Dealer Advertising Adjustment

[AngelPhoenix]

1 hour ago, nards444 said:

Nothing brand specific here.  Dealers always trying to add in "mandatory pricing items."  The reality is they buy a car from GM/Ford/dodge for x price and then sell it to you, which frankly they can sell it for what they want.  

 

This is how I play dealers and suggest others do as well.  Keep in mind while the market is swinging back to the buyers it's still not what it was yet.

 

1. If you are dead loyal to a dealer, you are dead wrong, you should at least price check them.  I buy a new vehicle every 2-3 years from different places and the same local dealer happily services them.  

 

2. There is a not a large profit margin on new vehicles,  depending on what it is you could be talking a few hundred bucks(chevy cruz)  or a few thousand in a truck or suburban.  Dealer then has over head, salesman etc.  They make their money on trades and service.  So dont be the buy that comes in expecting 20k off.  

 

3. Dont shop at a dealer that wont give you the build sheet/invoice. That is a fair practice that way we all know where to start

 

4.  In a normal market invoice pricing is not a good deal, those spouting they got invoice you got ripped in a normal market.  

 

5.  Incentives and promotions are usually on top of what you already negotiated or are separate.  You sometimes have to mix and match these based on your situation. But no usually are not negotiable, so dont be that guy on these and ask for more off

 

6.  Watch dealer added line items.  Paint protection, scotch guard, tint,  locked wheel lugs, and yes extended warranties(which if you do the math on these its dumb to get these up front)  you can get them later from the same dealer at the same price or even lower.  Things like DOC fees and so forth, understand what they can legally charge by your state, no wiggle room on these usually and I usually dont bring these up if they are couple hundred bucks.  More than that I would really question them.  Ive had dealers go all out on some of these mandatory add ons,  some people want which is fine.  But I have gotten up and walked away because of some of them and they usually take them off.

 

7.  When negotiating price.   Understand where to start.  If you have the GM discount its a done deal you get the discount plus incentives, thats it you are done.  Employee discount is hard to beat, but you can beat the friends and family discount.  No sense in playing games with employee discount,  friends and family I suggest getting the best price and then saying what if I could get friends and family and see what they say.

 

If you are a normal joe you want to get invoice pricing from them.  Take MSRP and multiply by 3% to get holdover.  Then subtract that number from invoice, that is what they paid for the vehicle and is the wiggle room.  Example;  truck cost $100,  hold over is $3 and invoice is $93.  They paid $90.  You negotiate to start to pay $90 then add incentives on top of that.  You could start lower, then 90 but going to be tough.  

However you do it, you can always throw in oil changes, car washes or even have them throw in warranties and such as well.   There are also hidden factory incentives out there they wont tell you,  ive come to find, sometimes you just get lucky and they apply those, or you picked a car on the lot they wanted gone.  

 

Few last truths to keep in mind

 

1. Incentives are factory skin,  dont let a dealer make you think they are doing it for you,  some will some wont.  

 

2. End of the month can be a better time to get a few bucks more.  This thought is over played though specially for high volume dealers.  You might get lucky and get a few bucks from the salesmen that has to make his number

 

3. You will always be able to better negotiate on lot cars vs special orders,  it makese sense.  But dont expect to see a huge difference.  Lot cars can be advantageous if they have sat for a while, as the dealer typically doesnt buy with cash, they are most times on a loan from the factory and they are paying interest to keep them.  

 

4.  Don't get unrealistic ideas from guys "deals" on the internet.  I got 10% off invoice, no they didn't.  

 

5. Cash doesnt matter, chances being they dont want your cash and youll  have to write a check anyways.  Most prefer a loan anyways as they get points (money) for every loan they sell.  Most dealers Ive worked will actually throw me a few hundred bucks for their points.  So dont be the cash guy.  When in price talks never tell them which way you are paying until you get a final price or feel like your getting close.  And no you dont need to see my DL or run my credit until we decide on a number or a final price is hinging off my credit score.  Also keep in mind some dealers wont want their time wasted on 80k trucks with a guy that cant afford half of that.  

Wow dude, thanks for this!

 

I am aware of and practicing most of this already, but not all of it. I especially don't tell them how I'm paying until I have the paperwork to sign in front of me. Didn't know about the holdover pricing, or the end of the month thing. 

 

You should make a new post out of this and get it stickied though, really great stuff. 

 

I have 4 different dealers on the hook trying to get the best price out of them. The GM dealers have been the most responsive by far. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by AngelPhoenix

[AngelPhoenix]

10 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Rams are the sales leader here with discounts. My brother is on his fourth. 3 are still at his shop. The oldest over 200K miles. Our local dealership has lifetime warranty. The last one I owned was a 2009 2 door V-8 it was a blast. My favorite is of course my avalanche. Depending on price if I stumble on a 2 door 5.0 Ford pickup I will drive it. The most bad ass truck is the TRX. My old business head foreman has one. It’s been flawless for a year. My nephew and the head salesman drive Raptors. All I can say GM where’s the beef? 

They may be the discount leader, the place I bought my current truck from is essentially giving me  almost $6,000 of MSRP (vs this offer from Chevy which is less than $3.000 off MSRP), but the bottom line is STILL higher than the MSRP of the Chevy I built (and therefore still about $3,000 higher than this offer from Chevy), and the Chevy has more tech and standard features.

[nards444]

1 hour ago, AngelPhoenix said:

Well, Ford lots may be filling back up, but it's with F150's and other stuff. Superduty's are still a hot item. 

 

And Ram is filling back up because they're essentially in last place as far as powertrain options and interior and exterior updates, and yet they're charging the most

 

So I figured I had myself down to Chevy/GMC, and the only GMC HD's I like are the AT4 (except brown interior highlight color, ew) and the Denali Ultimate, which is out of my price range. So Chevy it is. That is, if I can actually get the truck I want (with the currently restricted Z71 Sport Package) at a price that seems fair to me. 

 

Starting to think I should have waited a year but GM finally mating the 10-Speed to the 6.6 gas got me all excited lol

 

Ram is still outselling GM as of a month ago.  Whats hurting ram right now and what you said is they are basically running a 4 year old truck, where as the other two have new models out. 

 

And measure money off from invoice not MSRP.  Bargaining from MSRP is not wise

Edited June 26, 2023 by nards444

[KARNUT]

4 minutes ago, AngelPhoenix said:

They may be the discount leader, the place I bought my current truck from is essentially giving me  almost $6,000 of MSRP (vs this offer from Chevy which is less than $3.000 off MSRP), but the bottom line is STILL higher than the MSRP of the Chevy I built (and therefore still about $3,000 higher than this offer from Chevy), and the Chevy has more tech and standard features.

I personally haven’t compared the two. According to most review magazines I’ve read they state the opposite. And that GM is in trouble of losing its market share. My last new trucks from 01-14 were GMCs mostly because of their great discounts. At least here locally I’m seeing an increasing number of Rams. I generally bought by price. The general quirks of the different brands didn’t bother me. I just bought extended warranty. 

[AngelPhoenix]

9 minutes ago, nards444 said:

 

Ram is still outselling GM as of a month ago.  Whats hurting ram right now and what you said is they are basically running a 4 year old truck, where as the other two have new models out. 

Yeah, probably people getting lots of decently equipped Bighorn 1500's (which are still a pretty good value overall) and lower trim 2500/3500 Cummins. 

 

But for the demographic/market I'm in (high-mid trim do it all daily driver and tow vehicle/general hauler), Ram comes in too pricey with not enough features and Ford (Superduty's) are too hard to get (and also pricer). And the dealers blow you off cause they know they have plenty of people willing to pay MSRP+ for the their HD's. 

[nards444]

11 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

I personally haven’t compared the two. According to most review magazines I’ve read they state the opposite. And that GM is in trouble of losing its market share. My last new trucks from 01-14 were GMCs mostly because of their great discounts. At least here locally I’m seeing an increasing number of Rams. I generally bought by price. The general quirks of the different brands didn’t bother me. I just bought extended warranty. 

 

Ram is still beating GM and been for a short while.  In general I have found GM to be more quality but also outdated and way being in mix of options and colors.  my 2022 is essentially running an enterainment center and dash from 2014.  What hurts Ram is they are running an almost 5 year old platform.  But Ram is generally agreed upon as being more innoative with more options. 

[nards444]

28 minutes ago, AngelPhoenix said:

Wow dude, thanks for this!

 

I am aware of and practicing most of this already, but not all of it. I especially don't tell them how I'm paying until I have the paperwork to sign in front of me. Didn't know about the holdover pricing, or the end of the month thing. 

 

You should make a new post out of this and get it stickied though, really great stuff. 

 

I have 4 different dealers on the hook trying to get the best price out of them. The GM dealers have been the most responsive by far. 

 

 

Mileage may vary from brand to brand, and there might be some specifics that will affect each buyer.  But most of this holds true across the big three of which I have bought multiple cars from over the last 15 years, like 10 of them. 

 

 

The other big thing is to NOT tell them what you want to pay per month, dumbest thing ever.  Tell them my budget is open and you should be putting together your vehicle first.  But dont go in there with 40k or 500 a month to spend looking at  80 denalis.  ON the flip side search for what you want and then get the price, knowing the first number is always the highest.  Sometimes you would be surprised on higher end vehicles come out better specially in leases.  

[AngelPhoenix]

1 minute ago, nards444 said:

 

Ram is still beating GM and been for a short while.  In general I have found GM to be more quality but also outdated and way being in mix of options and colors.  my 2022 is essentially running an enterainment center and dash from 2014.  What hurts Ram is they are running an almost 5 year old platform.  But Ram is generally agreed upon as being more innoative with more options. 

They're not innovating with their powertrain though, that's for sure. Essentially the exact same setup on both the gas and the diesel side for years and years now. I get the idea of don't fix what ain't broke and back when they were Dodge they got hammered on reliability issues but have been doing much better on that front since they broke off into just "Ram". So I get why they don't want to mess with that but especially in the gas side of things (in the HDs) they are falling behind. And the payloads on their half-tons are terrible.

 

I might still be looking at them despite the price if I was in the market for a diesel. But even then, the Duramax just got a power bump and from my research is considered to be the most reliable and lowest maintenance cost out of the big three, and the Powerstroke has the beefcake numbers, so I still feel like they have some catching up to do. 

[AngelPhoenix]

4 minutes ago, nards444 said:

 

 

Mileage may vary from brand to brand, and there might be some specifics that will affect each buyer.  But most of this holds true across the big three of which I have bought multiple cars from over the last 15 years, like 10 of them. 

 

 

The other big thing is to NOT tell them what you want to pay per month, dumbest thing ever.  Tell them my budget is open and you should be putting together your vehicle first.  But dont go in there with 40k or 500 a month to spend looking at  80 denalis.  ON the flip side search for what you want and then get the price, knowing the first number is always the highest.  Sometimes you would be surprised on higher end vehicles come out better specially in leases.  

Right, yeah depending on how things shake out, I will probably just pay cash for the difference in my trade-in, but would also be fine to put less down, finance the rest, and then just pay that off in 6 months or a year. 

 

I'm pretty well settled on a gas engine but haven't totally given up on the idea of diesel yet. Just don't think it's worth it with all the emissions crap and extra maintenance (DEF, regen, block heating before cold starts, frequent fuel filter changes, etc.). That doubled torque number is hard to ignore though. But if I did end up deciding on the diesel, that would make things a bit more complicated for me financially. Still doable, but more touch and go. 

[nards444]

8 minutes ago, AngelPhoenix said:

They're not innovating with their powertrain though, that's for sure. Essentially the exact same setup on both the gas and the diesel side for years and years now. I get the idea of don't fix what ain't broke and back when they were Dodge they got hammered on reliability issues but have been doing much better on that front since they broke off into just "Ram". So I get why they don't want to mess with that but especially in the gas side of things (in the HDs) they are falling behind. And the payloads on their half-tons are terrible.

 

I might still be looking at them despite the price if I was in the market for a diesel. But even then, the Duramax just got a power bump and from my research is considered to be the most reliable and lowest maintenance cost out of the big three, and the Powerstroke has the beefcake numbers, so I still feel like they have some catching up to do. 

 

 

I say this buying way more GMs and Fors then Rams/Dodge so dont think Im a dodge homer.  And its all big picture.  And yeah Ram has some older powertrains, but you really cant argue with cummins in the diesel world.  Second Dodges 5.7 was way ahead in performance for a long time and other are just not catching up and still outperforms GMs 5.3, and has been a reliable platform.  So i guess in a way like you said why fix it, doesnt make sense.  My only issue is they only offered 3.92s for years in gears, which really isnt needed.  

 

After buying all three, I can tell you GMs optioning is by far the worse of three, between colors and option combos it really is the worse.  In many option scenarios on the chevy truck your stuck with getting what color you want but a limit on options or you can get the options but it has to be, red black, or white.  Dodge also has many trim level so things get confusing when comparing apples to apples.  

 

Another thing to keep in mind when these motors get bumps or upgrades.  First thing is a lot of times these motors are already pushing that power and the company undersol it in years past for various reasons.  Second with these diesels or any motor parasitic loss comes into play and as of like 21-22 duramax was actually putting down more power with less HP and torque.  Plus with  trucks another 50-100hp or torque is kind of red herring,  its not always doing something, and transmissions matter as well as other things like rear ends.  This is just marketing at its best and wouldnt get sucked into ford is pushing another 50 torque.  

Edited June 26, 2023 by nards444

[KARNUT]

12 minutes ago, nards444 said:

 

Ram is still beating GM and been for a short while.  In general I have found GM to be more quality but also outdated and way being in mix of options and colors.  my 2022 is essentially running an enterainment center and dash from 2014.  What hurts Ram is they are running an almost 5 year old platform.  But Ram is generally agreed upon as being more innoative with more options. 

I thought the had two styles. The custom is the old model. My brothers latest Ram is a hybrid with air ride. It’s so quiet and comfortable I can’t imagine better. That’s until I drive the TRX. Of course I’m happy with my 02 avalanche. Aside from a few rattles it’s quiet and comfortable too. The rattles I could fix. I’m just not as picky as I used to be. 

[AngelPhoenix]

2 minutes ago, nards444 said:

 

 

I say this buying way more GMs and Fors then Rams/Dodge so dont think Im a dodge homer.  And its all big picture.  And yeah Ram has some older powertrains, but you really cant argue with cummins in the diesel world.  Second Dodges 5.7 was way ahead in performance for a long time and other are just not catching up and still outperforms GMs 5.3, and has been a reliable platform.  So i guess in a way like you said why fix it, doesnt make sense.  My only issue is they only offered 3.92s for years in gears, which really isnt needed.  

 

After buying all three, I can tell you GMs optioning is by far the worse of three, between colors and option combos it really is the worse.  In many option scenarios on the chevy truck your stuck with getting what color you want but a limit on options or you can get the options but it has to be, red black, or white.  Dodge also has many trim level so things get confusing when comparing apples to apples.  

Yeah, the Cummins is rock solid for sure. And I love my 5.7! But they're putting said 5.7 in trucks where unless it's like a 2WD Tradesman the payload stops you from getting anywhere near your max tow for most applications.

 

True about the optioning too but I actually like that GM is sort of forcibly simplified, it kind of streamlines the process for me and I was still able to put together 3 different builds that I really liked. 

 

Trying to build a half-ton or HD Ram Bighorn is exasperating, there's so many options that it's tough to tell whether you're actually getting what you want, and if it's a good value or not.