Westers copared to stock pcm

michigan2500hd · March 21, 2006

Hope this doesnt start a war on tuned pcm's but i have a couple of issues on my westers tune. The most recent truck i put a Westers computer on is a 1500 crew cab w/ 5.3L. I didnt really expect to feel a big differance right away after installation because i was aware that the computer needed time to "learn". But after having the pcm in the truck 4 or 5 months i decided to switch it back to stock and see if i could feel that the westers was tuned better. To my surprise the stock pcm made the truck more responsive through the entire powerband and the millage so far has gone up a little. The truck didnt run bad on the Westers tune but it does run better i think on the stock tune. It will spin the tires a little better and kicks down and moves now that i have the stock pcm back in it. I am not bashing Westers by any means but i am wondering why i spent a lot of cash for what seems like less power getting to the ground. This is the second truck i have put the westers in. The first being a 2500HD w/ 6.0L. I didnt notice much gain with that one either but the better shifting and firmer shifts made it worth it to me. When it came time to trade the HD in i swapped out the Westers and put the stock one back in. At that time the truck seemed to really get up and go and on the way to the dealer it could burn both back tires from a stop easier than it did with the Westers. I dont make a habit of driving hard but i want the option to be able to race at the stop lights if some punk in a ricer with a fart can on it wants to give it a go. On my current truck with the westers tune it up shifts softer but downshifts are to firm. I had asked him to firm up all shifts and do what he could to max offline performance. The truck was new ( maybe 800 miles ) when i dropped the Westers in it and i knew it had to get broke in before i would get the most power out of it so i was giving it a chance to do that. Anybody else question the effectiveness of their after market pcm? I would talk to Mr. wester about it but last time i had him do an update on my HD the replacement tune was even weaker than the first one.

Z'06 · March 21, 2006

Yikes! I have been looking into Westers now that I have completed most of my performance mods.

Funny thing though - right before I sold my old 5.7L Tahoe, which I had driven for years using [a popular handheld programmer], I felt the same improvement in responsiveness immediately after deprogramming. At first, I figured that truck's computer had not had sufficient time to adjust back to the newly-reintroduced stock settings, yet I remembered feeling noticeable improvement right after I had installed the handheld program, so I have been wondering if there is a "honeymoon period" that eventually wears off.

Butch 02 Denali · March 21, 2006

What type of tune did you get for those two trucks, and what octane are you running? Was it a dual octane tune? If the tune is detecting any pinging and the computer is retarding the timing, performance and economy will really suffer. Did you specify a towing load when ordering?

Many variables when ordering custom tuning. One of the problems I see many times is ordering a tune for a certain octane gas, and then running the lowest if a dual tune, or even lower octane gas in it. The tune must be set for the octane you are running, or better said, you must run the octane the tune is designed for or you very well could get less performance and worse gas mileage.

Another factor is the short term memory. This is different than the appx 100 mile learning time a new pcm needs to adjust itself to all the sensors in the truck. Short term memory learns your driving style. Disconnecting the battery will reset the short term memory, but not touch the initial learn cycle. Quite often just disconnecting the battery for 1/2 hour will perk a tune right up as all the drivers memory settings will be reset to zero. That is usually what happens when a pcm is swapped, either way, stock to tuned, or tuned to stock. This is probably what Z'06 felt when he swapped his too. Just for a test, swap the tuned pcm back in and see what you feel. Otherwise back to the octane question again.

The shift firmness between upshift and down shift cannot be tuned seperatly. Firming the upshift firms up the downshift the same amount. Don't know what to tell you on that one!

Send me some details by e-mail and I'll gladly look into this for you!

michigan2500hd · March 21, 2006

What type of tune did you get for those two trucks, and what octane are you running? Was it a dual octane tune? If the tune is detecting any pinging and the computer is retarding the timing, performance and economy will really suffer. Did you specify a towing load when ordering?

Many variables when ordering custom tuning. One of the problems I see many times is ordering a tune for a certain octane gas, and then running the lowest if a dual tune, or even lower octane gas in it. The tune must be set for the octane you are running, or better said, you must run the octane the tune is designed for or you very well could get less performance and worse gas mileage.

Another factor is the short term memory. This is different than the appx 100 mile learning time a new pcm needs to adjust itself to all the sensors in the truck. Short term memory learns your driving style. Disconnecting the battery will reset the short term memory, but not touch the initial learn cycle. Quite often just disconnecting the battery for 1/2 hour will perk a tune right up as all the drivers memory settings will be reset to zero. That is usually what happens when a pcm is swapped, either way, stock to tuned, or tuned to stock. This is probably what Z'06 felt when he swapped his too. Just for a test, swap the tuned pcm back in and see what you feel. Otherwise back to the octane question again.

Send me some details by e-mail and I'll gladly look into this for you!

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Thanks, i will write a detailed email. As for the tune i ordered a 87-89. The truck seems to run the same between the 87 and the 89 but if i run 93 it seems to have a little more zip. As for pinging or spark knock i cant remember of ever hearing it on this truck. I hope i can find a way to make the tune better and wester has always been a great guy to talk to on the phone.

averagehonky · March 21, 2006

I think most of these mods the 'boy' racers get sucked into are virtually worthless. But it's big cash for the sellers. I'm not sure what kind of damage will result over time. I'd be certainly wary of buying a used pick up these days for sure. Some of these guys try anything. Work for a couple hundred dollars a week and hear about some wonder crap on the internet and stay broke most of the time. Helps if the parents chip in, of course. Leave it stock. Don't be tuning, chipping, cranking, lowering, bagging, using oiled air filters, tranny mods, exhaust BS, etc , etc, etc.

srlbotanical · March 21, 2006

I think most of these mods the 'boy' racers get sucked into are virtually worthless. But it's big cash for the sellers. I'm not sure what kind of damage will result over time. I'd be certainly wary of buying a used pick up these days for sure. Some of these guys try anything. Work for a couple hundred dollars a week and hear about some wonder crap on the internet and stay broke most of the time. Helps if the parents chip in, of course. Leave it stock. Don't be tuning, chipping, cranking, lowering, bagging, using oiled air filters, tranny mods, exhaust BS, etc , etc, etc.

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And while your at it, stay on the road and out of the sand. Never ever go through the mud, and make sure all four wheels are always planted firmly on the ground...

Man, I LOVE messing with my truck. Why on earth would I keep it STOCK?

Steve

michigan2500hd · March 21, 2006

I think most of these mods the 'boy' racers get sucked into are virtually worthless. But it's big cash for the sellers. I'm not sure what kind of damage will result over time. I'd be certainly wary of buying a used pick up these days for sure. Some of these guys try anything. Work for a couple hundred dollars a week and hear about some wonder crap on the internet and stay broke most of the time. Helps if the parents chip in, of course. Leave it stock. Don't be tuning, chipping, cranking, lowering, bagging, using oiled air filters, tranny mods, exhaust BS, etc , etc, etc.

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We woulnt have to mod our trucks if they would build them right at the factory. Some of us need our trucks to do things others dont. In my IMHO these trucks should come from the factory with a lot more usable power, bigger tires, and more aggresive tread. But that just me, i work in construction and hunt and fish in very remote areas. You build a truck up the way you need it. Personally i would never lower a truck because it wouldnt work as well for me. But if someone want to do that to their truck thats up to them. I just think they should quit building trucks for sissys who dont use them as trucks. I.e.-- yuppies.

mmmikkke · March 21, 2006

I agree. That's why real men don't buy cars any more. Cars are designed for women: "What color is it?"

I keep my truck stock under the hood because I want it to last a long, long time, and I also want to do my share to keep our air clean. I think these "tunes" run the system open-loop, and there are a lot higher unhealthy emissions as a result.

Z'06 · March 21, 2006

I keep my truck stock under the hood because I want it to last a long, long time, and I also want to do my share to keep our air clean.

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Non-stock upgrades do not necessarily sentence a vehicle to an early death - maintenance and driving habits are huge factors in determining a vehicle's life, and some mods (if carefully selected and installed) should extend a vehicle's life and maintain (or even improve) emissions quality.

Butch 02 Denali · March 22, 2006

I agree. That's why real men don't buy cars any more. Cars are designed for women: "What color is it?"

I keep my truck stock under the hood because I want it to last a long, long time, and I also want to do my share to keep our air clean. I think these "tunes" run the system open-loop, and there are a lot higher unhealthy emissions as a result.

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Mike, I fully understand your feelings about keeping your truck all stock. Some do and thats OK too. Most of us are in these forums because we like to play with and tweak our trucks to make them better and/or different than what the factory offers us!

But just to clarify a few things, A well written custom tune will not run in open loop any more than a stock tune will. Open loop is enabled when the truck is below roughly 160 degrees as its warming up and when the throttle is pushed past 75%. This cannot be changed by the tuning, it is part of the GM programming and cannot be altered. The factory runs the programming VERY rich in open loop, custom tuners lean this out to a more reasonable amount. Less richness at warmup means less oil washed off the cylinder walls and less wear. It also warms the engine up faster. Custom tunes when in closed loop are well proven to run CLEANER emissions than stock and will almost always improve gas mileage. Engine efficiency goes up when tuned, less throttle is needed to go the same speed. Engine wear would be reduced with a tune IF THE TRUCK WAS DRIVEN EXACTLY THE SAME as it was driven stock. Unfortunatly, most drive harder when they have a tune because it's more fun! Anyone with State full emission testing will pass with cleaner emissions after the tune, even on the dyno roller drive cycle test. I can verify that myself.

mmmikkke · March 23, 2006

Well, I stand corrected. That sounds pretty credible. And it makes me a bit more interested in a custom tune...

So how about hazarding an educated guess on what percent of tunes on the road are running closed loop (when warmed up).

michigan2500hd · April 3, 2006

Swapped the westers back in last week after the dealer replaced the throttlebody. This time the truck feels quicker. Like i expected it to when i first put the westers in it. Good thing i took it out before taking it to the dealer because they did a reprogram on it. This weekend i moved a shed i had built for my grandparents so i had a fair amount of weight to pull. The tailer wieghs about 2000 lbs, the shed was about 2500 lbs and probably another 1000 in tools and extras. The truck really surprised me as far as power, it really wanted to move. I really had to be carefull with the go pedal or i was afraid my dad who was following me in his prism would be wearing a shed on his roof. Wonder why some days it feels like a race truck and other times its a huge turd? I dont think it has any thing to do with

fuel quality. Cause saturday it was a screamer and sunday it was a dog. Wierd....could the barametric pressure and humidity affect it that much?

Butch 02 Denali · April 3, 2006

Mike, ALL cars and trucks are running in closed loop whan they're warming up! I bet 25% of the vehicles on the road at any time are warming up and still in closed loop! Many guys add a 160 thermostat and NEVER get out of closed loop on cool days!

Mark, yes, pressure, humidity and temperature all have effects on the engine. The PCM uses a set of tables called load tables and is always over riding the tuned parameters based on those factors and many other sensor inputs, including your driving style. These load tables are a non-tunable part of the PCM programming. Wish we could get into these, they are the secret to some serious power increases, but only GM has the ability to tweak these!

ken1mod · April 3, 2006

Gentlemen,

I love messing with my truck too. Just remember Mashing riceburners is even more fun.

If anyone has a dynomite mod for my 5.3, I would love to try it. It just all seems to be trade offs.

Personally, I love low end, tire smoking torque and won't trade 1 foot pound for more hp at 6000 rpm. Remember, the race is only 100 feet long.

Ken

Z'06 · April 4, 2006

If anyone has a dynomite mod for my 5.3, I would love to try it. It just all seems to be trade offs.
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I'd say "dynamite" is in the eye of the beholder, but I can tell you that one of my cheapest and most enjoyable mods for the dollar so far has been the Vette servo, and I would recommend it to anyone. Not only more fun (wait until you see what passing other vehicles is now like), but gets rid of those destructive soft shifts that hurt all of these trucks' transmissions, no matter how they are used.

I would say no trade-offs either, since the shifting is not neck-snapping (like the non-OEM billet servos) and since dealers cannot easily see you have done the mod and try to void your warranty (although any warranty company should be thanking you for helping to preserve the life of the transmission).