Roller Cams

gmchevroletruck · September 22, 2009

Ok...been away for a while, completely absorbed at bobistheoilguy.com - dizzying amount of info about oils, useless in pure form unless you rack your brain and try to formulate conclusions, which some seem to have been trying for 3 years to do, so this won't be over anytime soon lol...

In any case, this is the forum on which to ask this question, which has to do with motor oils...for the following 2 engines, do they have roller cams?

1) 94 TBI 5.7 (350)

2) 02 5.3 (LM7)

Some of you will probably know exactly why I'm asking this

dlstewart01 · September 22, 2009

Yes, I believe GM went to rollers in the mid to late 80s in cars.... Trucks on the other hand may not have gone to rollers till 1996. and if you have been over there for some time you should have found out by now all the major api approved oils are really good. Just pick one. Pennzoil Platinum is a favorite, and Valvoline has really came a long way.

Now for flat tappets something rated SL like German Castrol the European formula 0W30 or Red line will work.

I did use Mobil 1 but got away from it when they started using too much group 111 in their formula and there is the high iron that shows up in the oil analysis.

For the last 4 years I have used German Castrol Syntec the European formula, made in Germany, only available at Auto Zone. Its a 0W30 but is a thick 30 weight, and is a group 1V true synthetic. It has performed really well.

txab · September 22, 2009

IIRC the '94 has the conventional cam, flat lifters, rocker with ball setup.

gmchevroletruck · September 24, 2009

Yes, I believe GM went to rollers in the mid to late 80s in cars.... Trucks on the other hand may not have gone to rollers till 1996. and if you have been over there for some time you should have found out by now all the major api approved oils are really good. Just pick one. Pennzoil Platinum is a favorite, and Valvoline has really came a long way.

Now for flat tappets something rated SL like German Castrol the European formula 0W30 or Red line will work.

I did use Mobil 1 but got away from it when they started using too much group 111 in their formula and there is the high iron that shows up in the oil analysis.

For the last 4 years I have used German Castrol Syntec the European formula, made in Germany, only available at Auto Zone. Its a 0W30 but is a thick 30 weight, and is a group 1V true synthetic. It has performed really well.

thanks for the post - you seem very knowledgeable on the topic, much appreciated...

questions it leads me to are...

I didn't know M1 was group III (?)

Would that explain why it has high iron? (do all group III's have high iron? And, is it harmful?

The German Castrol, being an SL rated oil, I would assume that part of the allure there would be higher phosphorous and zinc? And, does this oil do as good a job of keeping the motor clean as M1 seems to be doing? (Mine appears spotlessly clean in the valve cover at 138k, which I'm very pleased with. However, I am suspecting, based on a number of general specs observed, that M1 may be less adept at preventing wear even compared to other SM rated oils (?)

Any thoughts on the matter may help to clear up the mud...

gmchevroletruck · September 24, 2009

let me just clarify, that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and even though one or more of you have probably answered the question above, I wouldn't know it, so let me ask it a different way, so it will make sense with my limited knowledge...

zddp seems to be more important for engines with "flat tappets".

1) do either of the above engines have flat tappets? (i'm not even sure what they are to be honest - for all the automotive stuff I thought I knew, and have even rebuilt an engine, I don't know some of what this terminology refers to, as I have not rebuilt more than one specific engine)

2) if an engine has hydraulic lifters, does it automatically not have flat tappets?

fcknmaw · September 24, 2009

For flat tappets, Valvoline VR1 is ZDDP rich. A good choice IMHO

dlstewart01 · September 24, 2009

[

questions it leads me to are...

I didn't know M1 was group III (?)

Would that explain why it has high iron? (do all group III's have high iron? And, is it harmful?

The German Castrol, being an SL rated oil, I would assume that part of the allure there would be higher phosphorous and zinc? And, does this oil do as good a job of keeping the motor clean as M1 seems to be doing? (Mine appears spotlessly clean in the valve cover at 138k, which I'm very pleased with. However, I am suspecting, based on a number of general specs observed, that M1 may be less adept at preventing wear even compared to other SM rated oils (?)

Any thoughts on the matter may help to clear up the mud...

Mobil 1 is a mixture of group 111 and group 1V. Depends which weight as to how much group 111 is in the mixture. This has been posted on Bitog.com In the US oil companies do not have to say what group it is. They can call group 111 synthetic. In foreign countries they must disclose the content. Several people have posted msds sheets from Japan and other countries with the mixture make up.

Mobil 1 does keep an engine clean. But after 4+ years on German Castrol my engine is dang clean as well. And my iron count is lower. I believe on my last Blackstone report it was 4. I need to get another one off , now that I am retired I don't drive as many miles as I used to.

Its all there on BITOG.com if you have the patients to cut through all the BS.

Mobil 1 Japanese MSDSs: http://www.msds.exxonmobil.com/psims/psims.aspx

____________________________________________________

0W-40 – Revised Dec 31, 2008

KEROSENE...0.1-1 %weight...What the

SLACK WAX (PETROLEUM), HYDROTREATED...50-60 %weight

Mineral Oil...5-10 %weight

_____________________________________________________

5W-40 – Revised Nov 6, 2007

Mineral Oil...30-40 %weight

_____________________________________________________

0W-30 – Revised Nov 7, 2007

Mineral Oil...10-20 %weight

_____________________________________________________

5W-30 – Revised Nov 14, 2007

Mineral Oil...40-50 %weight

_____________________________________________________

10W-30 – Revised Dec 21, 2007

Mineral Oil...50-60 %weight

gmchevroletruck · September 25, 2009

for the following 2 engines, do they have roller cams, or do they have flat tappets?

1) 94 TBI 5.7 (350)

2) 02 5.3 (LM7)

dlstewart01 · September 25, 2009

for the following 2 engines, do they have roller cams, or do they have flat tappets?

1) 94 TBI 5.7 (350)

2) 02 5.3 (LM7)

If the 94 came out of a truck it has the flat tappets.

The 02 has a roller.

GM has used hydraulic lifters for years.

ken1mod · September 25, 2009

Gentlemen,

I do not know much about oils other than that all major oils, dino or synthetic will give your engine a long and happy life. I believe this based on my fleet experience where we only used 30w dino oils changed at 6000 mile intervals. Heavy duty, high temp, in city, trailer towing and non owner drivers and we saw virtually no wear at teardown. Failures were caused by failed hoses causing overheat and drivers not stopping.

I do know that flat tappet cams and lifters were the hardest part of an engine to lubricate. Going to rollers really simplified the concept of lubrication. I further believe that proper design with big bearings and good oil flow to them is more important than the type of oil used. Our Chevy engines go 300 k because they are well designed.

Ken

dlstewart01 · September 25, 2009

Gentlemen,

I do not know much about oils other than that all major oils, dino or synthetic will give your engine a long and happy life. I believe this based on my fleet experience where we only used 30w dino oils changed at 6000 mile intervals. Heavy duty, high temp, in city, trailer towing and non owner drivers and we saw virtually no wear at teardown. Failures were caused by failed hoses causing overheat and drivers not stopping.

I do know that flat tappet cams and lifters were the hardest part of an engine to lubricate. Going to rollers really simplified the concept of lubrication. I further believe that proper design with big bearings and good oil flow to them is more important than the type of oil used. Our Chevy engines go 300 k because they are well designed.

Ken

Good answer, there are no magic oils. Just good maintenance.

gmchevroletruck · September 26, 2009

for the following 2 engines, do they have roller cams, or do they have flat tappets?

1) 94 TBI 5.7 (350)

2) 02 5.3 (LM7)

If the 94 came out of a truck it has the flat tappets.

The 02 has a roller.

GM has used hydraulic lifters for years.

Yes, I knew that GM has used hydraulic lifters for many years, since the 80s I believe...I was trying to ask if an engine has hydraulic lifters, does that mean that it couldn't possibly have flat tappets?

dlstewart01 · September 26, 2009

for the following 2 engines, do they have roller cams, or do they have flat tappets?

1) 94 TBI 5.7 (350)

2) 02 5.3 (LM7)

If the 94 came out of a truck it has the flat tappets.

The 02 has a roller.

GM has used hydraulic lifters for years.

Yes, I knew that GM has used hydraulic lifters for many years, since the 80s I believe...I was trying to ask if an engine has hydraulic lifters, does that mean that it couldn't possibly have flat tappets?

Way before the 80S and Yes flat tappets are hydraulics.

All lifters before rollers are flat tappets. The early lifters were called solid lifters and manually adjusted for the proper clearance manually useing a feeler gage and locked down. They required periodic adjustment. They were noisy and tapped a lot. They did not float at high RPM.

Hydraulic lifters are self adjusting using oil pressure to pump them up to take up the slack. They require no adjustment after initial setup. They have been used for a loooooooong time. They would float at high RPM.

gmchevroletruck · September 26, 2009

for the following 2 engines, do they have roller cams, or do they have flat tappets?

1) 94 TBI 5.7 (350)

2) 02 5.3 (LM7)

If the 94 came out of a truck it has the flat tappets.

The 02 has a roller.

GM has used hydraulic lifters for years.

Yes, I knew that GM has used hydraulic lifters for many years, since the 80s I believe...I was trying to ask if an engine has hydraulic lifters, does that mean that it couldn't possibly have flat tappets?

Way before the 80S and Yes flat tappets are hydraulics.

All lifters before rollers are flat tappets. The early lifters were called solid lifters and manually adjusted for the proper clearance manually useing a feeler gage and locked down. They required periodic adjustment. They were noisy and tapped a lot. They did not float at high RPM.

Hydraulic lifters are self adjusting using oil pressure to pump them up to take up the slack. They require no adjustment after initial setup. They have been used for a loooooooong time. They would float at high RPM.

I am getting too old to teach engine design and operation 101. And I saw your post on BITOG.com

I've actually done some valve adjustments manually myself, I understand how that part works. And I know what hydraulic lifters are...I just did not know what flat tappets are - some folks over there on bitog have been saying that anything with flat tappets needs extra zddp for the extra pressure, I just don't know what a flat tappet is

gmchevroletruck · September 26, 2009

for the following 2 engines, do they have roller cams, or do they have flat tappets?

1) 94 TBI 5.7 (350)

2) 02 5.3 (LM7)

If the 94 came out of a truck it has the flat tappets.

The 02 has a roller.

GM has used hydraulic lifters for years.

Yes, I knew that GM has used hydraulic lifters for many years, since the 80s I believe...I was trying to ask if an engine has hydraulic lifters, does that mean that it couldn't possibly have flat tappets?

Way before the 80S and Yes flat tappets are hydraulics.

All lifters before rollers are flat tappets. The early lifters were called solid lifters and manually adjusted for the proper clearance manually useing a feeler gage and locked down. They required periodic adjustment. They were noisy and tapped a lot. They did not float at high RPM.

Hydraulic lifters are self adjusting using oil pressure to pump them up to take up the slack. They require no adjustment after initial setup. They have been used for a loooooooong time. They would float at high RPM.

I am getting too old to teach engine design and operation 101. And I saw your post on BITOG.com

In any case, thank you for the info, I do appreciate it...just trying to figure out if the 94 will need extra EP lube (not an additive - I'm not a fan of messing up an oil's formulation), just seeing if it had flat tappets, and then I will continue research to see if it seems appropriate to use an oil already formulated (M1 TDT etc...) with higher zddp. I just needed to know what exactly a flat tappet is. Never had a reason to know that...It's not usually pertinent - if you're just maintaining a vehicle. I am an hvac guy, and a shade tree guy for fun and necessity. And I know if a vehicle that I have, has hydraulic lifters or not, but...just did not know the definition of flat tappet, and thought this would be a great place to find out.