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OCI, not when but why?

Grumpy Bear
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diyer2 Senior Enthusiast

diyer2

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IF,IF,IF. If they cared about quality instead of profit and this applies to any company, what a concept. 

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diyer2
diyer2

Had to do it. 😀

OnTheReel
OnTheReel

I was talking to a guy who swears Amsoil in his transmission stopped the slip yoke on the driveshaft from binding and thumping. The slip yoke is bolted to a flange on the back of the transfer case so

Grumpy Bear
Grumpy Bear

I'd say Geeks' video validated every thing I've ever said. Guess it just needed to be said by someone else. I'm good with that.   

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Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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https://precisionlubrication.com/articles/oil-filter-efficiency/

 

On 6/19/2026 at 9:23 AM, Atlas said:

@Grumpy Bear the conclusion from your post about doubling engine life has me curious. Are we literally talking an expected life of 250,000 miles potentially becomes 500,000 miles with a step up in filtration for fresh oil at "the oil factory" when it's bottled? I know you said that's a single variable among many, but, that's significant if the implication extends that far into a real world use case. I would think the oil marketing folks would really eat that up and make it known.

 

For them it is a problem of $$$$ and compliance. To cover both they have to lie from the heart. 

 

Government wants low waste oil numbers so the bar needs to be very low on contamination to met that requirement. 

 

Consumer wants cheap maintenance (perceived cost). Again requiring a low bar. 

 

OEM wants high margins at a cost effective warranty rate and lots of repeat customers. More low bar. 

 

Filter manufacture wants the same thing the OEM wants. See the pattern?

 

Consumers are fickle and also want perfection requiring a HIGH bar. Inconsistent with all of the above.

 

Consumers can be, when the put their minds to it, inquisitive, love winning arguments which requires some useful information to be available to support them. And this is where it gets sticky and the lies begin. 

 

Information needs a solid well grounded point of reference if we are to compare in a useful way. There is a standard for this.  ISO 4548-12. This standard sets the particle size at a specific Beta ratio and darn few are faithful to its intent. 

 

If they don't state the test method they change the particle size or the Beta ratio to hit a perceived favorable standard. They obscure the information in a way as to prevent direct comparisons leaving the consumer with one method. UOA's with an ISO 4406 test result. Pricey and not allot of labs willing to do the work. Lobby work happens everywhere, not just at the seat of government. 

 

 

 

Edited by Grumpy Bear
KARNUT Senior Enthusiast

KARNUT

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Posted

It isn’t all that bad in the world with purchasing power versus quality. My first car had just basic equipment. My oil choice was conventional oil. The life expectancy was around 100K miles. During that time you could expect to change all the accessories. Today with inflation you can buy the equivalent. It comes fully loaded with 4 doors. The life expectancy passes 100K miles replacing no accessories. If reaching that milestone is your goal you simply follow the recommended service intervals. If you want more miles simply do more maintenance. When in doubt you can check the internet or YouTube for information. The selling of any product hasn’t changed since the beginning of time. The power of the buyer has. The price of the product hasn’t changed much with inflation. The buying public wants more. Competition and the buying public has put the sellers in a box. The greed is on both sides. You can still get more for less. You just have to do with less. That used to be popular. The buying public has changed . It’s the sellers that are trying to keep up. As Grumpy tries to inform the readers in this case with maintenance. If you want more. More effort is required. That information wasn’t available this easily just a few years ago. I believe the public has more power. Getting information is easier.

Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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13 hours ago, KARNUT said:

It isn’t all that bad in the world with purchasing power versus quality. My first car had just basic equipment. My oil choice was conventional oil. The life expectancy was around 100K miles. During that time you could expect to change all the accessories. Today with inflation you can buy the equivalent. It comes fully loaded with 4 doors. The life expectancy passes 100K miles replacing no accessories. If reaching that milestone is your goal you simply follow the recommended service intervals. If you want more miles simply do more maintenance. When in doubt you can check the internet or YouTube for information. The selling of any product hasn’t changed since the beginning of time. The power of the buyer has. The price of the product hasn’t changed much with inflation. The buying public wants more. Competition and the buying public has put the sellers in a box. The greed is on both sides. You can still get more for less. You just have to do with less. That used to be popular. The buying public has changed . It’s the sellers that are trying to keep up. As Grumpy tries to inform the readers in this case with maintenance. If you want more. More effort is required. That information wasn’t available this easily just a few years ago. I believe the public has more power. Getting information is easier.

 

I don't think so. 😏

Cars? Our experience will diverge there as well. I was buying cars with 200K (1970's) when I started and quite a few were pretty solid cars. (My early stuff was 1964 to 1968)  Some stinkers but not the dismal picture painted above. Now that said, yes, a dealer wouldn't talk to you if your car had more than 60K on the clock and lot cars were 60K or less except the back row where 100-120K was the auction bought for dirt for us poor losers. Kids in my county were not allowed to wear long pants if they couldn't rebuild and repair every part of that beast. 

 

I will agree that many parts are now better. Alternators and charging systems are an envy. But I replaced few water pumps or power steering pumps then. Rebuilt carburetors but replaced few. Mufflers are another place of OEM improvement. Stainless? We didn't have no stink'n stainless. :crackup:

 

As long as humans are in charge of governance this $$$$ situation will not improve. 

 

The purchasing power of a dollar in 1955 is significantly higher than in 2025, meaning that a dollar could buy more goods and services in 1955 compared to 2025 due to inflation over the years. For example, what you could buy for $1 in 1955 would require approximately $10.50 in 2025.

www.calculator.net.ico Calculator.netwww.inflationtool.com.ico inflationtool.com
 

Comparison of Purchasing Power: 1955 vs 2025

The purchasing power of a dollar has changed significantly from 1955 to 2025 due to inflation. Below is a breakdown of how much more money is needed in 2025 to match the buying power of a dollar in 1955.

Purchasing Power Overview

Year Equivalent Value of $1 in 1955
1955 $1.00
2025 $10.50

Key Points

  • Inflation Impact: The value of money decreases over time due to inflation, meaning that the same amount of money buys fewer goods and services in the future.

  • Example of Inflation: What could be purchased for $1 in 1955 would require approximately $10.50 in 2025. This illustrates how inflation has eroded the purchasing power of the dollar over the decades.

Understanding these changes in purchasing power is crucial for financial planning and assessing economic conditions over time.

Edited by Grumpy Bear
Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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My post above is the direct reason for my outsized interest in keeping what I have for as long as possible. My memory isn't as short as some. 

KARNUT Senior Enthusiast

KARNUT

Posted
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58 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

My post above is the direct reason for my outsized interest in keeping what I have for as long as possible. My memory isn't as short as some. 

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I didn’t experience or know anyone who had a decent car after 100K miles in the 60s through the 80s that were daily commuter vehicles. Unless they were collector vehicles. Of course things cost more due to inflation. But we also make more money. The biggest money drains these days are things people think they need today versus what we require back in the day. Like cell phones and internet as examples. Another example is where you live. Cost of living varies from state to state. I would need twice the money to live in NJ vs Texas in retirement. The car you recently purchased was less than my first car with inflation at 3000$ in 1973. I didn’t have air, electric windows, cruise etc. Purchasing power is equivalent, you just have to do the research. 

Grumpy Bear Senior Enthusiast

Grumpy Bear

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Of course things cost more due to inflation. But we also make more money.

 

Point of the post sir was that while both wages and cost are rising EVERYWHERE; the cost is rising faster EVERYWHERE than the ability to buy EVERYWHERE. We're not going down the location rabbit hole. I'm aware of what economic migration is. I've lived in four states including Texas.

 

It's what "Purchasing Power" means.

 

I'm not telling you what I think. I'm telling what the government, your government, data shows.

 

It wasn't an argument. It wasn't a suggestion. It was a statement of FACT. You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion. Your not entitled to your own facts. If you and I were, they wouldn't be facts. 

 

fact /făkt/
 

noun

  1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences.
    "an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy."
  2. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed.
    "Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact."
  3. A real occurrence; an event.
    "had to prove the facts of the case."
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik
 
If you'd like to disagree call your Senator or Representative and let him know his departments are in error. But you and I? We are not doing this. 
Edited by Grumpy Bear
KARNUT Senior Enthusiast

KARNUT

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

 

Point of the post sir was that while both wages and cost are rising EVERYWHERE; the cost is rising faster EVERYWHERE than the ability to buy EVERYWHERE. We're not going down the location rabbit hole. I'm aware of what economic migration is. I've lived in four states including Texas.

 

It's what "Purchasing Power" means.

 

I'm not telling you what I think. I'm telling what the government, your government, data shows.

 

It wasn't an argument. It wasn't a suggestion. It was a statement of FACT. You are absolutely entitled to your own opinion. Your not entitled to your own facts. If you and I were, they wouldn't be facts. 

 

fact /făkt/
 

noun

  1. Knowledge or information based on real occurrences.
    "an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy."
  2. Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed.
    "Genetic engineering is now a fact. That Chaucer was a real person is an undisputed fact."
  3. A real occurrence; an event.
    "had to prove the facts of the case."
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik
 
If you'd like to disagree call your Senator or Representative and let him know his departments are in error. But you and I? We are not doing this. 

I’ve own several successful businesses. I’ve bought homes and lived in different states. I’d witness several generations buy homes and survive in different economic circumstances. You get awful sippy when people have different experiences than you do. You live a life. I’ve lived a life. It seems our experience has been different. You can point out generalized statistics. Some people learn how to thrive when the odds are against them. Living in different states does make a difference in a persons quality of life and economic outcomes and opportunities. That’s a fact Jack. It’s my truth, my life. Hard work and long hours the right environment made my families life easier. And yes moving to a different state increased the odds of that happening. Stats are generalized. People who thrive don’t make excuses. They beat the odds. Others get mad and point to those statistics. I guess that’s you. My post pointed out how you helped people beat the odds. Somehow your panties got in a wad. Go figure. 

KARNUT Senior Enthusiast

KARNUT

Posted
Posted

IMG_0548.thumb.png.ca48f972e6d324c4ecec3a8ec6b0065c.png

6 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

You want proof, Grumpy man?

 

IMG_0552.png

KARNUT Senior Enthusiast

KARNUT

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, KARNUT said:

Ok Grumpy I’ll leave you to it. Have a nice day.

Oops I did leave one stat out, pay. High pay for an equipment operator in 1974 was 5$ per hour. Today it’s 25-45$ per hour. Specialties and unions pays are higher. Now I’ll leave you to it.

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    • Grumpy Bear
      OCI, not when but why?

      By Grumpy Bear · Posted

      Unless you are using a bypass filer system with a Beta of 1000 at 2 micron the commercial filters we have access to, even the very best of them, are poor at the 5 to 10 micron range the typical UOA test can 'see'. Point is there are some truly awful filters being sold A 45 micron Beta 75 filter is what Dyson used to call a screen door on a submarine. That leaves wear metals disconnected from filtration unless particulates are larger than the test can 'see' and yet captured by the filter...which is its job. If that is true then you have a major issue screaming at you.    The graph isn't mine. It belongs to GM and their study on this area. I looked up those studies and provided those SAE tech paper addresses multiple times. Machinery Lubrication displayed it and confirmed it. So if you have doubts about the study you'll have to take it up with GM Engineering. Just like you would have to take up a difference in opinion about the meaning a word with Webster or the length of on inch with the National Institute of Standards and Technology.      Most manuals have two schedules. "Normal Service" and "Severe Service". On it's face it tells you that oil in severe service is more highly stressed and doesn't "Last as Long". The item to bore in on is LAST...what does that mean?    It's the same question one asks about how long to toast bread. What are the inputs? Bread type? Wattage of the toaster? Distance from the elements? What is your preferred level of done?    So lets paint this with a broader brush. Oil is made up of the base and the additive package. The first is altered by heat and oxygen and later is sacrificial with a finite life subject to inputs toward that end. Resistance and supply.    It is the reason an OEM's OCI's are determined by 1.) the specifications of the recommended lubricant and 2.) risk management toward the bottom line. Those lubricants are also subject to cost effectiveness for the OEM.    There is a tendency for most people to believe that the OEM recommended oil rest on the top shelf and that anything other is lesser than. Truth is there are more oils on higher shelves than those on the lower shelf below the OEM's. They make that choice on COST TO THE OEM. Testing is incidental to the margin.    GM makes MONEY, the car/truck is a TOOL to leverage MONEY. Insert whatever car brand you like. Until you forking over a million plus COST not quality is the driver. Thus it is by DESIGN the recommended OCI's and oils fall well short of 'best practice protections'. Proof isn't hard to find. GM Ecotec I-4 2400 breather system and cold start PCM tuning has killed more motors and resulted in more litigation for those that used the 'recommended' practice than GM could bear. What was their response? SHORTEN THE OCI. TWICE.    I don't know how long to leave oil in an I don't know how the oil will respond to MY circumstances and because I don't and can't blanket statement or anecdotal evidence my way out of it.....I TEST and FIND the right OCI for the oil I CHOOSE. There is no shortcut but there is blind allegiance. I don't blindly trust anything.    People hear the word 'detergent' and believe that in the context of oil it means the same thing as laundry soap... Only in the most rudimentary way. It's the first additive to give up on you and they are putting less and less with each new API standard. Solvency can be used but it cost. Some unique undisclosed chemistries can be used. Valvoline R & P in example. OEM's haven't an interest in anything they see as limiting market participation. Whatever.         
    • KARNUT
      OCI, not when but why?

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      For some unexplained reason my father wanted a salvage yard. As we were getting the family business off the ground one brother ran the salvage yard. We gathered there when rained out working on pipelines in the eighties to pull parts. Perfectly good running vehicles would come to us simply because they wouldn’t pass emissions inspection. We were able to swap parts and sell some of them. I got a clean old nova with a bad engine. I pulled a perfectly good small block out a Camaro. A father and son project with a rebuilt engine. The son couldn’t get the engine running right. The problem was the spark plugs weren’t gapped. The 90s vehicles probably widened the gap of shade tree do it yourself engine repair. My do it yourself hot rod repair stopped at the 70s. After that my trusted mechanic kept them in running shape. 
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      OCI, not when but why?

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      Are we talking about the same thing, though? The 7 versus 3 wear metals was from Lakespeed's 3.0-specific oil brand comparison test between AcDelco oil and Mobil ESP. The filter remains a constant so whatever excess particles the AcDelco oil is producing aren't being filtered out.   I'm assuming there's a parallel comparison to be made; IF the filter can filter down those particles, engine life increases, and your graph makes the case that a better filter (lower micron rating) can increase engine life. Introducing fewer particles AND filtering those particles with higher efficiency is the best of all worlds. Good oil, good filter.   Where we may disagree is the "baseline relative engine life". I'm more apt to believe the base engine life value is 200k+ on very average oil and filters, "bulk oil of unknown brand and white-label generic fleet-grade filter, Jiffy Lube"   Going from a 10 micron filter to a 5 micron filter should boost a base 200k to 275k in a vacuum as a single factor alone.   Here's the whatabout: How does regularly changing the oil and filter ahead of recommended schedule influence baseline engine life? Most people aren't going to science the heck out of this stuff or ask about Micron ratings, HTHS, or wear comparison tests at Jiffy Lube. Most of the Jiffy lube techs would say they need to call their tech support line to even try to get an answer.   --   Because we love anecdotes here, when I was fishing for 4.3 parts at a local yard this weekend, ALL of the 4.3 vehicles had well over 200k. I love looking at odometers of junked vehicles. How far did THIS go before landing at the crusher? The ones that still had engines weren't seized. None of them were vehicles I'd consider were Amsoil queens, in fact most of them had some kind of service cling-sticker in the corner of the windshield indicating it probably had very average maintenance services. Even the fresh parts rigs- I'm not sure taking an S/T series to 400k has much value considering the running value of those vehicles was probably somewhere around $1,000. 25+ years is a good run on time alone.   The intake manifold I salvaged had clean and bright pool areas. As expected, I found the fuel lines in the manifold rubbed through, just like mine. I'm guessing the lines on that donor truck started leaking, the truck started running rough, and its owner said that's enough I'm unwilling or can't take it out of service for several days, or spend $1000+ to repair it at a shop, it's simply time for a newer more reliable vehicle (or, more than likely, this is the 2nd, 3rd time this has happened in the truck's lifetime). While I don't count on my Blazer for reliability, the thought of giving it away for parts at certain points during my adventure, and being mentally free from its needs has has crossed my mind. I'd be losing $1500 or so, but I can only make more money; not time.

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