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LFA motor swap possible

Jim Stidham
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Jim Stidham Enthusiast

Jim Stidham

Posted
Posted

I have a 2009 Silverado 4x4 Hybrid Crew Cab that threw up a check engine light.  Got home and plugged in code reader says P0016 and P0106.  Took to the dealer first thing in morning dropped off at 7:30am, within an hour and half they called and said that I had a fouled plug in cylinder one and that I had spun a cam bearing and would need a new motor.  First question would be how can you determine that there is a spun bearing without physically taking the truck apart?  I have driven the truck home yesterday and back to work again today and the truck sounds and runs like it always has.  No motor noises, no rough idle or running, nothing different but a check engine light on.

 

Here are my questions:

1.  Is it possible to diagnose a spun cam bearing without taking the motor apart?

2.  Could the fouled plug be from the AFM system creating an excessive oil issue in cylinder one and fouling plug?

3.  If it was a spun bearing can the motor be removed and fixed?

4.  Is it possible to replace an LFA motor with a LQ4 or LQ9 or any other LS motor besides a LFA?  Do really care to have the AFM any more.

 

Thanks!

swathdiver Senior Enthusiast

swathdiver

Posted
Posted

Hey Jim, 

 

I think that's a pack of lies.  While a spun cam bearing is bad and requires engine disassembly to replace it, such does not necessarily mean that the entire engine is no good.  It might mean that a replacement would be a less expensive option.  You do not want to go backwards with those Gen III motors since you have Gen IV architecture, I don't even think you can cost effectively convert your engine and transmission over to a standard setup without a donor vehicle.  Those two codes have nothing to do with your camshaft.  Replace the MAP sensor and Crank Sensor or follow the diagnostic procedure to ensure it's not a wiring problem or a bad ECM.  If the motor is running smooth, still getting the same gas mileage, I doubt there's anything wrong with it.  Send an oil sample off to Blackstone Labs for analysis even.  If there is abnormal bearing wear, they will detect it.

newdude Senior Enthusiast

newdude

Posted
Posted (edited)

DTC P0016 is for Crankshaft Position (CKP) Camshaft Position (CMP) Correlation.  

Quote

 

Circuit/System Description

 

The engine control module (ECM) uses the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor and the camshaft position (CMP) sensor pulses to monitor the correlation between the crankshaft and the camshaft position. The crankshaft reluctor wheel consists of a 60-tooth pattern with 2 teeth missing for the reference gap. Each tooth is evenly spaced 6 degrees apart except for the reference gap. The camshaft reluctor wheel has 4 teeth, 2 narrow and 2 wide. The 4 trailing edges of each tooth are evenly spaced at 90 degrees apart around the circumference of the camshaft sprocket. With the engine running and the CMP actuator in the Park position, the ECM expects the camshaft signal pulses to occur 36 crankshaft degrees before top dead center (BTDC) for cylinder number 1, and every 90 degrees thereafter.

 

Circuit/System Testing

 

Note: You must perform the Circuit/System Verification before proceeding with Circuit/System Testing.

 

Inspect the engine front cover area or review the service history of the vehicle for any recent repairs involving the timing chain, the timing chain tensioner, the camshaft, the crankshaft, the camshaft actuator, or the sprockets.

 

If recent repairs were made, refer to Timing Chain, Crankshaft Sprocket, Camshaft Position Actuator, and Solenoid Valve Replacement and inspect the timing chain, the timing chain tensioner, and both sprockets for proper timing alignment or indexing.

 

Remove the engine front cover. Refer to Camshaft Position Actuator Replacement and inspect the camshaft position actuator for wear or damage. Refer to Camshaft Position Actuator Cleaning and Inspection.

 

If any components are worn or damaged, replace as necessary.

 

 

Basically, its seeing the cam and crank not timed correct with each other.  It could very well be a bad cam actuator, bad actuator solenoid, bad timing set.  It could be a cam position sensor, but going off of GM's diag for that code, it doesn't sound likely.  Worst case?  Dealer was right and the cam is junk.  

 

As far as swapping?  AFM is the least bit of worry on that engine.  The LFA 6.0 has special provisions for mounting specific hybrid powertrain components.  Also, its a bit risky for a DIY'er due to the high voltage system in the truck.  Dropping in anything but the correct engine will result in quite the headache and nightmare, and would rack $$$$$$$$ really fast.  Way too much going on due to the hybrid system.      

 

I think if the engine really needs to be replaced, you really only have 2 options that are IMO the most cost effective options.

 

- $4195 for a brand new from GM LFA 6.0 engine with a 3 year/100k warranty, plus whatever labor they charge to swap it.

 

- Get rid of the truck and move on.  

Edited by newdude
  • Like 1
Jim Stidham Enthusiast

Jim Stidham

Posted
  • Author
Posted
On 1/23/2020 at 3:11 PM, newdude said:

DTC P0016 is for Crankshaft Position (CKP) Camshaft Position (CMP) Correlation.  

 

Basically, its seeing the cam and crank not timed correct with each other.  It could very well be a bad cam actuator, bad actuator solenoid, bad timing set.  It could be a cam position sensor, but going off of GM's diag for that code, it doesn't sound likely.  Worst case?  Dealer was right and the cam is junk.  

 

As far as swapping?  AFM is the least bit of worry on that engine.  The LFA 6.0 has special provisions for mounting specific hybrid powertrain components.  Also, its a bit risky for a DIY'er due to the high voltage system in the truck.  Dropping in anything but the correct engine will result in quite the headache and nightmare, and would rack $$$$$$$$ really fast.  Way too much going on due to the hybrid system.      

 

I think if the engine really needs to be replaced, you really only have 2 options that are IMO the most cost effective options.

 

- $4195 for a brand new from GM LFA 6.0 engine with a 3 year/100k warranty, plus whatever labor they charge to swap it.

 

- Get rid of the truck and move on.  

I appreciate the detailed response and would like to know where to purchase a GM LFA 6.0 motor if needed for $4195.  Thanks for the information!

newdude Senior Enthusiast

newdude

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Jim Stidham said:

I appreciate the detailed response and would like to know where to purchase a GM LFA 6.0 motor if needed for $4195.  Thanks for the information!

 

That is GM dealer list price, so as long as you have an honest GM dealer near by, that's what they sell for (plus tax).  If they tell you any more than that for list price, they are marking it up.  P/N is 19329979.  Not sure what state you are in, but there are about 35 dealers in the US that have atleast one of these engines on hand, and GM has stock at their main powertrain warehouse so any dealer near you can get one in.    

Jim Stidham Enthusiast

Jim Stidham

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Big difference in what the dealer told me here in Boise Idaho.  They quoted me $8500 for motor, plus labor.   I guess I will be looking around to see what avenues I have and where I might get the work done.  Thanks again for the information.

  • 3 weeks later...
Jim Stidham Enthusiast

Jim Stidham

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Just thought I would update the thread.  It has been three weeks since the dealership told me the motor was shot  and need to be replaced.  Since then I have installed a Range Technology AFM delete module, changed the oil and added 1 bottle of Mobile Techron gas additive and 1 bottle of Auto RX since I had both, replaced the number one spark plug that they said was fouled.  When I pulled the plug it did look fouled and very white, not full of oil like stated on the dealership paperwork.  Then I plugged in my code reader and cleared the codes.  Since then I have got almost 900 miles and no check engine light and the motor runs and sounds fine.  Do not know anything else but I will drive it until blows.  Right now the motor has 138K.

  • 1 month later...
bg1988 Enthusiast

bg1988

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 1/23/2020 at 12:12 PM, Jim Stidham said:

I have a 2009 Silverado 4x4 Hybrid Crew Cab that threw up a check engine light.  Got home and plugged in code reader says P0016 and P0106.  Took to the dealer first thing in morning dropped off at 7:30am, within an hour and half they called and said that I had a fouled plug in cylinder one and that I had spun a cam bearing and would need a new motor.  First question would be how can you determine that there is a spun bearing without physically taking the truck apart?  I have driven the truck home yesterday and back to work again today and the truck sounds and runs like it always has.  No motor noises, no rough idle or running, nothing different but a check engine light on.

 

Here are my questions:

1.  Is it possible to diagnose a spun cam bearing without taking the motor apart?

2.  Could the fouled plug be from the AFM system creating an excessive oil issue in cylinder one and fouling plug?

3.  If it was a spun bearing can the motor be removed and fixed?

4.  Is it possible to replace an LFA motor with a LQ4 or LQ9 or any other LS motor besides a LFA?  Do really care to have the AFM any more.

 

Thanks!

you will need an entire swap out from a donor  truck including the A/C

 

wires

computers

it's going to be a lot of work  i bet there is nothing wrong  these can last  i have seen one with 290k miles.. and there is plenty with 200k+ on them

 

use 91 or 93 octane fuel from mobil/exxon  or chevron/texaco  also i would check the battery cables they are probably dirty as well    there is several of them if you not getting at lest 14.8-14.9 volts  on cold start,  you will have issues 

\

 

 i would also inspect the cable from the engine block to the chassis  it may have fraying or dirtyness

 

 

also inspect the terminals for crimp damage or opening up damage   

 

 

You can do a Hemi 5.7L swap as well must be a version from the hybrid model.

Edited by bg1988
Jim Stidham Enthusiast

Jim Stidham

Posted
  • Author
Posted

It has been almost 90 days since my last post.  Here is what I have done so far with the truck.  I changed out the number one fouled plug.  Added a AFM module delete that plugs into the OBD port.  Changed the oil used Mobile Techron, also added a bottle of Techron fuel injector cleaner and  bottle of Auto-Rx Plus.  I have driven a little over four thousand miles.  Check engine light is still on and it still drives the same as it always has.

 

The one thing I need to mention is when I changed the oil I did find two or three small pieces of a hard plastic type material in the oil.  I assume that is from the timing chain tensioner since those are made of that type of material.  

  • 2 weeks later...
bg1988 Enthusiast

bg1988

Posted
Posted
On 4/13/2020 at 5:50 AM, Jim Stidham said:

It has been almost 90 days since my last post.  Here is what I have done so far with the truck.  I changed out the number one fouled plug.  Added a AFM module delete that plugs into the OBD port.  Changed the oil used Mobile Techron, also added a bottle of Techron fuel injector cleaner and  bottle of Auto-Rx Plus.  I have driven a little over four thousand miles.  Check engine light is still on and it still drives the same as it always has.

 

The one thing I need to mention is when I changed the oil I did find two or three small pieces of a hard plastic type material in the oil.  I assume that is from the timing chain tensioner since those are made of that type of material.  

what color was the plastic? 

bg1988 Enthusiast

bg1988

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jim Stidham said:

Here it is in my hand, sort of a brown color. Where the plastic broke off it is white.

 

yeah  even if that was from the timing chain  NOTHING would happen nor any damage to the engine as this is a  Non-interference engine the heads have a notch  cut out for the valves 

 

 

dealers are playing you  saying other stuff is damaged   the only way to know for sure is to crack open the engine

 

P0016 cam to crank misalignment     I highly doubt the CAM went out  these are of much higher quality then what you get on a normal rig  it's very specifically designed   for Heavy Duty usage i.e auto stop.. and HIGH SPEED starts remember these rigs are started by a 60kw motor  not a 12volt starter  that start speed can be about 1500 to 2,000 rpm from auto stop 

 

 these rigs have HIGH performance  corvette  oil pumps in them  not the "normal ones"  

 

 

 

P0016

Malfunction criteria:

2 cam sensor pulse more then 11 crank degrees before or 11 crank degrees after nominal position in one cam revolution .

 

 

a the phaser sensor  is broken or slow /broken bad wires 

or it skipped a few teeth

 

also with the P0106  it could be the MAP sensor  or MAF/IAT

(mine was the MAF/ IAT when i got that code)

 

 

 

there is no real risk with the HV  unless you are messing with the HV battery, HV wires or inverter just pull the HV disconnect switch  and keep it on your person  so no one  can energize the system..

Edited by bg1988
  • 11 months later...
Allys Auto New Member

Allys Auto

Posted
Posted

I have a 2008 Tahoe hybrid that I bought from Copart auction about 2 years ago it didn’t run when I bought it after getting it back to my shop and checking it out I found it had a broken lifter  I am a mechanic and I decided to rebuild the complete engine since I bought it non running and didn’t know the history of it and was doing the work myself.  when I removed the old cam bearings to install new ones the #1 bearing was worn pretty bad and allowing oil to leak into the cylinder  wile the rest were not warn at all  and from what I could tell it was being driven that way for a long time till the lifter collapsed.  The Lfa is the same as any other gen iv ls.     

  • 2 years later...
Joe Boogie New Member

Joe Boogie

Posted
Posted

Jim, how many miles did/have you gotten with your truck?  I have a 2009 Escalade Hybrid facing potentially the same issue at about 131K (albeit with a new, re-maufactured transmission at 115K nonetheless!), and trying to decide what to do.  Dealer also suggested replacing the entire motor if replacing the spark plugs and wires doesn't work, which seems ridiculous to me.

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