A Talk With A Friend

bdog2002 · December 13, 2003

I had this talk with a friend. This friend only loves Hondas, Acura, Mercedes,Volkswagen and BMW. I had asked him how he felt about the Nissan Titan. He honestly said" I do not know but I would say its better than any American truck". I fliped and replied if so than how can an American motor company still be in bussiness all this years if they suck. He went on to say that he truly belives than the American motor companies have the tools and technology to make the best cars and trucks, but that they are not as prescise as foreign auto makers. I filped out and got into a heated argument. My first car was a 66 impala convt. My second a 68 chevy pickup. Now I own a 02 silverado. I have always had a love for Chevy, I still do but I got to thinking about what he said. American autos are good but every one I talk to always says the same thing. Thier ok but foreign autos are made better. I just want an honest reply from fellow chevy owners. I love my Chevy and have had great respect for Chevy trucks, but i will not lie I do question american cars. It always seem to be little things that fall apart or break down. I no longer get into disscussion about autos, he is a good frien but dam I just wish his 02 Acura TL would just fall apart and cause him alot of problems. I just want to hear what some of you have on this. Thanks, its been a while since I chated but always know where the love is.

gnutruk · December 13, 2003

My general sense is that the quality of American vehicles isn't quite as good, but the capabilities and feature sets are better.

For example, compared type for type, the GM truck has a little bit higher GVWR than the Toy Tundra (don't know about the new Nissan). So the GM product can do more work.

Also, there are more performance goodies on American trucks. This is partly explained by the quality being slightly less, so Detroit has to add features to attract new buyers.

But all these trucks are more the same than there are differences. The factors I've mentioned here -- quality, features, payload -- they're really within 3 or maybe 5 percent through all the brands. When one gets slightly ahead in one area, then the others quickly catch up, and even pass into the lead a little. After that, the former leader has to scramble some. And on and on the leapfrogging game goes. Sometimes there arise what my grandfather used to call “differences that don’t make no difference.” The Quadri-Steer feature on some of the GM trucks is a good example of this. It’s nice, I’m sure, and doubtless some folks who have it will tell us that it’s the best thing since sliced bread. But its percentage in the full-sized truck market is so tiny that it could just as well not exist, and GM’s bottom line wouldn’t change hardly at all.

But having said all that, the big manufacturers don't primarily focus on issues like quality, or features, or anything of that sort. Of course, they TALK about those things in their ads, and they make it sound like quality is what they're mostly concerned about. This is largely because they understand that quality is of primary importance to us, the buyers. But quality or features isn't what they wake up each morning thinking about.

Instead, the three major issues for all the big makers are, in order of importance: market share, market share, and finally, market share. And here, the configuration of the vehicle lineup of each manufacturer, depending on their “tier” in the industry, is entirely secondary.

To be sure, a terrible reputation for quality could start to affect a company’s market share. Also, any brand that fell behind in providing features and capabilities to a given target purchasing pool would start to see unit sale declines. For example, in the fleet work truck segment, too low a GVWR would force the purchasing agents for large customers, such as utilities or government, to look elsewhere. On the other hand, a truck with a low GVWR will probably be generally lighter, and so have noticeable better gas mileage figures. So there are counter-balancing tendencies, but as a rule any given target market must be provisioned pretty close to what the competition is offering.

Because in truth, the auto / truck industry is a completely mature industry. There are changes that happen within particular vehicle types, which we all talk about among ourselves because that’s what affects OUR decisions, but there are not going to be any big shake-ups in this segment of the economy. The introduction of somewhat newer technologies -- such as gas-electric hybrid, fuel cell, etc. -- necessarily takes place very gradually. Each of the manufacturers in a branch of the industry is starting from very, very similar technological capabilities. In autos and trucks, you can bet that every single company has an extremely good idea about where their competitors will be in six or seven years. This is because they’re using the same manufacturing technology and production-organizational systems themselves, and they fairly well understand where THEY will be in six or seven years. They understand that, in turn, because they understand what their own technology is capable of achieving, and how fast it can adapt. So they all have a high degree of confidence in knowing what the other guy is capable of achieving.

So, they’re all moving down more or less exactly the same path, at more or less exactly the same speed. This is the condition that produces the general “sameness” among all the different brands, and is why there are only slight differences in quality, features, etc.

When a new kid shows up in the neighborhood, such as Toy with that Tundra, or just recently Nissan with that whatever-the-hell-you-call-it, they’re ABLE to enter that market segment because they’ve figured out what it will take to produce vehicles attractive for that segment. To produce such vehicles, in short, requires the same capability as the companies already playing in that field. Ergo ; essentially identical vehicles.

I’ll have a few closing thoughts on market share, but I’ll put them in another post, if anybody cares. Before I do, we had best see if there are any replies to this.

gnutruk

JamesB · December 13, 2003

Well now... Some good thoughts so far, but let me throw this fodder in the fire. My brother, ASE Master Tech, has worked for Toyota dealerships for the last ten years. Chevy dealers prior... Say what ya want about dealer mechanics, but he, IMHO, is good.

He works on Toyotas, but drives Chevys... He says that the toys are easier to work on, but that all makes have their problems. He says that the Toys have about the same number of TSB etc, as anything else...

While I personally believe that most all makes build a decent vehicle, I don't think that one is really that much better than another within a given price range. The bigger $$ vehicles probably have a bit better fit and finish that the lesser $ vehicles... There is real value in American branded cars and trucks.

I have never personally owned a foreign vehicle. Well, I have owned 2 Fords over the years, and have driven just about everything but the exotics... I'm a Chevy Man now and in the foreseeable future...

Again just my $.02

James.

Kal-El · December 13, 2003

First off i Have to say that all car companys make a decent car , Foreign included. They all have there problems and if they were major and didnt get fixed that company would eventually fail. Now as far as auto companys not caring about quality that is just not true. I take great offense when somebody says that all that is important is market share. I am a proud member of UAW local 549 GM Mansfield Ohio, and i for one can attest to the fact that quality is all important to GM. You would not beleive the amount of quality checks that go on inside of GM, the tolerances are set so tight that there is no margin for error, and anyone that would just let a quality matter go is subject to severe discipline. I have been in many Gm plants and this is true throught the GM family. I would still never buy a foreign car because I beleive that we as Americans should try to buy what we make, and i do know that it is not always possible. The next argument will be that hondas and such are made in the USA, yes they are but the profits go back to the foreign countries where ther parent companys are, it dosnt stay here. Then people say well they pay the same as the big 2 (GM, FORD, Deimler Benz is foreign) yes they do but anybody who beleives that they do it out of the kindness of there hearts is kidding themselves, they pay those wages because of the unions at GM, Ford and Chrysler. I do know Gm wants to make profit, if they didnt there would be no GM, and yes there are some times when there is a quality issue, but cars being machines it will happen to everyone. Now the good ol boy side there is nothing like pulling up to a foreign car or truck and having that good ol detroit steel and power, tell there isnt one of you who hasnt pulled up next to a tuner and just knew your good ol chevy or ford could eat em up and leave em lay. sorry for running on anyone wants to comment just email me.

1976 c10 custom

2003 chevy silverado ext cab z71 loaded (wifes)

2003 chevy silverado ext cab 2500hd loaded (mine, works hard)

margarida · December 13, 2003

I would like to chime in here because I used to think that the Japaneese built better quality vehicles. But this was based on the good luck I had with a 1989 Toyota 4x4 pickup. Never had any problems with it and I sold that truck with 210,000 miles to buy a 2000 Toyota Tundra because I wanted a bigger truck but didn't think the American trucks could compare.

A friend of mine you had a 10 year old Suburban told me to consider a GM truck as he hadn't had any problems with his. My response was that he just got lucky and I didn't even test drive the GM or any other American truck.

Well, within the first month here is a list of the problems I had with the Tundra:

1. Bad fuel guage sending unit (took 3 service trips to fix it)

2. Severe brake vibration (took 5 service trips to fix and was never fully repaired)

3. 4WD Actuator Failure (2 service trips to fix)

4. Numerous wind/water leaks (Too many service trips to remember)

The straw that broke the camel's back was at 61,000 miles I noticed a loud ticking noise that would go away in about 15 seconds. The cause was a cracked exhaust manifold on the drivers side. The service department told me this was a known issue with the 2000 Tundra's and that the passenger side manifold was likely going to crack to. Cost to repair was $3000!!!!!!!

I was livid, how could they charge me to repair a known problem. I thought Toyota stood behind their vehicles. I fought with Toyota and the response always was that it would have been repaired under the power train warrenty (5 years 60,000 miles) but it had expired and there was nothing they would do! Even though they admitted they knew about the problem, it wasn't a safety issue and they weren't going to issue a recall.

I'm now the proud owner of a 2004 Sierra Denali and in the 3 months I've owned it I have not had a single problem. I don't know what's down the road but I am very happy with my purchase and no longer think Japaneese vehicles are superior.

As a matter of fact, the Sierra has a smoother ride and is more quiet than the Tundra, not to mention all the options it has that you can't even get in the Toyota and a lot more power to boot.

TexMan · December 13, 2003

The Japanese imports are the best thing that ever happened for the American consumer. The imports are gradually forcing the American automakers to build better quality vehicles. I don't think there's any question that 10-20 years ago, the Japanese built better quality vehicles. But the big three are slowly waking up and realizing that if they don't want to continue losing market share, they better start thinking about building better quality vehicles also. The overall quality of American made vehicles is slowly improving, and I think they will continue to do so. The quality gap between imports and American made cars is closing fast.

Hecktorx · December 13, 2003

I saw BMW on your list up on top. Here's an interesting fact for you guys. Did you know the BMW 5 series uses a 5 speed auto GM tranny?

Anyway, the biggest selling point for me when it comes to buying American is they build a vehicle for a tall person. I'm a lanky 6'. I should be about 5'10" but my legs are a little long for my body. Whenever I get behind the wheel of a japaneese vehicle, I have to make a choice. Do I want my legs to be cramped or do I want my arms in an uncomfortable driving position.

Kenny

dukbludvl · December 13, 2003

My experience with Japanese vehicles (particularly Hondas) is that they are built relatively well if you are looking for a vehicle that will last you 100K-125K miles with virtually no problems. After that, they completely fall apart. This is based on a civic that I owned (my first car before I bought my Yukon in 2000) and hondas that friends and family have owned. Yes, my Yukon has a few fit and finish concerns (a number of rattles, leaky shock, rear window regulators failed), but it is a d**n smooth ride and it is very capable of hauling a$$.

I do think BMW is probably the best vehicle on earth. As for some of the Japanese vehicles (Nissan, Honda especially), I'm not a big fan. I love my Yukon -- VERY reliable, powerful, comfortable, and stylin.

Bruce03Silverado · December 13, 2003

hmmm...let's look at the numbers and it looks like the first foreign truck comes in at #5 in sales...hmmm, but then again numbers don't mean anything do they? somebody must loves amer. trucks fr some reason or they wouldn't be selling so many now would they?

http://www.pickuptruck.com/html/otf0999.html

if i remember correctly the #1 selling vehicle in American for the last God only knows how many years has been..................the F150...that's gotta stand for something

RyanZ71 · December 13, 2003

yet the F-150 has the lowest resale value compared to Chevy and Dodge which indicates that the F-150 doesn't hold up as well which means its not in as much of a demand as a used truck.

dieselman · December 13, 2003

Well I tryed a import truck back in 1992 4x4 space cab by Isuzu first truck with 4 wheel disc's and rear abs. I must admit it was a nice looking pickup but boy was it a piece of crap 5 burnt ex. valves with in 60000 miles rear brakes always wore out body rusted bad [yes it was rustprofed] but the thing that pissed me off the most it had no power and was hard on gas 2.6 Now I own a 00 silverado 4x4 LT 4.8 vortec this has to be the nicest truck I ever owned. P.S. it has more power than my old 350 cid. and it rides like a caddy. jap crap -- never again..

todddd41 · December 13, 2003

The F-150 sales lead is misleading, because all Ford trucks are sold as Fords. GM trucks are split into Chevy and GMC. If you combine the numbers for these makes, I believe GM sells more trucks.

As for American vs Import, it looks like the Titan is the real deal, and the big three better step up to stay competitive. 5 speed auto, nav system, and a truley cool bed tie down system (that also includes a factory spray in liner)....they've raised the bar. Now, we'll see if GM can step up and make a superior product like they did in 99-00, or lay an egg, like they did with the Silverado SS compared to the Lightning and RT-10.

As for quality issues, ask yourself, If you were sending your girlfriend / wife / daughter / sister on a cross country trip, and she could either drive a 95 Toyota SR5 or a 95 S-10, both with 150K miles, which would you send her off in? How about if it was a 92 civic, or a 92 cavilier, both with 150K miles as well. Just one way to look at it.

tmf6902 · December 13, 2003

I think it's all a matter of opinion and who you talk to.

JayMan · December 13, 2003

Well, I've owned a lot of cars and trucks over the years. I'm still mystified over this "build quality" thing. I don't care how high the initial interior "quality" is, after 5-10 years, the interior falls to pieces and/or the doors loosen up.

For example, the cloth headliner on my 1984 Ford F-150 started to fall down in 1994. It was quite a sight, me driving down the road with this headliner draped over my head. A "friend" remarked I looked like a Drag Queen on his way to a show! Some friend ... I just ripped the headliner off, threw it out the window at 65 MPH, and was done with it.

My first new truck was a 1980 Toyota 4WD. Everybody raved about the Toyota quality. I wasn't that impressed: reverse backup light switch broke after 6 months, the replacement lasted 3 months; the radio quit after 2 years; and, the box started to RUST OUT after 3 years!

Okay, they salt the roads kind of heavy around here! I discoverd the Rust Check yearly oil spray procedure and have Rust Checked all my vehicles since.

That 2-barrel 4 cylinder motor started okay enough in winter, but it was IMPOSSIBLE to start in summer, especially when hot. It would just crank. Yes, I read the owner's manual and used the "correct" procedure!

One day, I got p***ed off and walked to my shop. Got a can of Kleen Flo Starting Fluid I used to start the skidders. Sprayed some in and it fired right up. Folks thought it was cute I'd have to spray ether into a Toyota to make it start in 70 degree June weather, but NOT in -40 winter weather.

My next foreign thing was a new 1990 Toyota 4Runner. After 4 months it developed many problems: it had a defective 5 speed stick as the 2nd-3rd gear synchros would fall apart. They put in a new 5 speed after admitting to having problems. Note I was using the proper GL-4 lube, indeed I was using the expensive Mobil MobilTrans SHC 50 I used in my heavy trucks. The second trans lasted another 38,000 miles and 2nd and 3rd synchros went out again. I just said To Hell With It and double-clutched from that point until 2000 when I traded!

The 4Runner picked up a mysterious short that would blow the tailight fuse about a year after I bought it. Spent another year chasing that one down. You had to get A/C dealer installed back then, and they pinched the wiring harness when they installed the evaporator. Idiots! Instead of putting in a new harness, they spliced where the harness was pinched. Of course, the harness rotted apart 4 years later. Took me 4 days to strip the front of the dash, run new wires, and properly solder and seal the repairs.

During this downtime I drove the 1984 Ford F-150 a lot. Never let me down. It would always give plenty of warning about water pumps and starters, and after I changed to Racing Duty equipment, have never worried about those either.

The 4Runner rear ABS never did work right, so I finally pulled the fuse for it. Put a piece of black tape over the ABS warning lamp. The brakes were always anemic until I put in TRD pads. The MAF quit in 1995 and it left me stranded on a hunting trip in BFE. Should have taken the Ford, right??

To look cool, I bought a new 1992 Honda Prelude SI. A very fun, fast, and sharp looking car if there ever was one. Also so small inside my head brushed the headliner and sunroof. The HVAC blower quite in 1993 - replaced under warranty.

The ABS stopped working in 1994 (Replaced under warranty), and the sunroof started leaking and squeaking the same year. Although the valve adjustment is similar to any solid-lifter Chevy, the timing belt required a major operation.

In 1994, the dealer warned me about some bad clutches. I was raised on a stick and have NEVER lost a clutch, but I brought it in for them to test. The mechanic took the thing around the side of the garage, popped the clutch, and parts scattered everywhere. That was on their nickle, but they never got the linkage adjusted right. The shift to 3rd was usually a Crunch.

A friend in St. George Utah bought a 2000 Toy Tundra. He had odd vibrations in the steering wheel they could never fix. In September 2001, I visited him in my Sierra. For giggles, we both topped off at the same gas station, using the same 87 octane fuel, and drove to Lost Wages at the same 80 MPH speed. He drove my truck and I drove his Tundra. My hands are still sore from the shaking steering wheel!

We topped off in Lost Wages (We only go into casinos to eat the good food and oogle the pretty waitresses, gambling sux), using the same gas station and 87 octane fuel, and kept 80 MPH back to St. George, Utah. We drove our own vehicles return trip.

There is a very long and steep grade on I-15 going out of the Virgin River Gorge into Utah. Combined with the 110 degree heat, you see a lot of cars overheated. My GMC had no problems and maintained 80 MPH up the grade with the A/C on. My friend's Tundra slowed to 45 MPH, then he called me on the CB to let me know he was overheating.

I stopped and we waited in my truck for 15 minutes while his cooled off. Mine idled the whole time with the A/C on Max, and the temp gauge climbed 2 notches over the 210 center reading.

Finally back in St. George, we topped off again. Here are the results: My truck averaged 19.4 MPG at 80 MPH, A/C on Max, with 110 desert heat. No problems with power on long I-15 grades, no overheats at all. My friend's Tundra averaged 16.6, had trouble keeping up to me, and did overheat on the way back.

FYI my friend is just as anal-compulsive looking after cars as I am. He was truly p***ed over that incident. He also felt my GMC gave a superior ride and had much better seats. He made a copy of my window sticker (I keep them in the Owner's Portfolio when I buy new) and next week special ordered a GMC Sierra just like mine, except in white

Foreign cars "easier" to work on than a domestic car? Geez, what are you smoking?!? How many full size American trucks need timing belts and valve adjustments? The timing belt and valve adjustment on the 4Runner ran close to $800: you have to replace shims to adjust the valves. My Ford truck has over 300,000 miles and I've never adjusted the valves once.

My 2000 GMC Sierra is proving VERY easy to live with and VERY easy to repair/maintain. No timing belts here. True, it doesn't have a Lexus interior, but I'm not complaining.

I completely reject this Urban Legend of Toyota's and Honda's running maintenance-free for +100,000 miles with no timing belt replacement. When the timing belt finally quits, you blow the motor. And no Tundra or Titan will match my 1500's towing capacity.

I don't think I would consider a new F-150. Part of their low resale value has to do with Fleet sales, so the 2 year old F-150's take a real beating in resale.

EMPIRE231 · December 13, 2003

As for quality issues, ask yourself, If you were sending your girlfriend / wife / daughter / sister on a cross country trip, and she could either drive a 95 Toyota SR5 or a 95 S-10, both with 150K miles, which would you send her off in? How about if it was a 92 civic, or a 92 cavilier, both with 150K miles as well. Just one way to look at it.

very good point!

I have dealt w/ both experiences! my brother has a 95 toyota tacoma, and this thing probably has near 300k miles on it and it still runs like a champ! only thing ever changed was a starter and a battery! my friends 2000 S10 45k miles, blown tranny, burnt fuel pump, and some other little stuff. now I know driving style influences it alot, but common.....

I am happy w/ my 2000 gmc 1500 w/ 5.3, other than the piston slap, 2 window regulators, 1 hub assembly, the creaking dash! but hey every truck has it's problems right? oh yeah, my truck only has 36k miles on it. I drove my friends tundra and it's pretty nice... pretty quick, I just dont like the interior.

as far as what's better (forgien vs. domestic) it all depends on what aspects you look at. I think a forgien vehicle is more dependable, but my next truck will most likley be a gmc 2500hd.

question#1. doesn't ISUZU make the duramax engine?

and about the ford/ chevy being #1 sales... that is primarily because the are used by almost ALL gov. jobs/agency's, commercial business, construction, law enforcement, BLM, etc.