Cummins versus Duramax

QUIKAG · April 13, 2003

I think we know the Allison blows away the Dodge auto, but how are the engines? I love the Duramax, but have also heard really good things about the new HO Cummins. They finally have a 4 speed automatic that can handle the power of the HO Cummins (for how long though. ) Anyway, the pricing on the Dodge's seems to be a few thousand less and I like the looks of them.

Any I commiting sacrilege for wanting a 2500 Dodge?

silverado3500 · April 15, 2003

My image for the perfect truck would be the HO Cummins attached to an Allison 5 speed auto, (an allsion 6 speed would be even better), on a Chevy chassis with either 02 chevy HD styling or 01 Dodge styling. With an optional solid front axle on 4x4 models.

Stepside Z · April 15, 2003

My image for the perfect truck would be the HO Cummins attached to an Allison 5 speed auto, (an allsion 6 speed would be even better), on a Chevy chassis with either 02 chevy HD styling or 01 Dodge styling. With an optional solid front axle on 4x4 models.

I like the idea of the Cummins/Allison combo myself. Given the solid axle option I would be driving a bowtie quick.

HillHound · April 15, 2003

I keep hearing stuff about GM offering SFA on their 2500HD and 3500 series. Is it true? I haven't heard of any major problems with the current IFA? ???

Kansas Kid · April 15, 2003

GM has been using IFS for over 10 years now and you are telling me that you have never heard any of the common complaints about it? The components have changed over the years, but the same types of problems are still around.

As for GM offering a SFA on the 2500HD/3500 trucks, I don't see it happening. I haven't spent a whole lot of time looking at the front frame section on the new pickups, but I am willing to bet a complete redesign would need to be done in order to allow them to use a SFA. Besides, GM is (and has been for a long time) catering to the people who want a car like ride and handling over shear strenght and durability.

I haven't driven the HO Cummins when backed by the automatic, but the one I drove with a 6-speed had incredible low end torque. I have always liked the Cummins, but this version with the common rail injection was really impressive. Definitely worth a look if you are wanting a diesel. Combine that with a strong drivetrain (larger t-case then GM, same rear axle) and the SFA up front, I really think the Dodge can compete with the GM's. The coil spring setup in the front of the Dodges makes their ride on par with the GM's IMO, if that is something you are concerned about. Dodge also uses most of the same parts suppliers as GM, so the quality difference is out the window. I guess it all comes down to what you like best. If it were up to me, I would go with Ford, Dodge, GM in that order concerning 4wd diesel pickups.

CMNTMXR81 · April 15, 2003

You can argue this left, right, up, down, sideways, and any which way you like, I'm one of those "skirts" that likes my IFS ride, thank you very much! And I'll keep it that way. The few hundred pounds I may give up in sheer maximum load bearing capacity on the front end serves me better for the other 90% of the time, my truck gets used as a family vehicle doing family chores.

I'm a person that likes to push things to their limit, you should all know that. I have yet to trailer with my front end! I have yet to load the engine compartment with that gravel like my 5,000lbs in the bed! If I were a contractor and plowed for a living, perhaps this'd be a different story, but it's not. My trailer gets attached to the REAR of the vehicle, the bed is in the REAR of the vehicle and as such, all my important load bearing functions are placed MAJORITY on the REAR! With that being said, I have yet to MAX out my IFS! But I sure know my spine and my teeth as well as my shapely skirt wearing legs love it's smooth comfortable ride!

I got into this argument with a guy who used a SD to tow cars all over the country about the SFA vs. IFS thing. I stopped him in his tracks when I said "I don't trailer in reverse down the interstate!"

I know you'll argue about "weight distribution" hitches/5th wheels, but even still, the MAJORITY of weight is placed over the REAR axle....NOT the front!

HD-Nate · April 15, 2003

I have lurked here long enough and feel its time to take the plunge.

First off, Howdy!

I will add a little bit of my experiences here on this topic.

Please don’t feel offended by my comments but the Dodge truck is the worst selling truck in America, geez even Toyota outsells them,……..there has to be a good reason.

Cummins diesels are GREAT diesels if you want to go that route and its probably because Dodge had nothing to do with it

On the solid axle issue. I owned a ’96 3500series 7.4L GMC with IFS prior to my Duramax, 160k miles with some of rough off road use and pulling a 6k - 12k trailer with zero, none, nada problems, except for a starter that went bad after going through 3 feet of muddy, trashy flood water.

When I chose my Duramax it was between the 350SD Ford and the 2500HD GMC. My brother-in-law who owns a 350SD convinced me to go the GMC route. There are many good reasons why but mostly due to the poor quality of his 2002 SD.

While the diesel is holding up fine (except the injectors had to be replaced), he has gone through two automatics transmissions, one just cracked open under a minor load of about 3000 lbs. The second one, Ford refused to fix since he had just installed a snow plow receiver, he had not even had a chance to push a flake of snow. After 5 weeks and several letters to Ford, they agreed to pay half.

He works construction and has a few buddies with GMC’s/Chevys Duramaxs and they easily out pull him, get better mileage and ride great.

Just my .02 cents worth.

BDBWTE · April 15, 2003

(cracking of the fingers)

Here I go..

I pefer SFA under my trucks. But on the same token and backing CMNT we use our trucks every day and none of our IFS trucks have broken and they are daily in off-road situations at jobsites... So no complaint there..

Cummins vs. DMAX

I like the Cummins a lot and with 30% less rotating mechanical assembly the cummins is a sound motor with ton's and ton's of potential for raw power... The Cummins ISB has proven itself and I've seen what they are capable of..

DMAX a V block high tech...which is not a bad thing just something to keep in mind.. Definate potential for stump pulling power not as much as a Cummins but more than anyone would ever need owning a 3/4 ton truck... And so far so good but I want to see and drive a DMAX in 10 years and see how they are holding up..

As far as stock versus stock with no mods..I would most likely go for the DMAX just because I've yet to pull up next to a 2003 Cummins HO and have it leave me in one of our DMAX's.. I like the over-all quality of the Chevrolet over the Dodge as well.. We own a Dodge and it has been faithfull no problems ( knock on wood) 98 2500HD 4x4 5spd Cummins 24V.. No problems what so ever and it's definately got the diesel sound that a reminescent (sp?) of a Kenworth.. but on the same token there not fast FACTORY... they drive and pull like a diesel, loud, smelly and not fast...

Just my experience and my opinion.. Hope it helps

Kansas Kid · April 15, 2003

CMNTMXR81, why do you have to be so dang argumentative

when someone doesn't think that GM trucks are absolutely

perfect? I would just assume get kicked in the balls then

argue with you over stuff like this.

I simply said that GM uses IFS because they cater their trucks

to those that prefer ride quality and handling over shear strength.

If you look through my post you won't find any mention of the

people who prefer IFS wearing skirts, or anything of that nature.

With your truck having a big block, you will never come

close to maxing out the capacity of your front axle. But since

the original topic was refering to diesel engines, their truck might.

Most of the HD GM trucks are right on their front axle capacity

when equipped with the Duramax. For some people that is no

big deal, but to others it is. If it is unreasonable for me to point

that out, just let me know right now.

You know, if I hadn't seen your posts concerning women in the

Bash section (which I agree with completely) I might actually

think you did wear a skirt since you like to argue so much.

HillHound · April 16, 2003

GM has been using IFS for over 10 years now and you are telling me that you have never heard any of the common complaints about it? The components have changed over the years, but the same types of problems are still around.

Oh I've heard nothing but complaints concerning the supposed negatives of IFS pickups, but very few actual problems. Like CMNT mentioned, alot of it revolves around supposed deficiencies in load bearing capabilities and compromised durability in severe situations (such as offroading).

I followed a thread on another forum some months ago and it turned out a couple of the guys who were negative about IFS didn't even own trailers and had never or rarely driven their pickup offroad. They just felt a truck wasn't a truck if it didn't have SFA, manual tranny and of course the manual 4wd stick on the cab floor.

The reason I laugh at the whole IFS/SFA argument is because many (but not all) of the guys doing the complaining never come close to using their truck in a way that would put their front axle to the test which ever one they have.

QUIKAG · April 16, 2003

Thanks for all the input, this is a good discussion thus far. What I am quickly realizing is that the most I'd realistically tow right now is my Corvette on a flatbed trailer to a roadracing event. That wouldn't even tax the 6.0L motor. Sadly enough, I've only towed my car ONCE up to Oklahoma for a roadracing weekend and the 6.0L jerked my trailer and car around very easily.

So, the IFS/SFA argument is kind of silly to me. Now, I know it's an important factor for people that are interested in pulling very heavy loads, but like most people I haven't really heard of any failures of the IFS.

That argument of the IFS/SFA kind of reminds me of the people who immediately thought the Duramax would be inferior at best because of the aluminum head and iron block. Technology advances and things that didn't work in the past begin to work quite nicely as processes are invented to fix prior weaknesses.

Honestly, the main reason I really want a diesel is for the superior gas mileage, longevitity, and raw torque. My brothers new '03 LT 4x4 fully loaded extended cab duramax/allison truck that I've driven a few times has jaded me pretty bad. For some reason I love that CLATTER!!

HD-Nate · April 16, 2003

What I am quickly realizing is that the most I'd realistically tow right now is my Corvette on a flatbed trailer to a roadracing event. .

Honestly, the main reason I really want a diesel is for the superior gas mileage, longevitity, and raw torque. My brothers new '03 LT 4x4 fully loaded extended cab duramax/allison truck that I've driven a few times has jaded me pretty bad. For some reason I love that CLATTER!!

QuickAG,

That is the main reason why I bought my Duramax also. I drive 70+ miles roundtrip to work everyday.

The wife and I are looking at either a '59 or '60 Corvette. I will haul it shows over 100 miles out. I have my eyes on an enclosed to haul them both the C1 and the C5.

I also own a '98 C5 with a few mods. Do you hang around the Corvetteforum.com any?

CMNTMXR81 · April 16, 2003

CMNTMXR81, why do you have to be so dang argumentative
when someone doesn't think that GM trucks are absolutely

perfect? I would just assume get kicked in the balls then

argue with you over stuff like this.

I simply said that GM uses IFS because they cater their trucks

to those that prefer ride quality and handling over shear strength.

If you look through my post you won't find any mention of the

people who prefer IFS wearing skirts, or anything of that nature.

With your truck having a big block, you will never come

close to maxing out the capacity of your front axle. But since

the original topic was refering to diesel engines, their truck might.

Most of the HD GM trucks are right on their front axle capacity

when equipped with the Duramax. For some people that is no

big deal, but to others it is. If it is unreasonable for me to point

that out, just let me know right now.

You know, if I hadn't seen your posts concerning women in the

Bash section (which I agree with completely) I might actually

think you did wear a skirt since you like to argue so much.

I think Hill said it perfectly!

On top of which, I know pretty much well I can safely say, 95% of GM's current product lineup's physical deficiencies from a service/repair standpoint. I've been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. I've seen sh*t that'd turn you white on trucks that people bring in trying to get GM to cover it under warranty. This kinda qaulifies me to determine what I feel is "junk" or "less than perfect" that GM makes. Is GM perfect? F*ck no! However, I feel they are a lot more on the money than the competition. I'd also like to state for the fact that I have NEVER bashed the ford SD or Dodge lineup saying it was unworthy. (Please correct me if I have somewhere). On top of which, I also see a lot more of the engineering aspect of the "WHY" GM does what they do when we talk with factory engineers and go to GM seminars. Do you do the same?

As I said, please tell me, where in your existence that you have PHYSICALLY loaded the front suspension of all three trucks to their rated maximum amount, and then done a tally as to who can support the most. I haven't personally either. But then again, that falls upon my last post, that for 99% of what I use my truck for, my front axle will NEVER even come close to what GM rates it for, let alone the few hundred "supposed" extra pounds all the SFA crowd crow over as an advantage. I feel that the majority of the owners of said 2500HD's and 3500's fit right into the same boat as me. Some may haul more, some may haul less, but regardless, I have yet to come across one owner in our service lanes that have maxed out their front suspension. In return, they all do rave, much like myself about how much better the Chevy rides and handles compared to their old SFA equipped Dodge or ford which they also NEVER maxed out.

Example:

I suppose if I told you about the Allison that came through a few weeks ago that literally melted the internals, you'd probaly make a point to say "well, Allison's are prone to internal trouble!" Of all the Allison's out on the road, this was one of the few (I can count how many have come back on both my hands) that has come back. Later we found out the trailer the truck was towing (a D-Max BTW) was probably in the neighborhood of 25,000lbs...just the trailer! YOu gotta expect some problems to pop up when you push things Waayyyy past their design limits! But Allison makes crap transmissions! Once again, this was an example!

GM makes #### good products, GM products despite dealer horror stories are pretty well backed (Can't say that about another manufacturer!!), and 9 times out of 10, by what I consider performance criteria...they beat their competition (stock of course). GM isn't perfect, but perfect enough for me and sure as #### a lot better to ME than my other choices!

Take it for what it's worth. I used to stand behind GM products daily!

QUIKAG · April 16, 2003

Okay guys, I went and testdrove the Cummins with the 48RE automatic. It was a pretty #### nice truck. It was the Lariat, so it had the interior goodies, leather, wood, blah, blah. It had the HO Cummins strapped, as I just said, with the 48RE transmission. It shifted nicely but firmly. The power was good, I guess 305hp and 555lb/ft of torque will move you down the road. The diesel was very quiet, noticeability quieter than my brother's Duramax. Not a world of difference, but you could tell.

The truck stickered at $39k and they offered it to me for $31k. I almost bit, but they wouldn't come close to what I wanted on my trade-in. So, GM I stay for now.

HD-Nate,

Hey there! Yeah, I have the diesel bug pretty bad. I'm also on Corvetteforum, I have around 2100 posts, but don't spent a whole lot of time on their lately as I've been busy with work until today. I'm a CPA that does quite a bit of tax work, so life has sucked for the past few months.

I need a diesel.

odoh · April 16, 2003

quote - "Honestly, the main reason I really want a diesel is for the superior gas mileage, longevitity, and raw torque. My brothers new '03 LT 4x4 fully loaded extended cab duramax/allison truck that I've driven a few times has jaded me pretty bad. For some reason I love that CLATTER!! " Unquote.

Sounds good to me ~ precisely the reasons I purchased mine :thumb: