Can I do this??

JimG · March 24, 2004

Hey all,

Well, I'm waiting for my tax return from Uncle Sam - so I'm planning how to improve my truck. Had two ideas:

1. Velvet Ride Shackles to improve the ride quality when empty (5 days/week driving to work overly poorly patched roads).

2. Air helper springs to mount b/t the leaf springs and frame. I do haul stuff in the bed, mostly on weekends, and not having the back end of the truck touch the ground would be a big plus. Especially when I haul stuff for my dad, the driveway is very steep.

So, my question is: Can both systems exist on the same truck? I know they serve different purposes, but I want a softer ride while driving to work and some extra lift when I've got a couple hundred pounds in the bed. Also don't want to pay the cash for all this stuff to find out the hard way it won't work.

Second question: Most of the pics of the air helper springs I've seen show the frame rail drilled for the mounting bolts. Since the 03 Sierras use hydro-formed rails, is it a good idea to drill the frame for these bolts? And if not, how can you mount this?

gnutruk · March 25, 2004

Well, I've been considering this combination too. Your thinking that the two systems will compliment each other is correct, in my view, since I've heard that the various Air Lift systems run at about only ten lbs. pressure unloaded, and at that pressure they have virtually no effect on the quality (harshness) of the ride. So they won't negate the benefit of the Velvet Ride shackles during normal use.

Also, since the Velvet's claim that they don't reduce the towing or GVWR, then you ought to be able to pump up the Air Lift system to whatever is needed, relative to the weight you're hauling. It seems that the only difference the Velvet's make is to cause the rear to lower by between 1 and 3 inches. Since that change is entirely due to a change in the geometry at the rear shackle, the leaf springs do not experience any reduction in their weight bearing capacity. Thus, you get the full benefit of the Air Lift, or add-on spring, or whatever you choose.

Now the problem: My truck is a 2002, 1500, 4x4, and when I called the Lord Corporation (877-655-3650) (http://www.lord.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=490), they said they didn't yet make a version for the 1/2 ton trucks. Nor for 2003 1/2 ton's either. If yours is a 1500HD, 2500, or 3500, then they've got it for you. But it seems us 1/2 ton guys (that's the truck, not MY wieght) are SOL. They said a new version is coming out before too long, but as yet we're still waiting.

"Second question: Most of the pics of the air helper springs I've seen show the frame rail drilled for the mounting bolts. Since the 03 Sierras use hydro-formed rails, is it a good idea to drill the frame for these bolts? And if not, how can you mount this?"

Answer: I'm 99% sure you have to drill the frame. No way around it, to get the load bearing capacity. Both Air Lift and Firestone say it doesn't hurt the truck. Of course, if it did cause a frame rupture at that point, you'd be SOL with your GM warranty. So you've got to roll your dice.

Another thing to consider: One of the biggest improvements you can make for handling is to put on a rear sway bar. I added the Helwig bar on my truck, and it made a very noticeable improvement in the cornering - goes through much flatter, less wheel hop, better acceleration out of the corner, etc. I've also heard that the Hotchkiss is a good product.

While the Air Lift kits might help a little bit with rear sway, I don't think they would be as direct and effective as a true sway bar, since air helper springs go about things in an entirely different way, and have an altogether different purpose in mind. From what I've heard, the Velvet's don't help with sway or cornering at all - that's not their function.

Hope this helps.

gnutruk

JimG · March 25, 2004

gnutruk,

Thanks for the info!

I read that the Velvet Ride will lower the height of the truck (no biggie). Actually, I didn't even consider how that would affect the air springs, but after reading what you posted, it makes sense there will be no detrimental effects to the springs.

Now the problem: My truck is a 2002, 1500, 4x4, and when I called the Lord Corporation (877-655-3650) (http://www.lord.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=490), they said they didn't yet make a version for the 1/2 ton trucks. Nor for 2003 1/2 ton's either. If yours is a 1500HD, 2500, or 3500, then they've got it for you. But it seems us 1/2 ton guys (that's the truck, not MY wieght) are SOL. They said a new version is coming out before too long, but as yet we're still waiting.

This bothers me greatly. I called them less than a month ago, I have an 03 Sierra, they said they do have a shackle for the 1/2 ton truck. It's the same as the rest of the GMC/Chevy shackle part numbers. Now I'm going to call back and ask again I think.

Figured I would have to drill the frame rails. Not going to be a big fan of that, but it is the only way. Oh well, I guess I'll break out the cobalt bits for the occassion.

As for the sway bar, interesting thought there. I wasn't too concerned about that - looking more for a smoother ride and leveling capabilities when I'm loaded (NOT with beer ). However, I could see the benefits, especially if it improves the cornering. Guess I'm gonna go look up the cost of that now. Thanks for helping me spend the rest of my tax return.

Thanks again for the input - any other comments/ideas are always welcome.

gnutruk · March 26, 2004

Now the problem: My truck is a 2002, 1500, 4x4, and when I called the Lord Corporation (877-655-3650) (http://www.lord.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=490), they said they didn't yet make a version for the 1/2 ton trucks. Nor for 2003 1/2 ton's either. If yours is a 1500HD, 2500, or 3500, then they've got it for you. But it seems us 1/2 ton guys (that's the truck, not MY wieght) are SOL. They said a new version is coming out before too long, but as yet we're still waiting.

This bothers me greatly. I called them less than a month ago, I have an 03 Sierra, they said they do have a shackle for the 1/2 ton truck. It's the same as the rest of the GMC/Chevy shackle part numbers. Now I'm going to call back and ask again I think.

JimG :

For GM trucks, the standard part # for the Velvet Ride is VR-0004-1. But that shows only for the 3/4 ton and up vehicles, or 1500's up to but not beyond model year 2000. When I called the Lord Corporation, I got put through to one of the engineers - a specialist who works especially on the shackles - and he said that there were some mounting bolt clearance problems on the NBS trucks (e.g., 1999 +). He told me at that time (this was about last October) that they were working on a fix, that they were even testing the replacement shackle, and that it would be available early in the new year (2004). I jokingly offered to guinea pig a set of them at no charge to his company, and he sorta laughed at that He even gave me a provisional part number for the new shackles when they finally appear : VR-150-3.

Well, needless to say, that item still hasn't shown up on their website. And quite frankly, I do not understand this, since as we all know there are a HUGE number of GM NBS trucks out there. It would seem that the Lord Corp. is missing a really big market segment. In having taken a careful look at the 2500's and 3500's, I can see how a different shackle would be needed as compared to the 1500, but it also looks like only a specific adaptation would be called for, not some total re-design or anything extreme like that. So I just can't figure why they haven't got around to it yet.

In terms of your goal (mine too), I think that the Velvets are going to be far the more beneficial addition. Like you, I only infrequently tow and/or carry much heavier loads in the bed. Thus, the smoother ride that the Velvets clearly provide on an unloaded, everyday basis will be more appreciated. And it seems there are very few other ways to go about achieving that goal. All the other options - such as mushier shocks, reduced air pressure in the tires - come with too many negative trade-offs. Indeed, the latter (lowering the air pressure below the recommended minimum) can be just plain-old unsafe. Not to mention horrible on the gas mileage.

On the other hand, there are a number of different ways of going about gaining extra towing/hauling capability. In addition to the air helper spring systems from Air Lift and Firestone, there are a number of different kinds of bolt-on, steel bar-type helper springs, various adjustable shock absorbers (such as the Rancho 9000 series), and maybe other products too. So we have our choices on that matter, but for replacing what the Velvets do, there don't appear to be any truly viable options.

Well, those are just a few more thoughts, anyhow. I guess we just have to wait until Lord gets around to releasing the appropriate version for our NBS trucks.

Hey !! That sorta sounds like the old Janis Joplin song :

"Oh Lord, won't you pro-duce

a shack-le for me,"

"Them Fords they got their-uns,

but none for Che-vy,"

"My tax rebate's burn-ing

to get spent on thee,"

"Oh Lord, won't you pro-duce

a shack-le for me."

Or something like that.

Hope this helps.

gnutruk

lrymal · March 26, 2004

Weird, installed them on mine during early 2003 and have had no bolt clearance issue.

JimG · March 26, 2004

I'm calling them (Lord Corp) in the morning to find out what's going on with these things. I've heard two cases now where the shackles "do not fit the NBS GMC/Chevy 1500 trucks" - and from what lyrmal has said and I was told from Lord Corp, they do fit. So now I'm completely confused.

gnutruk, LOL - I like the song. Assuming I can get the right shackle for my truck, I'm going to do both that and the air springs. Going for the best of both worlds. And obviously needing a few days to do the installation. Also giving thought to a sway bar. Gotta see how much Uncle Sam gives me. Side benefit of having the air springs: I can give some boost to my air horn with a solenoid valve off the air tank instead of the dinky little compressor it came with.

Right now I don't want to replace the shocks because I want to see the difference alone with the shackles. I'm hoping to leave the shocks on until they exceed their useful life, then replace them (same for the tires - either that or next year's tax refund will decide if the tires "exceed" their useful life). Hate these Firestone tires.

On a side note, I saw a brand new Kia SUV today - they got wrapped in Michelin tires ... now, Kia's aren't terribly expensive, but those are decent tires. Why can't GM do the same? Personally some BFGs would be nice on there.

hvac1000 · March 26, 2004

Hade Velvet Ride on my 1999 NSB truck and transferred them to my 2002. It uses the same standard chev part number at least to 2002.

Quadrasteer · March 26, 2004

Just spoke to Jim. a tech at Lord, and he said #VR0004-1 will fit the 1500s as long as it's not a short bed. The short bed has a body rail right above the shackle and there's not enough clearance for deflection. I have an '02 Sierra Denali and I was under the truck while I was on the phone with him. He asked for a couple of measurements, skackle center to center (4 1/4"), clearance above spring end (4") and said it should fit. I asked if the $40. discount was going to end anytime soon and they said no. Think I'll try 'em

JimG · March 27, 2004

Wait a sec ... a shortbed is what I have ... I don't have an 8' bed.

I didn't call them because I was convinced based on other posts that these shackles would fit. And when I spoke to Lord Corp the first time, they said it would fit my truck. D@mmit

Next question's going to be what can I do to make it fit?

gnutruk · March 27, 2004

I spoke with 'Jean' - very knowledgeable person - at Lord Corp. yesterday afternoon, and what she said basically confirmed what Quardasteer brought up: namely, that the Velvet Ride Shackles ARE NOT COMPATIBLE with the NBS ½ ton (1500) trucks. That's everything from 1999 on up to 2004 model years.

NOW; they will FIT, in the sense that they can be INSTALLED, but under conditions of high articulation there is likely to be contact between the shackle and the underside of the bed of the truck. By high articulation is meant a condition where the truck is carrying a larger payload AND the vehicle passes over an obstacle (a bump, or uneven road surface) at moderate or higher speeds, thus causing the rear axle/leaf spring mounting points to travel upwards relative to the undercarriage (the bottom of the truck).

To repeat, we're talking ONLY about the NBS, ½ ton (1500) vehicles, both 2WD and 4WD. So, when some folks say they're having no problems with their Velvets, we have to be sure that they don't have a 1500HD, 2500, 2500HD, or 3500. Also, that their truck isn't a long bed, which as Quadrasteer pointed out - and as confirmed by 'Jean' at Lord Corp. - do not have these clearance issues between the top of the rear shackle and the underside of the bed. Furthermore, we have to understand that someone who has installed the Velvets on his/her NBS ½ ton truck, and who is not reporting any problems, might never have hauled anything really heavy, whether in the form of a trailer or as cargo in the bed.

I want to be clear about what comes next. I do not have the Velvets on my truck, so there may very well be factors that I haven't experienced and so am not aware of. Maybe they do work, and Lord Corp. is mistaken. Also, I suppose it is conceivable that Quadrasteer's Denali is designed differently than the regular (i.e.; non-4-wheel steering) trucks. And indeed, for all I know there may be some other special GM truck rear suspension configurations in the ½ tons that are OK with the Velvets. Additionally, it is reasonable to consider that a ½ ton truck that has been “lifted,” EVEN A LITTLE BIT, would not have these problems. However, as of yesterday, the position of the Lord Corp. on this question, as stated to me by ‘Jean,’ is that the Velvet Ride Shackles which they manufacture are not compatible with GM NBS ½ ton pick-up trucks, and thus are officially not supported.

Believe me, I don't like this either, because I want to put them on my truck too, and have been waiting since last October for Lord Corp. to get around to making a 'fix' for this problem.

Well, that's what I’ve found out so far. I have the telephone number and extension for the Executive Vice President at the Lord Corp., and I will call him Monday morning to see if there's anything in the works on this matter. It was too late to call yesterday (I'm on the West Coast; he's in North Caroline), so I'll report back sometime Monday afternoon/evening with any relevant news.

gnutruk

Quadrasteer · March 28, 2004

Gnutruk, what about that provisional VR-150-3 # that they gave you. Mabye that is the change to make it fit. I told them yesterday that they're losing a giant amount of sales not having a design that fits these trucks. Good luck!

lrymal · March 28, 2004

Could also be that GM changed the shackle mount area for some of the 2003 models. Mine was assembled in July 2002.

It has absolutely no bolt head clearance problems with or without a heavy load.

Quadrasteer · March 28, 2004

When I spoke to them they never mentioned bolt clearance, only the clearance above the rear rolled end of the spring, which is the part that would hit when deflected.

lrymal · March 28, 2004

When I spoke to them they never mentioned bolt clearance, only the clearance above the rear rolled end of the spring, which is the part that would hit when deflected.

This topic came up during mid-2003 and I called them. They told me of complaints of a bolt head hitting a mount during hard bumps and bottoming out. I had my 320 pound cousin get in the bed and bounce up and down. Nope, nada. No problems. Nothing messed up at all.

And, no, the tailgate cables didn't break when he crawled in and crawled out.

gnutruk · March 28, 2004

When I spoke to them they never mentioned bolt clearance, only the clearance above the rear rolled end of the spring, which is the part that would hit when deflected.

Just so. What Quadrasteer points out here was confirmed by 'Jean,' the Lord Corp. person I spoke to yesterday.

In a post above I said that the problem was 'bolt head clearance,' or a phrase essentially meaning that same thing. Well, Jean didn't talk about that issue, but only the shackle-bed clearance problem. The bolt head clearance problem was brought up by the engineer I spoke to last fall. Maybe they're the same problem, just looked at or expressed differently by two different people. But regardless what the problem had once been, the bed clearance issue is what seems to be gumming up the works now.

Jean at Lord Corp. said they had taken some shackles back because of customer complaints about the contact. I have, of course, no idea how many units might have been involved there. It didn't sound like they were doing any sort of "recall," just that they aren't recommending their shackles anymore for NBS GM 1/2 tons.

Irymal wrote :

"Could also be that GM changed the shackle mount area for some of the 2003 models. Mine was assembled in July 2002.

It has absolutely no bolt head clearance problems with or without a heavy load."

Could well be. As is commonly known, GM (as with all the other manufacturers) frequently makes production changes within model years, for who-knows-what reasons. Perhaps the 2003 and 2004 trucks are perfectly fine for the Velvet Ride shackle, but if the Lord Corp. thinks that those year trucks still use the identical rear suspension system as the 1999-2002 trucks, then they may be persisting in policy/compatibility recommendations that no longer "fit the facts."

Those are some of the issues I will be bringing up with the Exe. V.P. Monday morning, if I actually can get through to him.

If he's like a lot of these guys, I may need to locate his cell number so I can reach him on the fairways down at the country club.

gnutruk