Desktop, Laptop, or what?

kstruckcountry · June 3, 2017

I do want it to last 4 years +. How hard/impossible it is to change something like a hard drive in newer laptops is a bit of a deterrent for me. I did it on my XPS, but I don't know how you even get the shell open on the newer laptops.

I've seen a lot about hybrid SSD/HDD. I'm assuming it'd be more cost effective to get a plain SSD, and hook up or install an additional HDD, like a few of you have suggested.

I'm right with everyone on 10, it's been glitchy on the XPS and I wish I hadn't done the "free upgrade". The performance of the old laptop was up to par until then. If I didn't need Windows for the software I run, I'd give Linux a try.

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ember1205 · June 3, 2017

SSD is a reasonable thing to use for your OS. If you're doing a lot of "swapping to disk" (not enough RAM or memory-hungry apps) or creating a lot of temporary files while you're working that are automatically removed, it might make sense to have that stuff point to a non-SSD drive. You could opt for upgrading to an SSD from the factory then simply add a 3.5" SATA drive as a second drive for storage. You can get quality 1TB drives for under $100.

The hybrid drives are generally good (I have an iMac with one), but you have zero control over what actually gets written to the SSD portion. The concept is pretty simple: You start out with everything on the SSD portion (presumably, it's larger than the base OS install). Once you add enough data to require more space than the SSD portion can handle, the drive starts to dictate whether that data is written to the SSD or the mechanical drive and "maps" the information so that the OS doesn't care. As you continue adding data, the logic board for the drive will keep running stats on what files are most-accessed and keep those on the SSD.

I have no idea what the lifespan of a drive like that will be or whether certain kinds of use might cause shorter lifespans overall. Additionally, if the logic board that controls the drive fails, your data is inaccessible even though it's completely in tact on the drives "underneath". I would suggest you look at taking an older PC that you might still have and creating a "server" out of it with a NAS drive (these are built to run much longer than typical desktop drives) and use that as a location to regularly back up your work from your "data drive" on your new machine. If you lose the drive in the new machine, you'll still have to start from scratch with the OS and programs, but at least you'll still have your data.

Regardless of what we all "like", Windows 10 is what MS is supporting and pushing. You're better off getting a machine with it natively installed than trying to upgrade to it if you can find an option to still buy a Win7 machine. Upgrading does little more than carry problems forward and even create new ones.

barry G · June 3, 2017

I started off in 1998.

a kt7a overcloking a 900 athlon to 1013.

when I realized the width of what I want to do is the answer..

I just go for the specs of CPU

I had the 3400 pentium 4 (1mb l2 cache) for into 60k hours.

up to 50 bucks a months just for the power bill.

I am now in a xeon, e3-1270, 8gb.. my own case and power, hookups.

if one stands up for a gaming pc, they don't build things. they don't edit things.

not sure if you want a worker or an audience machine.

A tower allows all the pieces to swap out etc..

I am also still a user of Error Correction code on the ram.

ember1205 · June 3, 2017

I started off in 1998.

a kt7a overcloking a 900 athlon to 1013.

when I realized the width of what I want to do is the answer..

I just go for the specs of CPU

I had the 3400 pentium 4 (1mb l2 cache) for into 60k hours.

up to 50 bucks a months just for the power bill.

I am now in a xeon, e3-1270, 8gb.. my own case and power, hookups.

if one stands up for a gaming pc, they don't build things. they don't edit things.

not sure if you want a worker or an audience machine.

A tower allows all the pieces to swap out etc..

I am also still a user of Error Correction code on the ram.

Not sure I really follow most of that post, but ECC RAM is generally not necessary for home computers. Servers and storage systems can make good use of it because things actually RUN from memory instead of disk, and error-correction is key to ensure non-corrupt data is written to disk.

ECC also raises the cost of the computer twice. First, you need a motherboard that can take ECC RAM and those are generally more expensive. Usually, a manufacturer will end up moving you up to a higher class of machine altogether, for more money.

Second, the ECC RAM itself is a fair amount more expensive than non. This raises the cost as well.

I have a pair of HP Z800 Workstation machines that I use as servers. One machine has 96G RAM and dual hexacore Intel Xeon 3.33 GHz CPU's (total of 12 cores, 24 virtual cores with hyperthreading). The other machine has dual quad core Intel Xeon 2.4 GHz CPU's (total of 8 cores, 16 virtual cores with hyperthreading). These machines are basically Server-Class devices that I picked up for super cheap and they are perfect for my home lab and all of my home services that I run.

I also have two HP Envy 700 desktops that I've loaded up with hard drives specifically for data storage. One is a media server with about 10TB of data on line (movies, music, etc.). The other is a true NAS device with about 14TB of space. I've never used ECC RAM and have never had an issue because of it.

kstruckcountry · June 3, 2017

Well, this just got more interesting. I've been gifted a Dell 3847 tower. No graphics card, Pentium 3.1ghz, and 4gb of ram.

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ember1205 · June 3, 2017

Does it have the factory HD still? If so, you might be able to use that to re-install the OS from scratch and start with a "clean" machine. Add a GPU later, and the machine will take up to 16G of RAM (which is cheap).

kstruckcountry · June 3, 2017

It has the factory HD and has a fresh install of Windows 7, apparently. I have the install disc, even. It was originally a Windows 8 machine.

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ember1205 · June 4, 2017

You can jack it up to 16G RAM and off you go, possibly adding another HD for storage of your data, or you could proceed with buying a new machine and use that one as a server by putting a NAS drive in it.

Chevyguy85 · June 4, 2017

Well, this just got more interesting. I've been gifted a Dell 3847 tower. No graphics card, Pentium 3.1ghz, and 4gb of ram.

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Downside to mass produced prebuilt stuff is a lot of time their internals are proprietary so adding stuff later becomes a PITA. Unless that's changed now too because apparently you can't change stuff out on a laptop anymore. Every one I've had or worked on I could removed HDDs, ram, and optical drives so maybe the prebuilt towers are changing too. Used to be they had proprietary mobos and PSUs. Also depending on what graphics card you get later on you're going to have to make sure it fits in the case before you buy it.

A lot of times the cheapest way is to just build your own. Also allows you to put the money to where you think you need it component wise. It's not as hard as people make it seem with youtube videos and sites like pcpartpicker.com.

ember1205 · June 4, 2017

Downside to mass produced prebuilt stuff is a lot of time their internals are proprietary so adding stuff later becomes a PITA. Unless that's changed now too because apparently you can't change stuff out on a laptop anymore. Every one I've had or worked on I could removed HDDs, ram, and optical drives so maybe the prebuilt towers are changing too. Used to be they had proprietary mobos and PSUs. Also depending on what graphics card you get later on you're going to have to make sure it fits in the case before you buy it.

A lot of times the cheapest way is to just build your own. Also allows you to put the money to where you think you need it component wise. It's not as hard as people make it seem with youtube videos and sites like pcpartpicker.com.

PSU's have to be matched to the case more than anything else. Manufacturer cases are hard (if not impossible) to match after-market PSU's to sometimes.

You should count on not being able to change the CPU. RAM and drives are relatively easy to change, you just have to know what the max is that the board will support. Add-on cards (like adding a graphics card) can be hit or miss depending on what the motherboard might have for slots.

Laptops are a completely different animal. Surface-mount components are significantly cheaper than using boards with sockets and standardized components.

kstruckcountry · June 4, 2017

Look what we have here!! Power run for another drive, rear case fan, even quick release for the expansion slots.

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Chevyguy85 · June 4, 2017

PSU's have to be matched to the case more than anything else. Manufacturer cases are hard (if not impossible) to match after-market PSU's to sometimes.

You should count on not being able to change the CPU. RAM and drives are relatively easy to change, you just have to know what the max is that the board will support. Add-on cards (like adding a graphics card) can be hit or miss depending on what the motherboard might have for slots.

Laptops are a completely different animal. Surface-mount components are significantly cheaper than using boards with sockets and standardized components.

Yeah matching proprietary PSUs to the ATX standard is pretty much pointless. I can guess why they do it, doesn't make mean I like it. Was a real pain when graphics cards started using 2 and 3 6 or 8 pin power connectors, even if you found a card that fit in the case the psu couldn't handle/support it. I think all those shenanigans are what turned me off of prebuild systems. Sadly I don't even look favorably upon companies that build using the industry standard sizes, with them I just see paying more in labor to put it together. Money I could have put towards better components.

Board will most likely support more than you're willing to spend to put in it. Just like cell phones with microSD they usually state the "max" as whatever the largest was at the time. That might have changed for mobos since 32-64 gigs of ram isn't unheard of in a personal rig nowadays, but it used to be true, probably still is. They probably just take the slots multiply it by whatever the largest single stick is and viola "max" ram. Still holds true for cell phones though if it says a max of 4GB or more then it'll support 2TB microSD cards (which obviously aren't out yet).

*edit*

@KS the proc fan looking crooked annoys me :'( Yep that all looks proprietary too. Ram and a cheap middle tier SSD would be your best bang for buck performance improvement.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Chevyguy85

ember1205 · June 4, 2017

Fans are partially rotated so that the heat sink/CPU can be removed / installed without having to have the fan removed.

If you pick up a 128G SSD or similar, you can install the OS to -that- disk and then use the spinning drive for your data. Or, just use it as is.

kstruckcountry · June 4, 2017

Yeah, I definitely need to grab a couple 8GB cards for it. Amazon should have something.

The last Dell desktop I played with was very lacking in the graphics department with the integrated card. Any thoughts on a good card?

ember1205 · June 4, 2017

NVidia cards are generally good, Radeons can be a bit finicky. I don't do much with graphics stuff, so I don't have any good first-hand experience with them.

For the RAM, here's the 16G kit you need:

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-PC3L-12800-Unbuffered-Memory-CT2K102464BD160B/dp/B0091LG13O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496543323&sr=8-1&keywords=crucial+CT8961397