warranty?

Also - i noticed something weird. The service advisor said he'd have to call and order the part - 2 to three days, but the Parts Department said they could have it in tomorrow if I wanted to buy it. Why is it when I want to pay $1400 for it, its here tomorrow but when GM is picking up the tab, it takes three days?

Replacement IP's - are they new stanadynes or remans? Is the lifespan with recent production IP's better than the former OEM's? It seems stupid to me to replace a terrible part with one equally terrible.

Service records indicate - 05/23/2001 017631 M J5955 - PUMP, FUEL INJECTION (DIESEL) - REPLACE 59810 miles

So if that's what I think it means, this will be #3.

GM-Tech · February 24, 2006

Service records indicate - 05/23/2001 017631 M J5955 - PUMP, FUEL INJECTION (DIESEL) - REPLACE 59810 miles

Only one?

dukeofurl · February 24, 2006

Service records indicate - 05/23/2001 017631 M J5955 - PUMP, FUEL INJECTION (DIESEL) - REPLACE 59810 miles

Only one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Only one.

dukeofurl · February 27, 2006

Got back from the dealer.

They say: My alternator is going out. Theres nothing wrong with my IP.

They want $518.

dukeofurl · February 27, 2006

I'm getting SCREWED BY THE DEALER.

I get the call this morning

"Sir, good news bad news. Your IP is fine but you need a new alternator"

"How's that?"

"Well the charging system is bad and the low battery is causing your truck not to start and/or stall out."

"Well, here's the thing - I dont understand how a bad alternator causes a DIESEL ENGINE which uses NO ELECTRICAL ignition to start and/or stall out"

"See, the Engine Management computer will shutdown your motor if the batteries run down to 8.5 volts.

"So you're saying I need a new alternator to fix my hard/no start."

"Yes"

"So you tested the alternator?"

"Yes"

"And it's going bad?"

"Yes, its not charging the system"

"I don't understand that - the motor cranks but its a no fuel condition. That makes NO SENSE.

"Would you like to talk to my tech?"

"Please!"

I go to the tech. He's out to lunch.

I make two pit stops in 30 minutes. I head to Advance Diesel, a local Cummins, Navistar, DDC repair shop and I tell them the story.

"Yeah, I think you're right and they're wrong. The IP's go bad at an alarming rate but we can check it. It could be an Oil Pressure Sensor that controls the power to the lift pump on the frame by the drivers side door, thats about $200 or, it could be the IP itself going bad but a bad alternator with the computer shutting down the engine is not the case. Does it crank after it stalls?"

"Yeah, and if theres 8.5 volts there, you're not cranking a 400 CID diesel engine on 8 volts, its just going to go click click click on you, right?"

"Yep"

So I go BACK to Rathmann's and I find the tech

"Yeah, your alternator is bad thats the problem."

"You tested it?"

"Yeah, its not even putting out 10 volts!"

"Show me"

*hooks up OBD II digagnostic sensor*

Ignition Voltage: 11.4

*hooks up stap on electrical tester to the battery*

Voltage: 12.5

*starts engine*

Ignition Voltage: 12.4 on OBD II reader, 13.5 at the battery.

"Um, give it a while to warm up."

"I've got a full tank and my day's wide open, lets see this alternator stall this motor out."

*THIRTY MINUTES PASS HERE*

Ignition Voltage: 12.3 on OBD II reader, 13.5 at the battery, 14 on the dash voltmeter.

"I don't think it's the alternator."

"Huh, well it was the alternator 6 hours ago. OH BY THE WAY - your fuel is contaiminated."

"With?"

"Metal shavings"

"Show me"

*Pulls out tub that MAY or may not have smelled of diesel fuel, my $ is on ATF*

"See them metal shavings down there at the bottom? Thats what I got"

"You took a fuel sample?"

"Yep"

"Tank or at the filter?"

"Both"

"So what does that mean?"

"It means the metal shavings are tripping your optical sensor and shutting down the pump."

I invoke Joe Pesci mode at this time.

"Ah, I see. So you mean to tell me out of the full tank of diesel fuel I got, AT THE SUNOCO which sells 10,000 gallons of #2 a week - that has a filter AT THE PUMP, some metal shavings magically got IN my 42 gallon fuel tank, WHICH IS FULL, which are SO LARGE they SANK TO THE BOTTOM OF YOUR CONTAINER which means you had to pull them from the botton of my tank, got PAST the lift pump, PAST the 100 micron fuel filter, and INTO my injection pump to trip my optical sensor."

"Yeah, you got metal in your fuel. Thats why it's stalling."

"So, if the filter housing was DOING ITS JOB trapping foreign objects, and you tapped the filter housing and found debris, don't you think thats a little too common for JUNK like this to be trapped AT THE FILTER WHERE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE?"

"Sir, you have bad fuel"

"Oh, so you're telling me that the MAGICAL METAL FAIRY DEPOSITS METAL SHAVINGS IN #2 ON ROAD DIESEL AT THE SUNOCO OFF 95 AT EXIT 173?"

"...."

They force me to pay $100 for "diagnosing" the problem as bad fuel. I charge it.

So I take the truck STRAIGHT to Advance Diesel and tell them the metal fairy story.

"Yeah, I can believe that there's metal there. What's happening is that the pump piston and liner is mechanically failing, and that's where the metal is coming from since metal chunks that big are not going to get past the filter"

"Well find out and do me a favor and tell GM that."

These f**kers are REALLY starting to piss me off.

GM-Tech · February 28, 2006

Okay, that's pretty weird. Not being there, what can I say.

BTW, lets quit calling this an "IP" okay? Every time I read that I think "Instrument Panel" since that's what it stands for.

GM-Tech · February 28, 2006

GM knows about the metal filings. That's one of the first things GM wants us to check for (and it doesn't invalidate the pump warr). The metal is from the transfer pump, which would need replacing and is not covered.