E85 Economics

[jhbrennan]

I don't understand this at all - I know E85 is highly subsidized and the true cost without subsidies would put the price per gallon comparable, if not higher, than gasoline. Yesterday morning I filled up with E85 at the local Conoco station at $2.399 gallon - the economics versus drop in mpg work for me at this price. Driving home last night, I went by the same station and E85 was now $2.759. So corn or oil must have gone up 15% in 8 hours time?? Also, if gas prices go up 10%, shouldn't E85 only go 1.5%, assuming of course corn prices stay constant?

 

 

Looks like it's back to gasoline for me.

[Mikeee]

The price of corn has double since last year.

 

Also, why do we take a valuable food source and convert it into fuel?

 

At the rate that zucchini grows, someone somewhere should have found a way to feed the hungry of the world AND still have some left over for fuel.

[walbern1]

This is exactly why ethanol will never be a viable, economically, option. We are using a food source to produce fuel. Without the subsidies the industry would surely fail as nobody is going to spend more on E85 just to be "Green". The cost of animal feed has gone through the roof due to ethanol plants paying a premium to secure supply of raw grains. The price of cereal grains used in flour, beer, whiskey has reached an all time high for the same reasons. In south America where they have been using ethanol since the 70's they produce it from sugar cane that is grown specifically for the industry, the difference, you can produce cane based ethanol for $0.22 a liter compared to $0.30 for corn based, that's 75% less. As much as I would like to see us reduce our dependence on oil it is more about the governments reducing their dependence on fuel taxes. 20% to 30% of the price of a gallon of gasoline (40% to 50% in Canada) is tax if that wasn't there or was reduced it would make ethanol completely un-economical.

[cargoone]

This is exactly why ethanol will never be a viable, economically, option. We are using a food source to produce fuel. Without the subsidies the industry would surely fail as nobody is going to spend more on E85 just to be "Green". The cost of animal feed has gone through the roof due to ethanol plants paying a premium to secure supply of raw grains. The price of cereal grains used in flour, beer, whiskey has reached an all time high for the same reasons. In south America where they have been using ethanol since the 70's they produce it from sugar cane that is grown specifically for the industry, the difference, you can produce cane based ethanol for $0.22 a liter compared to $0.30 for corn based, that's 75% less. As much as I would like to see us reduce our dependence on oil it is more about the governments reducing their dependence on fuel taxes. 20% to 30% of the price of a gallon of gasoline (40% to 50% in Canada) is tax if that wasn't there or was reduced it would make ethanol completely un-economical.

 

 

You nailed it !!!!!!!!!! I live in Seattle closest E85 station is Oregon. Plus I would not put that fuel in my tank anyway.

[Mikeee]

The "cost" to bring a gallon of ethanol to the pump is more than a gallon of gasoline.

 

Ethanol has to be trucked from point to point.

The high water content corrodes the pipes.

Sugar cane based ethanol has very little water content.

 

Almost everything we eat, meat related, eats corn in one form or another.

 

Farmers, out West, are planting 10% less corn this year. Wheat is the favored crop. The world market for wheat is at an all time high.

 

In Japan, the newer generation is not eating rice as the older generations did. Wheat based products are the food of choice there. Thus the high wheat prices. Other countries are having the same general tissues.

 

envirowackos, and their lobbyists, are the root causes of the ethanol scam.

 

More of my 2¢

[RyanbabZ71]

I am not saying ethanol is the best solution but I would rather put money into americans pockets over the people over in the middle east. Thats is one of the reasons why I bought my flex fuel Tahoe. Also here in Indiana we have 3 ethanol plats that will be online this yr or next. I have 3 stations pretty close that carries it.

[Mikeee]

I've read that ethanol plants were closing down and/or building plans on hold.

 

ADM seems to be the only company that has a large stake in the wacko scam.

 

Yes, less oil from the Middle East.

Most of our oil is imported from Canada.

Isn't there some new technology for horizontal drilling that is supposed to tap into years with of oil? Pennsylvania?

Drill in Anwar.

Southern Company, in Georgia, just inked a deal with GE to "look into" building 2 more nuke reactors. When the envirowackos get in on this, I doubt I'll ever see them running in my lifetime.

[Darkanion]

I am not saying ethanol is the best solution but I would rather put money into americans pockets over the people over in the middle east. Thats is one of the reasons why I bought my flex fuel Tahoe. Also here in Indiana we have 3 ethanol plats that will be online this yr or next. I have 3 stations pretty close that carries it.

Until they can find a better solution, I would rather NOT see the prices of every-dang-thing-else (food-wise) I buy go up, just to satisfy some environmentalists that "we're doing our part." When you are effectively taking food off our tables, I don't think that's a good "solution."

 

EDIT : So, maybe for some people the economics of the fuel part of the equation work out. When you're paying more for beef, pork, chicken, sodas (they have high fructose corn syrup in 'em), eggs, milk, etc, etc, etc... I just don't see how the overall economics "work."

[RyanbabZ71]

Prices of other goods are not rising ONLy because of corn prices but also because of shipping costs (diesel). There are many factors not just one.

[Darkanion]

Prices of other goods are not rising ONLy because of corn prices but also because of shipping costs (diesel). There are many factors not just one.

Ok... Ethanol plants are buying up all the corn they can get. That drives up feed prices for cattle, chickens, etc.. That drives up the prices of the steaks, eggs, milk, chicken legs, and whatever else.

 

Are there multiple factors involved in food prices going up? Sure! Absolutely there are! BUT, creating a demand for a FOOD PRODUCT to use to FUEL MY TRUCK? AND it's a less effecient (mpg) fuel...!? How does that make ANY sense? I mean, really? How does that make sense?

 

Until they come up with a viable alternative, I'll keep pumping regular-old-gasoline into my truck...

[Mikeee]

Prices of other goods are not rising ONLy because of corn prices but also because of shipping costs (diesel). There are many factors not just one.

True, but corn was waaaaay up before diesel.

[Nick The Great]

I don't know how to tell you this . . . but we aren't going to run out of corn! I'm a huge proponent of ethanol and E-85. I grew up on a farm in Iowa and currently work for an Ag Engineering company. So there's my bias

 

http://www.ethanolacrossamerica.net/pdfs/2...nolFactBook.pdf

 

This is a very good read, although it is obviously from a pro-ethanol group.

 

In 2006, U.S. corn farmers produced a near record 10.74

billion bushels of corn. Of that, 1.8 billion bushels went to

the production of ethanol and co-product

 

A bushel of corn used in the fuel

ethanol process produces 1.6 pounds of corn oil, 10.9

pounds of high protein feed (distillers dried grains, or

DDG), 2.6 pounds of corn meal, and 31.5 pounds of starch

that can be converted to beverages or sweeteners, or

used to produce 2.5 gallons of ethanol

 

But at the end of the day, ethanol cannot and will not replace fossil fuels. It may help, or be a stepping stone to something else. Personally I am all for drilling in ANWR and in North Dakota or wherever that 'new' supply is. Right now the oil companies have us over the barrel and we can do nothing but grin and bear it. But that's another thread . . .

[RyanbabZ71]

but we aren't going to run out of corn

 

I know what you mean I am surrounded by corn here in Indiana. Like I said I am going to put my $$$ into my neighbors pockets

[ZZ327]

The price of corn has double since last year.

 

Also, why do we take a valuable food source and convert it into fuel?

 

At the rate that zucchini grows, someone somewhere should have found a way to feed the hungry of the world AND still have some left over for fuel.

 

 

The seed corn that is used to make fuel and alcohol, isnt the same corn that they grow for food. Its a totally seperate kind and not even grown in the same fields that I know of

[Mikeee]

The price of corn has double since last year.

 

Also, why do we take a valuable food source and convert it into fuel?

 

At the rate that zucchini grows, someone somewhere should have found a way to feed the hungry of the world AND still have some left over for fuel.

 

 

The seed corn that is used to make fuel and alcohol, isnt the same corn that they grow for food. Its a totally seperate kind and not even grown in the same fields that I know of

 

OK then.

But it IS taking away field capacity from food corn.