Flex fuel? Propane? Hybrid?

[lrymal]

As of this typing, rumors are flying on the news media about a $100/barrel scenario for crude oil. Much of it is coming because of the increasing demands of Chinese and India transportation. Apparently, they have "just discovered" cars and the automotive industry has exploded over there.

 

That means for us, our petroleum costs may increase in such a way that we no longer have cheap gasoline in the near distant future. Try $4.00/gallon gasoline. Let's hope this message is dead wrong and we look at it in three years, we'll just laugh........

 

In the meantime, what alternative do we have? HYBRID, HYDROGEN? Why not existing technologies that has been around, such as PROPANE? GM and Ford both offer flex-fuel vehicles which can use gasoline and propane.

 

So, my question, why don't we flock toward propane?

 

http://www.npga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=624

[Bill55AZ]

Propane is made by distilling oil, it was first found to be what evaporates off of gasoline if left in the open air. So Propane is hardly an alternative to gasoline, as it takes gasoline to make it.

Any fuel made from crude oil is not going to be an answer to the problem.

Hydrogen is plentiful, but it takes more energy seperating it out from water that it provides to run our cars, so it has a negative return. Only when the energy used is really, really cheap will H2 become economically feasible. Iceland is looking into it since they have lots of nearly free geothermal energy, but it would only be enough to serve their own needs.

Hydrogen may be the ultimate answer, but don't plan on it happening any time soon.

[mudbug660]

What about the possibility of natural gas? And what would be the mpg rating of these alternative fuels.

[Bill55AZ]

It wasn't that long ago that almost all NG was just burned off at the wells. It isn't as portable as oil, takes special compressors to liquify it, then it has to be transported to point of use. It is favored as heating fuel for homes and for combined cycle electric power plants, probably not enough left over for a lot of cars.

[mudbug660]

alot of the wells that had natural gas are capped off and still have pressure. Natural gas is still widely available in many areas so I still don't see why they don't research it more unless the production cost exceeds that of gasoline.

[Wingnut]

I'm still waiting on my freakin' flying car. They've been promising us those for decades.

[snoman]

alot of the wells that had natural gas are capped off and still have pressure.  Natural gas is still widely available in many areas so I still don't see why they don't research it more unless the production cost exceeds that of gasoline.

 

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We import more natural gas than we produce and there are plans to import it on even a larger scale with liquidifaction plants being built overseas. The long term answer lies in better use of the fuels we have and more efficent transportation. The days of 12 mpg SUV's must end as daily commuters. We need to also cut back some on the 10's of thousands or daily aircraft flights too instead of adding more to them. I am not a tree hugger but I can read the writting on the wall. SUV's keep getting bigger and heavier while they need to get smaller and lighter and they need to raise MPG standards and close loopholes that let some SUV's slip through. Propane as a motor fuel does hold promise as it burns very clean without emmison controls and it has a very high octane rating which allows the use of very high compression ratios (12 or 13 to 1) for better power and thermodynamic effeciency. While it is true that there is less heat/energy content in a gallon of propane this can be offest by higher efficencies. Also propane futures in trading have changed less than 10 % in last 6 months while gasoline and diesel futures have climbed 25 to 35% and will go higher. I have a few V8 powered 4x4's but they are not daily commuters I use 4 cyl vehicals for that. I have a old 79 J20 truck that I am going to restore to like new and I am planning to remove the V8 and install a rebuilt 6cyl in its place and I am also considering making it a propane only vehical with very high compression. Right now gasoline futures for May 05 are $1.74/gal and $1.69 for diesel and $.91 for propane and all except propane (propane is flat) raises even more this summer by another 5 to 10 cents or more a gallon than these prices are before distrubtion and taxes. We have a 300 to 500 year supply of coal (the largest in the world) in proven reserves and may have a lot more yet. Power plants need to stop using natural gas in new plants and develop clean coal burning technologies and save natural gas for home heating and such but current admin is freindly to big oil that controls natural gas too and not freindly with coal that big oil does not control. We do not need to all drive little rice boxes but we do not need big gas hogs either and need to be somewhere in the middle. Only two major countries that use more oil than they produce and the first and worst is the US which currently uses more than twice as much oil as it produces and next is China which uses about 30% more than it makes but imports only 1/3 of what US does. All other major countries make more than they use. One might argue that tapping Alaskan wilderness is that answer but it is not because its know reserves would supply the US demand for about 6 months and at peak production in 5 to 7 year from now it might supply 1% of US demand for 20 years and that 1% would be far easier to gain through conservation. Enough of the soap box.

[Bill55AZ]

agree, snoman, we need to use less, conserve what we have first, then worry about new forms of energy. Nuclear Power is part of the answer, that would save a lot of carbon based fuels that could be modified to use in our cars.

[snoman]

agree, snoman, we need to use less, conserve what we have first, then worry about new forms of energy.  Nuclear Power is part of the answer, that would save a lot of carbon based fuels that could be modified to use in our cars.

 

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I agree on the Nuclear thing too. We need to have more of those power plants because they are the least damaging to enviroment if radiation is controlled properly.

[willieboy]

I don't see what the problem is with Ethanol. It is a renewable resource; we can grow corn forever. Heck, there are Nebraska farmers being paid to not plant corn so the food market does not get flooded. Lets put these guys to work growing fuel. How about plant oils? Hemp seed oil is another renewable resource that are farmers could grow for us. Lots of renewable, not alot of effort trying to develop it.

[snoman]

I don't see what the problem is with Ethanol.  It is a renewable resource; we can grow corn forever.  Heck, there are Nebraska farmers being paid to not plant corn so the food market does not get flooded.  Lets put these guys to work growing fuel.  How about plant oils?  Hemp seed oil is another renewable resource that are farmers could grow for us.  Lots of renewable, not alot of effort trying to develop it.

 

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Realitically there is not enough availble for a long term solution. There are more mouth to feed every year and more farm land going to build houses on. It will never be much more than a limited suppliment at current consumption levels of motor fuel plus it takes fuel to make it too. The demand needs to be controlled first then alternatives found.

[mjwencl]

When you have a moment read this article. Sort of an eye opener.

 

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

[jhm]

Remember back in the early 70's (looong time ago!) there was the urban legend about the guy who had a design for a carburetor that would allow a car to get around 100 mpg, but he was being paid off by the oil companies not to allow it to be mass produced. Now 30 some odd years later there are cars, and not just hybrids, getting 40+. I think that is where we have to keep going, improving efficiency. The age of driving the 4wd V8 ext cab to get a loaf of bread or 6 pak (guilty) will end sooner than later. It ain't like oil prices are going to start dropping with more countries industrializing.

[snoman]

When you have a moment read this article. Sort of an eye opener.

 

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

 

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Interesting article. I have read for governement source that the US will import 80% of it oil by 2020 or sooner and over 90% by 2030 if thing do not change now. Last I heard the middle east has about a 35 to 40 year supply on the average at current levels of pumping and they want to throttle back more long term to get up to 75 years or more of revenue out of them. Ignoring the problem like most do will not make it go away. It is here to stay and will only get worse and you can adapt to it or ignore it as the choice is the end users.

[macifre]

I think that the magic answer is still far far away. We do have options. We can drive slower, carpool, change our driving habits to more efficient ones etc etc. At last I can see interest in diesel, a power source that europeans have evolutionized recently. In my country diesel is widely available and 20% cheaper than gas. Engines get 10 - 30% more MPG while producing less carbon monoxide. I really think that diesel is our closest option. We have 6second 0-60 diesel powered cars, torque churning diesel trucks. I have heard about an "eco-diesel" being used and developed further in south america.

Why is it that americans don´t like diesels? I am plenty sure that if diesel would be widely available and that if the duramax diesel would be a no-cost option in the Silverado/Sierra line 90% of buyers would opt for the diesel motor. What do you guys think?