For you train guys

Shaners · October 11, 2002

For those of you who don't know, I work for GE at the Locomotive Diesel engine plant. We had an open house last weekend and I had this pic taken of myself and the family in front of two AC4400, 16 cyl EFI diesels.

I'm sorry about the quality, but I took a digital pic of the photograph to post here...

Shaners · October 11, 2002

Also for the West Coast guys... I think the fifth 12 cyl. EFI diesel has now shipped for the Washington State Ferries!!!

sincityZ71 · October 12, 2002

With a shoehorn and a little grease I ought to be able to squezze that under the hood...lol

CMNTMXR81 · October 14, 2002

I could've taken some pictures of EMD's "tricks" but if I did, I'd be sitting in jail right now.

When I toured the plant, I specifically had to sign a waiver not to release any info of the cool s*%t I was about to see and my camera was confiscated. Wanna know why?

Here's the quote;

Our competitor at GE which is plagued withg durability problems with their 4 stroke diesels have been sending rogues in to our plants to obtain information on how our 4 stroke diesels are so reliable and powerful. Inability to follow these rules will result in prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.

I'll just say, 8,000?? What they had back in the dyno was shaking the ground nearly 200 yards away!

On a side note, are those refurbished 4,400hp units that GE promised to replace with the 6,100hp versions when they came available? GE did that in order to land huge orders with U.P.

Shaners · October 14, 2002

I'm not allowed to have cameras at work either... That is why I posted a picture of a photo. Every person that attended the open house had to be registered with security 2 weeks in advance!!!

I agree that the AC6000 was not a very reliable engine for the money. However some of them are out there and running very well. The 7FDL in the picture has been the workhorse GE diesel for decades. However it will only be available to a limited marketplace when the new emissions laws take effect.

Our replacement engine for the 4400 is up and running and seems to be very powerful and has very few reliabillity issues. We just pulled one out of the powerhouse in Erie that underwent extensive testing (including full throttle/full load testing for extended days/weeks). It looked very good when it was returned.

All five testcells are being updated and the shop and assembly line are tooled and ready to go.

That quote from EMD is interesting, and I'm sure we have some inside info... but at this point in time, I don't think there is much concern. Our loaded schedule for 2003 is over 1500 engines with almost 1/2 of them being new units.

GM has had EMD on the "chopping block" (for sale) for quite some time now. There has been rumor of GE wanting to buy that unit of GM, but the head of this division of GE would "not comment" on it. Of course the purchase would never be approved by the FEDS because that would not allow for competition.

However GE has aquired WabTec which does alot of EMD overhaul work. We have been looking at making some EMD parts in our facility. Whether that will happen is to be seen later, but there have been some EMD turbos and power assemblies laying around from time to time.

CMNTMXR81 · October 15, 2002

When you want the best, you buy the best.

I remember when UP was looking into buying AC4400CW's, GE was delaying their introduction of the AC6000CW's (for whatever reasons) and to clinch the deal, GE said they'd retrofit the AC4400's with the new 6000hp engine, when it became available if UP bought now.

UP not being stupid snapped up that deal...complete new, more powerful engines in their "hot freight" power units...who'd pass that up.

Anyway, GM has also had Hughes (owner of DirecTV) on the chopping block for some time too (which the EchoStar/Hughes buyout just got tanked by the FTC)! It has more to do with GM trying to pare costs than eliminated bad subsidiaries. I'd be willing to bet that if GE transportation tried to buy EMD, there'd be a huge FTC inquiry into it as it'd make one large provider of power units therefore creating a monopoly. This based on the fact that each unit has roughly 50% of the market. I have a feeling the FTC would give a big "NO" to GE anyway.

hogger999 · October 15, 2002

After getting to run some of the newer AC4400s we have I've really gotten to like them. To bad we are not allowed to use them as a lead unit anymore do to electrical cabinet fires.

Sure would be nice to have some new EMD MAC'c come our way.

CMNTMXR81 · October 15, 2002

BNSF doesn't have 90MAC's on "hot freight" setups? I could've swore they had both 70MAC's and 90MAC's.

hogger999 · October 15, 2002

Not where I work they don't. We don't get any "Z" trains here. Only coal, unit, mixed freight and one "priority intermodel"

I did come across an old SD75 Sante Flush a while back.

CMNTMXR81 · October 15, 2002

I had figured you were on the mainline as you come here to Bedford Park.

Shaners · October 15, 2002

I remember when UP was looking into buying AC4400CW's, GE was delaying their introduction of the AC6000CW's (for whatever reasons) and to clinch the deal, GE said they'd retrofit the AC4400's with the new 6000hp engine, when it became available if UP bought now.

UP not being stupid snapped up that deal...complete new, more powerful engines in their "hot freight" power units...who'd pass that up.

There is no doubt that UP got hosed on the power. There are approx 150 6000 HP units on the tracks right now but due to reliabillity issues, most railroads were cut a deal on new 4400's instead of retrofitting the other units with the 6000 HP motor. The majority of the intial failures with that motor were connecting rod and bearing failures. I think that the current fix is to change out all 16 rods every year (at our expense). We have "loaner engines" that we deliver to the RR's when we have to do warranty or FMI's.

The new teir 2 emissions engines we are building and testing will be a 12 cyl that should outpower and be more fuel efficient than the current 7FDL 4400.

I don't know what changes will be done to the locomotive or traction motors though, because I just work in the engine plant.

One of the EMD turbos we had in the shop was disassembled, and I found it to be very interesting. It is a totally different design than ours (maybe because of the 2-stroke engine). It is gear drive to a point and then the gear drive is disengaged and it is driven by exhaust gas. I'm guessing that they need to "spool" up a littler faster to get the low end torque numbers up for the 2-stroke.

There is nothing secret about either current design engine (GE or EMD), because anyone can go to a scrap yard and get one....

hogger999 · October 15, 2002

I had figured you were on the mainline as you come here to Bedford Park.

No, I only did that for about 6 months when I didn't have enough seniority to hold my home terminal. I work in West Quincy MO. and go into St. Louis or Burlington IA.

CMNTMXR81 · October 16, 2002

I remember when UP was looking into buying AC4400CW's, GE was delaying their introduction of the AC6000CW's (for whatever reasons) and to clinch the deal, GE said they'd retrofit the AC4400's with the new 6000hp engine, when it became available if UP bought now.

UP not being stupid snapped up that deal...complete new, more powerful engines in their "hot freight" power units...who'd pass that up.

There is no doubt that UP got hosed on the power. There are approx 150 6000 HP units on the tracks right now but due to reliabillity issues, most railroads were cut a deal on new 4400's instead of retrofitting the other units with the 6000 HP motor. The majority of the intial failures with that motor were connecting rod and bearing failures. I think that the current fix is to change out all 16 rods every year (at our expense). We have "loaner engines" that we deliver to the RR's when we have to do warranty or FMI's.

The new teir 2 emissions engines we are building and testing will be a 12 cyl that should outpower and be more fuel efficient than the current 7FDL 4400.

I don't know what changes will be done to the locomotive or traction motors though, because I just work in the engine plant.

One of the EMD turbos we had in the shop was disassembled, and I found it to be very interesting. It is a totally different design than ours (maybe because of the 2-stroke engine). It is gear drive to a point and then the gear drive is disengaged and it is driven by exhaust gas. I'm guessing that they need to "spool" up a littler faster to get the low end torque numbers up for the 2-stroke.

There is nothing secret about either current design engine (GE or EMD), because anyone can go to a scrap yard and get one....

I didn't think they got hosed necessarily. At least if they actually put the 6000hp engines in when they became available which I take from what you're saying wasn't quite the case. I thought the GE 4stroke also had block problems?

GM EMD makes both 2 stroke diesels and 4 stroke's. However there is a completely different process for building each. Both of EMD's 4,000hp and 6,000hp engines are 4 strokes. The 2 strokes are the 3,000+hp engines used in F-series passenger style locomotive's and regular SD's. The SD70 and SD90MAC's get those 4 strokes I mentioned above.

The 2 stroke engine blocks are fabricated steel plated blocks. It's actually cool watching them take these huge sheets of steel weld them into a block, cut the holes for the cylinder packs then do all the precision trimming and crank installation.

Conversely, the 4 stroke engines (which is the affidavit I had to sign for) is a cast engine block, much like the engine in your truck. This they only let me see certain things on the assembly process.

What I'm getting at is, are you sure that turbo wasn't for one of the older 2 stroke 3,000+hp units? Reason I ask is that there shouldn't necessarily be a torque issue with ANY engine from either GE or GM. All the diesel engine has to do is be the generator/alternator. As long as it can spin up to it's governed 3,000 - 3,800rpm limit, it should be able to generate enough juice to turn the traction motors no matter what load is put on it. Especially the A/C locomotive's with their rectifiers are a lot more efficient with the electricity, so not as much is needed per pound as would be a D/C motor. IN which case the 4,000 or 6,000hp EMD motors should'nt have a lack of torque issue necessitating a gear driven turbo at low rpm. Perhaps the reason GM did this was to provide a constant steady flow of boost at lower rpm to keep the engine "tractible" if you know what I mean. Therefore eliminating surging at low speeds.

Just my random ramblings!!!

Hogger, I'm thinking you just don't want to come visit us in Chicago.

Shaners · October 16, 2002

I bet the turbo is from an older 2-stroke motor. I was just surprised at how many gears were inside as opposed to our turbos which are basically a set of vanes and a compresser.

Our 16 cyl 4400 HP engine runs wide open at 1050 RPM.

I don't think the order for the 6000 HP "convertibles" was ever completely finished. I believe that it was most likely finished with some additional AC4400's.

The first few 6000 HP blocks came from Germany as this is a German design engine from MWM. After that I believe Teledyne Castings made the rest of the blocks for us as they make our standard FDL engine block too... The only block failures that I know of are as a result of a broken connecting rod that came out the side of the engine. The original connecting rod on these high HP engines only had 2 bolts holding on the cap. The new rod that is currently being installed in the entire fleet has a 4-bolt cap where the rod bolts onto the crank journal.

hogger999 · October 18, 2002

Even though I feel like Cole Trickle in this convesation- "They just told me to get in and drive, and I could drive"

They older SD70's did have a traction problem at low speeds but that HAS changed in the ones built in the last 3/4 years.

The only complaint I have with the GE's is that it takes them so long to load amps. Once you get a train rolling they have plenty of power but if you are trying to start 120 car train of mixed freight its kind of difficult to be gentle when the engine respondes 3 second after the change in throttle position.

MXR I loved Chicago. I really liked staying downtown and going to Mr. Greeks to eat. Dat place was awesome. What I didn't like was the van drivers that hauled us around up there. I've never been so scared in my life. Once on the Ryan and once on the Stevenson I had two different drivers that weren't sure about where we were going. When they couldn't decide if they should take an exit or go on they would just stop right in the middle of the expressway.

I'm lucky we didn't get rear-ended by someone doing 95 in an HD