2020 3.0 Duramax 1st Blackstone Report

customboss · November 18, 2021

I think the conclusion here is ( and I am waiting for the Blackstone labs data owner to pipe in) is whatever he can do to limit soot production in the venerable 3.0 TD would really help lower wear. The Exxon Mobil contract formulated lubricant Dexos D 0w20 is not protecting as well as it should based on what I can glean from incomplete Bklabs data. I'm not sure but I suspect he hasn't changed out the OEM air filter yet. Or he's loading the air filter fast in his environs and operating climate and that is slowing 02 to the combustion chamber and the ECM is changing fueling to meet that issue and that can increase soot production.

The other 2 levers to lower his needless wear and insolubles is lubricant chemistry change of which only Amsoil DP 0w20 is currently on the table.

Then better diesel fuels.

When I write TUNE it means whatever we can do to optimize the design or its deficiencies in the real world of towing, idling, pulling, plowing snow whatever.

Grumpy Bear · November 18, 2021

3 hours ago, customboss said:

Absolutely spot on! Its a research paper not a walk in the park for the consumer of course. Its dated 2015 and there have been some discoveries since that year,.... I am sure no company is disclosing. Especially Shell.

Daddy told me that, "Any good lie is mostly true or you wouldn't believe it". I don't know if that is true anymore. People seem to believe most anything...but his point was use what's true, dismiss what is not and the tool you use to separate the two is 'critical thinking'. Another thing that seems in short supply anymore.

I'm happy I haven't lost my touch. Thanks customboss.

Grumpy Bear · November 18, 2021

23 hours ago, customboss said:

Amsoil DP 0w20 that is using a soy based technology to solve out some of those DI diesel deposits

You're talking about soy based esters that improve solvency....correct?

customboss · November 18, 2021

1 minute ago, Grumpy Bear said:

You're talking about soy based esters that improve solvency....correct?

Yes Sir that is correct. If memory serves a soyate form in the Amsoil DP chemistry. Its reportable on their SDS. It may or may not be synthesized but it has the characteristics that XOM is going for too. Theirs just seems to miss the mark with this application.

Hand in glove is critical to getting things right in the real world.

Grumpy Bear · November 18, 2021

3 hours ago, customboss said:

Yes Sir that is correct. If memory serves a soyate form in the Amsoil DP chemistry. Its reportable on their SDS. It may or may not be synthesized but it has the characteristics that XOM is going for too. Theirs just seems to miss the mark with this application.

Hand in glove is critical to getting things right in the real world.

Soy Methyl Ester? Straight up ester solvent. Used in diesel fuels, printing inks that are bio based. Base of many alkyd paints. No idea they were using them in ICE lube oils. One of the hygroscopic esters. That there is interesting.

customboss · November 19, 2021

14 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Soy Methyl Ester? Straight up ester solvent. Used in diesel fuels, printing inks that are bio based. Base of many alkyd paints. No idea they were using them in ICE lube oils. One of the hygroscopic esters. That there is interesting.

No Sir! You are going off course there Grumpy. Don't FUD us now.....LOL LOL

Its a soy based lubricant from what I found and they have similar characteristics but solvency does not trump lubricity. Most likely synthesized like XOM tried to use but it missed the mark! LOL

Check this company out that makes Biosynthetic formulations that focus on the Ohio Family farm Bio lubes. Some of the best formulations there are dealing with USA made bio oils. HOBS is the key. They blend the HOBS with synthetic base oils and use very unique tailored additive packages for controlling the bio issues we all have dealt with in the past.

https://renewablelube.com

Grumpy Bear · November 19, 2021

5 minutes ago, customboss said:

No Sir! You are going off course there Grumpy. Don't FUD us now.....LOL LOL

Why is was framed as a question boss This area is new to me. Students ask questions...right? :rolleyes:

customboss · November 19, 2021

4 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Why is was framed as a question boss This area is new to me. Students ask questions...right?

I'm no teacher my friend. Trust me.

Grumpy Bear · November 19, 2021

4 hours ago, customboss said:

https://renewablelube.com

All righty then. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oleic-oil

I got more from this link than the company site information. The gas oil data sheets are hideous. Diesel sheets are forthcoming enough but both make vague statements about cold flow side stepping data with 'meets the spec' > numbers that look like 'data sheet data' but are not. Why not API licensed?

In the 'Booster' information were notes on the antimony additive as a AW replacement for ZDDP. Explain please?

At $18 a quart it will take more specifics than 'Try it, you'll like it Mikey" cereal type marketing sort a like data.

customboss · November 19, 2021

11 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

All righty then. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oleic-oil

I got more from this link than the company site information. The gas oil data sheets are hideous. Diesel sheets are forthcoming enough but both make vague statements about cold flow side stepping data with 'meets the spec' > numbers that look like 'data sheet data' but are not. Why not API licensed?

In the 'Booster' information were notes on the antimony additive as a AW replacement for ZDDP. Explain please?

At $18 a quart it will take more specifics than 'Try it, you'll like it Mikey" cereal type marketing sort a like data.

RLI doesn’t care about marketing to consumers. They are an industrial focused company off the Ohio farm.

I consulted for them starting 20 years ago on an Audi road racing diesel project. Then we took the 5w-40 HD formulation to the next level for 4.2 V8 RS gasoline race engines and their CANAM WSC Diesels.

That oil is now low ash so copper sulfonate gone as an additive but it’s an incredibly strong Lubricant that is a problem solver for many applications. We presented at STLE for the technology of HOBS and using tailored additives to the bio base Oils.

Copper sulfonate was a critical additive in Kendall GT1 of 1970’s fame. Gulf used it in their racing oils Mark Donahue won with.

A-Petroleum-I is why they aren’t licensed. When RLI started API boxed them in because of the standards biased towards petroleum.

Their add packs are updated ILSAC and API approved but the cost to read across for the proprietary blends was out of site costly.
For my customers who are running spark engines we recommend the 5w20,5w30,and 5w40 HD low ash chemistries if they want ball busting protection and cleaning. The bio part limits fuels dilutions issues. I ran their 5w30 and 5w40 HD LA products in a very highly APR modified 2011 VW 2.0 T we ran on E85 and when the turbo waste gate seal wire out the techs couldn’t believe there was no carbon on valves pistons or in turbo. SEE attached video
Grumpy you seem to promote the benefits of Redline products but this is more capable from over 20 years of testing their HD and racing chemistries.
As far as tech sheets disclosing all, they show mins to protect the formulations like everyone else who has unique chemistries.

Call Bill Garmier and he’ll speak to you. Tell him I sent you.

Edited November 19, 2021 by customboss
add turbo video

customboss · November 19, 2021

10 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

All righty then. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oleic-oil

I got more from this link than the company site information. The gas oil data sheets are hideous. Diesel sheets are forthcoming enough but both make vague statements about cold flow side stepping data with 'meets the spec' > numbers that look like 'data sheet data' but are not. Why not API licensed?

In the 'Booster' information were notes on the antimony additive as a AW replacement for ZDDP. Explain please?

At $18 a quart it will take more specifics than 'Try it, you'll like it Mikey" cereal type marketing sort a like data.

Cost of RLI shipped more like $10-12 a qt.

I just bought some 5w40 HD LA for my son in law shipped to east Texas for his 2004 F250 Super Duty 6.0 PSD and that oil has made his engine last well past 100,000 miles with NO major 6.0 nightmare issue.

I am borrowing a friends 2001 F250 Super Duty while I wait for GM to get me the Trail Boss to Alamosa,CO ( taking forever) and he had run Rotella for 300,000 miles changed every 5000 miles. For the cold here I ordered the RLI 15w40 HD LA to clean it up a bit and pump better in cold. Its an amazing difference between the Rotella T4 15w40 CK4.

As far as Sb as an additive its a tailored additive for the chemistries and they aren't the only one using it but it DOES NOT REPLACE ZDDP. Not sure where you got that Grump? You can use less ZDDP.

There used to be a diester based synthetic engine oil that NASA loved for their ground transport units at launch pads. They did use NO ZDDP and replaced with Sb mostly. I can't remember their brand name but is that what you are thinking of?

Grumpy Bear · November 19, 2021

3 hours ago, customboss said:

There used to be a diester based synthetic engine oil that NASA loved for their ground transport units at launch pads. They did use NO ZDDP and replaced with Sb mostly. I can't remember their brand name but is that what you are thinking of?

Though it was something I read on RLI's site in the PDF for the Booster package but I don't see it now and can't find it.

:dunno:

I've used all sorts of oils over the years including Castor Bean oils when I was playing with Triumph and Norton's. Mineral oils was what was available to mere mortals when I was younger if you wished something other. Was a fanboy for Wolfs Head Racing and Aero Shell Aviation both, depending on the motor I was beating up. Mobil 1's opening salvo was so impressive on tear downs it took me one motor to convert to PAO. Then....Mobil did what Mobil did and I was introduced to Red Line HP. That was perhaps 30 years ago and hundreds of thousands of miles and I've never torn down a Red Line HP motor, regardless of mileage, that wasn't assembly room first day to the world clean inside when the body rotted off it. Not a single oil related issue. About 6 years ago and after retirement it got lean for awhile and QSUD was being run up the flagpole as the greatest thing since sliced bread. It took but 80K miles to coke the ring up on my 2.4 and fill the rocker box full. Yes this motor has some 'other issues' in design. I've had one other motor do this that did not have the 2.4's ring land issues also in under a 100K on Pennzoil Platinum.

It's not that I'm a Red Line HP devote. It isn't the name. It's the chemistry. It's the results and it's a nearly 30 year relationship with David Granquist. We did a leakdown on 200K Honda I weaned on that oil that was still under 5%. Inside looked new. I pulled down a TC88 at 50K that not only looked new. I measured new and I was running on 10W40 RLHP car oil.

I use to wash my hands in gasoline and Lava when it was leaded. Then I found GoJo. It worked and I still use it. Same thing. When is stops working I'll stop using it. Not really looking to fix problems I don't have.

That said I'm running Kirkland and TRIAX S7 in that wounded 2.4 and when I keep the dose rate at 5:1 it does remarkably well keeping the rings free and consumption WAY down. If you think this RLI 5W30 will keep her rings unstuck without dosing, I will give it a try.

customboss · November 20, 2021

3 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Though it was something I read on RLI's site in the PDF for the Booster package but I don't see it now and can't find it.

I've used all sorts of oils over the years including Castor Bean oils when I was playing with Triumph and Norton's. Mineral oils was what was available to mere mortals when I was younger if you wished something other. Was a fanboy for Wolfs Head Racing and Aero Shell Aviation both, depending on the motor I was beating up. Mobil 1's opening salvo was so impressive on tear downs it took me one motor to convert to PAO. Then....Mobil did what Mobil did and I was introduced to Red Line HP. That was perhaps 30 years ago and hundreds of thousands of miles and I've never torn down a Red Line HP motor, regardless of mileage, that wasn't assembly room first day to the world clean inside when the body rotted off it. Not a single oil related issue. About 6 years ago and after retirement it got lean for awhile and QSUD was being run up the flagpole as the greatest thing since sliced bread. It took but 80K miles to coke the ring up on my 2.4 and fill the rocker box full. Yes this motor has some 'other issues' in design. I've had one other motor do this that did not have the 2.4's ring land issues also in under a 100K on Pennzoil Platinum.

It's not that I'm a Red Line HP devote. It isn't the name. It's the chemistry. It's the results and it's a nearly 30 year relationship with David Granquist. We did a leakdown on 200K Honda I weaned on that oil that was still under 5%. Inside looked new. I pulled down a TC88 at 50K that not only looked new. I measured new and I was running on 10W40 RLHP car oil.

I use to wash my hands in gasoline and Lava when it was leaded. Then I found GoJo. It worked and I still use it. Same thing. When is stops working I'll stop using it. Not really looking to fix problems I don't have.

That said I'm running Kirkland and TRIAX S7 in that wounded 2.4 and when I keep the dose rate at 5:1 it does remarkably well keeping the rings free and consumption WAY down. If you think this RLI 5W30 will keep her rings unstuck without dosing, I will give it a try.

Got ya, the RLI Booster may not have ZDDP in it but I am not sure. I generally don't add stuff to my properly formulated fully lubricants.

We agree about chemistry being the driving factor best we can determine then confirm by testing in real world use.

Opinions and observations on your comments:

Redline : Roy Howell was the chemist from Lubrizol that took the company to the next level in 1986 when originally founded in 1979 by Tim and Peter as a racing oil centric blender. David Granquist is a tech guy and sales driver as far as I ever knew. They did give away really nice racing suits back in the day! Phillips 66 owns them now since 2014.

Keep washing your hands, ROGER..... LOL From the commercial in the 70's?

You might want to take a new look at the newer QuakerState full synthetic for a good low cost alternative to Dexos1 Gen 2 and SOON 3 options.

Kirkland I think is made by Warren Performance Products still I think? That is MAG1 formulation, Sinclair 5w30 full synthetic, and on and on if I am right. A very good GRP III

TRIAX is an interesting new entrant that I think is some eastern european lubricants that I have no clue about for quality etc. I say be careful there.

RLI 5wXX HD LA is amazing for engines with issues. I don't recommend anything unless I know exactly what the problem is in that engine and verified by analysis. Show me your oil analysis and I might be able to advise. If you are using some currently unknown unverified TRIAX then RLI would be a safe KNOWN in comparison.

Time2gofishing1980 · November 20, 2021

On 11/17/2021 at 3:35 PM, customboss said:

Joe, your insolubles are way too high for this XOM 0w20 and this engine design. Its not normal insolubles or iron wear. Have you change out the air filter yet?

The aluminum is piston and bearing alloys that are being micro abraded by the soots/insolubles.

The PF66 oil filter is NOT trapping all those insolubles the engine is making. On a healthy fresh after-treated DEF design diesel insolubles should be 0.

20 ppm of iron is high for this design @ 19,000 miles of use so 56ppm of FE sucks and Bklabs missed that effect!......So I would recommend changing out the OEM original air filter to get more air flow and make less soot.

What diesel fuel are you running and what is available in your market? Do you add anything to the diesel fuel?

There is a manganese trace that is fuel related that should NOT be there.

Hi! This post really took off . Lots of words and ****** it don’t understand…

I haven’t changed the oem air filter yet. I certainly can do so if you believe it can help.

I run oem dexosD bought from local dealerships along with the oem filter. I change Oil when the oil life monitor his sub 15%. I run Amsoil in my Indian motorcycle and can make the switch to Amsoil if you believe it beneficial.

I almost always fill up at a local Shell truck stop. This is a high volume diesel station. When I say almost always, I mean 90% of the time I hit this diesel station. I do not add anything to the fuel during the summer or winter.

The truck has a light duty plow in the winter. The plow and mount weighs about 500lbs and I load about 800lbs of ballast in the bed. During the summer it pulls a boat frequently weighing about 2600lbs.

I just did another oil change at 34k but didn’t capture oil for analysis. I’ll grab some from my next change.

Grumpy Bear · November 20, 2021

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Keep washing your hands, ROGER..... LOL

You might want to take a new look at the newer QuakerState full synthetic for a good low cost alternative to Dexos1 Gen 2 and SOON 3 options.

Kirkland I think is made by Warren Performance Products still I think? That is MAG1 formulation, Sinclair 5w30 full synthetic, and on and on if I am right. A very good GRP III

TRIAX is an interesting new entrant that I think is some eastern european lubricants that I have no clue about for quality etc. I say be careful there.

RLI 5wXX HD LA is amazing for engines with issues. I don't recommend anything unless I know exactly what the problem is in that engine and verified by analysis. Show me your oil analysis and I might be able to advise. If you are using some currently unknown unverified TRIAX then RLI would be a safe KNOWN in comparison......

Kirkland is a Warren Oil product.

It's been less than a year since I quite using QSUD. This stuff is like my yearly prostate PSA test. When the test was done, the Doc says, you were fine but what happened five minutes after that :dunno: Ditto RLHP. Dave tells me the formula has not changed in 20 years as of our last conference say six months ago. I'm not testing every day to keep everyone honest.

The issue with the 2.4 is low oil ring oil transport. Not enough return area. Oil sits in the land an cooks like a turkey until the ring sticks. GM knows. Lied about fixing it then dumped the motor. Can't give you a UAO as my guy retired and who's left isn't doing the test I would like to see or you need.

I started using the TRIAX booster in the Kirkland oil to free the stuck oil rings. Which it did. I could not find a reasonable supply of Valvoline Blue and the GM cleaner only works for an oil change or two.

Kirkland was chosen on price and VOA as an oil I could "pour through the motor" as if it was being tossed on the ground. At it's worst point it was at a quart in 600 miles. This witches brew took it back over 10,000 miles per quart. Each time I got to a softer 'maintenance ratio' (10:1) and a few changes latter gulp gulp gulp. I have it cleaned up once more and she's doing well and after consult with TRIAX I'll stay at 5:1. It's primarily a detergent package. The total unit pricing allows me to cut my OCI in half and still be cheaper than a high detergent RLHP for example on double the OCI.

Best option is to rebuild with pistons from Seal Power to Jaspers 3rd land spec and be done with it. But at 150K miles not likely to happen. I'll run it till the cats die and push it off a cliff. :crackup: This will never be a long haul motor in GM tune and build. Pitiful design of both piston/ring and PCV system.

I'm fairly certain the QSUD would have worked well enough on shorter OCI's from the get. 80K is about what the limit on these motors with most oils at 5K OCI's before the rings stick. To that point they are oil tight. We have a second 2.4 in the wife's 2014 Buick that has but 14K on the clock. That one is a Red Line HP motor from the day I brought her home. 5K OCIs. It will work or it won't. Either way, tis my last Ecotec 2.4.

When the lock down began lot shopping was an activity we could do safely. The number of 2.4's on lots with blown rings and plugged PCV system is unreal. They got away with it.

Better give the OP's thread back to him