Say it ain't so!

plainvanilla · November 16, 2005

The rumors are flying all around that a pending bankruptcy is in the wind for GM.

That would suck.

If it does happen, I would love to see a huge backlash towards the Japanese cars. It seems to me that somebody should be busy trying to change the direction of things pretty darn quick. I know that GM isn't the only auto maker with problems but they seem to be getting kicked around more about it in the press.

What do you guys think will happen or should happen?

BTW, it hacked me off greatly to see them parade around our WWII Vets in a Toyota and Nissan during our cities Vetrans Day Parade all the while our military folks were handing out American flags with "made in China" stamped on them.

Is it just me, or is that stupid?

Wingnut · November 16, 2005

I don't think it's stupid. It's not like the government bought those trucks.

The trucks used in parades (I've been in more than my fair share) are generally owned by somebody involved in whatever group of people they are towing. That means that the crusty old WWII vet from the Marine Corps League that's sitting on the trailer waving his "made in China" American flag owns that Toyota that's pulling him around.

Walk up to a Marine that fought in Korea and tell him that he's un-American for buying a Toyota. I dare you.

GM is having trouble because of outdated business models and a massive retiring workforce...Not because of the Japanese. Competition breeds innovation...And price wars.

But that's just my take on it, your mileage may vary.

plainvanilla · November 16, 2005

I don't think it's stupid. It's not like the government bought those trucks.

The trucks used in parades (I've been in more than my fair share) are generally owned by somebody involved in whatever group of people they are towing. That means that the crusty old WWII vet from the Marine Corps League that's sitting on the trailer waving his "made in China" American flag owns that Toyota that's pulling him around.

Walk up to a Marine that fought in Korea and tell him that he's un-American for buying a Toyota. I dare you.

GM is having trouble because of outdated business models and a massive retiring workforce...Not because of the Japanese. Competition breeds innovation...And price wars.

But that's just my take on it, your mileage may vary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On the contrary, the Japanese vehicles being used to pull the honorable WWII vets were sponsored by the Nissan and Toyota dealerships, I can't tell you what the vets own personally.

In summing up GM's problems, I think you must include pressure from the Japanese auto makers for taking market share, you just can't deny it has had an effect.

Maybe I am "too patriotic"?

SilveradoWV · November 17, 2005

Seems like they are wanting to weasel their way out of payin retirement, healthcare, etc... by filing bankrupt, therefore wiping the slate clean so to speak. Wrong IMO, but there are alot of rich out there just gettin richer no matter what happens to the people that essentially made the company.

Elwood 2000 · November 17, 2005

GM is having trouble because of outdated business models and a massive retiring workforce...

That is a huge problem. You can not have one guy working who is supporting 3 guys who have retired. GM made some huge mistakes in the past regarding union contracts and now it is time to pay the piper.

What will happen?? The US Government will have to bail them out. There are too many people involved. I read a while back that one out of eleven Americans are effected financially by GM, be it retired, employee, supplier, etc. That is a LOT of people!

sincityZ71 · November 17, 2005

What will happen?? The US Government will have to bail them out...
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rephrase that...the US Taxpayer will bail them out, courtesy of the gov't...and the GM executives will get a clean slate...

Elwood 2000 · November 17, 2005

sincity, that is exactly what I meant. The "suits" get a golden parachute and our tax bill goes up.

Wingnut · November 17, 2005

On the contrary, the Japanese vehicles being used to pull the honorable WWII vets were sponsored by the Nissan and Toyota dealerships, I can't tell you what the vets own personally.

In summing up GM's problems, I think you must include pressure from the Japanese auto makers for taking market share, you just can't deny it has had an effect.

Maybe I am "too patriotic"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well then I was wrong about who bought the trucks.

In my opinion, the pressure from the Japanese drives competition, breeds innovation, and helps keeps prices somewhat in check. They're also pretty good trucks, for what they're designed for anyway.

As to being "too patriotic", I'm not sure that's possible, depending on what you view as patriotic.

I'm not sure how I feel about GM's woes concerning how much it takes to support all their retired workers...

On one hand, I'm fairly anti-union (they had their place and time, but that's long gone now), and I'm aware that it's pretty much the union at the root of a lot of GM's problems insofar as what they're obligated to pay out. I don't think an unskilled laboror should be making $20-$25 an hour to put 5 bolts in a dashboard all day. Nor do I think that people should place the sole responsiblilty of their retirements on their employers. I certainly don't. When I retire, my employer will have zippo to say about how much money I have, as I have never counted on them for it. I'm all about personal responsibility.

On the other hand, promises were made, and they're going to have to break them to stay in business. And that's going to hurt a ton of very real, very unhappy people. They're also going to have to cut back on what they're promising current employees. Not to mention, if they go completely under, it will have a massive effect on the worldwide economy. Which is bad for every one of us, not just the people losing their pensions.

It's a tough spot for a lot of companies, and even more people. It's also going to be a train wreck in slow motion to watch play out...And you can bet that the little guy will be the one getting screwed.

Not good.

05Quadrasteer · November 17, 2005

You all have valid points as to why GM has gotten into the financial trouble they are in. Old contracts they must adhere to, promises made, and not keeping up with the competion to know what the customer wants.

I still remember a few years back with GM had a commercial about how they had over 100 models available. I used to laugh at it and say why do you need that many?

On a side note to this whole discussion about promises made. If GM is having trouble with money to pay for the promises made what will our government do to solve the same problem with Social Security? Just thought I woud leave you all with those thoughts.

As a previous member said, we all have to take care of ourselves. Don't count on someone else to ensure you have a retirement program for yourself.

Have a great truckin day.

Bill

SilveradoWV · November 17, 2005

I'd venture to say its alot different than what most of us on here deal with in careers etc... This isnt just with GM, its happening around here in my area alot lately. People give 30+ years of their life to a company, making decent wages, working 40+ hours a week, raising a family, etc... and now they are 60+ years old. 30 or so years of their life for the same company, to get crapped on in 30 seconds, is there no incentive for working that many years for a company? You expect a 60 year old man who has been making $15-$20 an hour at work, then retired, to go out and find another job? Thats all fine but he's not going to find another job making the kind of money he has all his life, he's only done one thing his whole life so its not like he has an abundance of skill or knowledge in other fields to get a job. Most people 30 or below in todays world know we arent going to work that long for a company so we have to do our own planning for retirement, heck we are always looking for another company to go to. Offering retirement, healthcare, etc... is how a company keeps a workforce IMO, if you know up front that when you are finished at a certain company that you are just out on the street, that makes me always look for another place to work. All of this is going on and GM exec's are probably still sitting back counting their millions, laughing, I dont care for it....

plainvanilla · November 17, 2005

In my opinion, the pressure from the Japanese drives competition, breeds innovation, and helps keeps prices somewhat in check. They're also pretty good trucks, for what they're designed for anyway.

As to being "too patriotic", I'm not sure that's possible, depending on what you view as patriotic.

I'm not sure how I feel about GM's woes concerning how much it takes to support all their retired workers...

On one hand, I'm fairly anti-union (they had their place and time, but that's long gone now), and I'm aware that it's pretty much the union at the root of a lot of GM's problems insofar as what they're obligated to pay out. I don't think an unskilled laboror should be making $20-$25 an hour to put 5 bolts in a dashboard all day. Nor do I think that people should place the sole responsiblilty of their retirements on their employers. I certainly don't. When I retire, my employer will have zippo to say about how much money I have, as I have never counted on them for it. I'm all about personal responsibility.

I will have to agree that the quality of the Japanese trucks is not bad at all. They as a whole must have a good product to sell or people would not keep buying them. I know alot of Hondas and Toyotas are assembled here in the US now, but the corporate profits go back across the ocean.

You're also right that the first unions were formed to get workers out of impossible, terrible conditions in the coal mines in WV and Kentucky..nowdays I think they(the unions) have became alot more self-serving. Growing up in WV, I watched as alot of coal from other countries came into America while the coal unions were on strike for some minor contract dispute while my family members sat at home starving and freezing... the union bosses never went hungry while on strike.

Elwood 2000 · November 17, 2005

You guys have touched on several topics that really get under my skin. Instead of getting on my political soapbox, I want you to ask yourselves these questions and then try to answer them yourselves. This is more of an independant thinker thing instead of a post what you think thing to keep public politics out of this.

WHY was it started years ago that you had to have health insurance? Why could you not just go buy health services AS YOU NEED THEM, like a loaf of bread? Remember, the period of time that this took place. Healthcare costs were not as astronomical as they are today.

WHY is it the employers responsibility to provide healthcare coverage for you and your family anyway? He should pay you for your time and that is it. Take insurance money and pass it forward to the employee. Empower him to make his decisions and make him take responsibility if society dictates that we "must" have insurance.

WHY did we need social security in the first place? Shouldn't people be able to take care of themselves? Why do employers and the government have to provide these things? Give the money directly to the employee and let him survive or starve.

Since all these things are in place, I firmly beleive that SS will not exist when I am ready to retire, so I am planning for myself. We have health insurance provided for us, via my wifes job, but we pay $500 per month for it and coverage is "ify" at times.

It is a viscous circle that seems to be spinning out of control instead of keeping in balance.

All this I have just said, put it into relation regarding GM or any other huge company that is forced to provide these things to employees. It just does not pencil out and GM and others need to examine business practices. They tried to keep unions happy, betting on the future. The future is here now and it is time to pay the piper.

PaulieK · November 17, 2005

You guys have touched on several topics that really get under my skin. Instead of getting on my political soapbox, I want you to ask yourselves these questions and then try to answer them yourselves. This is more of an independant thinker thing instead of a post what you think thing to keep public politics out of this.

WHY was it started years ago that you had to have health insurance? Why could you not just go buy health services AS YOU NEED THEM, like a loaf of bread? Remember, the period of time that this took place. Healthcare costs were not as astronomical as they are today.

WHY is it the employers responsibility to provide healthcare coverage for you and your family anyway? He should pay you for your time and that is it. Take insurance money and pass it forward to the employee. Empower him to make his decisions and make him take responsibility if society dictates that we "must" have insurance.

WHY did we need social security in the first place? Shouldn't people be able to take care of themselves? Why do employers and the government have to provide these things? Give the money directly to the employee and let him survive or starve.

Since all these things are in place, I firmly beleive that SS will not exist when I am ready to retire, so I am planning for myself. We have health insurance provided for us, via my wifes job, but we pay $500 per month for it and coverage is "ify" at times.

It is a viscous circle that seems to be spinning out of control instead of keeping in balance.

All this I have just said, put it into relation regarding GM or any other huge company that is forced to provide these things to employees. It just does not pencil out and GM and others need to examine business practices. They tried to keep unions happy, betting on the future. The future is here now and it is time to pay the piper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh Man! This dont look good, Look what is on MSNBC today

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10075026/

Halen5150 · November 17, 2005

Below Ford...GHEY. Wish I had something better to say...

About Social Security...that should be optional if you want to have it taken out. I don't want to wait until I'm in my sixties for all of that cash. There's too many things that I want to buy right NOW.

plainvanilla · November 17, 2005

........WHY was it started years ago that you had to have health insurance? Why could you not just go buy health services AS YOU NEED THEM, like a loaf of bread?........

WHY is it the employers responsibility to provide healthcare coverage for you and your family anyway? He should pay you for your time and that is it. Take insurance money and pass it forward to the employee. Empower him to make his decisions and make him take responsibility if society dictates that we "must" have insurance.

WHY did we need social security in the first place? Shouldn't people be able to take care of themselves? Why do employers and the government have to provide these things? Give the money directly to the employee and let him survive or starve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great questions, on the loaf of bread analogy.. if loaves of bread were needed to survive and to have good health and they all cost about $100 each and then on occasion a loaf might cost $2000, one might look into bread insurance..

But really, health care is so freaking high that one slight illness and you are buried for life in debt. For the most part, I think if there was no such think as health insurance, they are just a middle man between you and your doctor, then we all might be able to afford a doctor visit every now and then.

The system is totally screwed up.

Health care coverage is just a part of a benefit package and that is where the job market drifted to when the cost of medical expenses started to skyrocket. That is what the majority of people look for when considering a job to offer some protection against being in debt for life over an illness. Again, I think the way is used to be 50 years ago was simpler, but that is what is has come to.

And social security...wow,... where to you start with that one...?

"A chicken in every pot" "The great society"...

I am just going to keep my thoughts to myself on that one..

We mostly agree that somewhere along the line it all got screwed up and complicated....the only way you might be able to go back to the way it was is to buy a mountain and move to Idaho...no.. wait.. someone tried that already.