2020 3.0 Duramax 1st Blackstone Report

customboss · December 1, 2021

Liquid filtration is complex and not intuitive. For instance bypass filtration takes a small % of the lubricant and filters more fine however can miss larger particles.

Why HD diesel engines who run bypass filters still need full flow filtration because one or the other can become " full " for lack of a better term. So you Amsoil and toilet paper Frantz filter people can have the finest filters as bypass and if you ignore or neglect your full flow filter can be screwing up your engine.

At Cummins we relied on a balance for Fleetguard ( now Cummins Filtration) for optimum filtering with max flow. Focusing on max full flow filtration with engineered medias that exceed paper or traditional filters while flowing a lot of fuel or lubricant.

Media is critical too. A good full flow filter that can nominally remove 30-40 um can potentially filter better than a filter that removes 20 or less but loads early and the media structure is loaded or changed and that liquid movement is impeded not FLIPPING OFF or HOLDING the particles.

Its kinda like FLOW vs PRESSURE. PRESSURE is not good in performance engines or any engine really. At GM/Oldsmobile motorsports we searched for high FLOW ( cooling, oil volume, minimum operating film thickness MOFT, and optimum filtering flow rate ) vs high pressure that makes a jug monkey feel good by looking at a gauge vs engine feeling good operating lubricated, cooling, and not allowing moving parts to touch).

Whats a quart micron?

From what I can see going forward and what I studied in 40 years of engineering R&D that we put on the track or road filtering is still insurance NOT A BANDAID FOR SCREWED UP power cylinder performance. In other words burn clean and stress less.

Centrifuged filters can work really efficiently but overkill unless you are talking hydraulics that get no combustion events felt by the lubricant and filters.

COMBUSTION is your target everything else in an IC engine is secondary. Not unimportant but secondary.

newdude · December 1, 2021

On 11/24/2021 at 12:36 PM, customboss said:

For both you 3.0L TD oil analysis posters we may have a timing belt stretch issue where injection timing is being messed up ever so slightly and making too much soot and fuels dilution.

On 11/24/2021 at 11:15 PM, customboss said:

Recently I was shocked that Injection timing on GM diesels that incorporate timing belts can be off with no MIL code set and that evidence came from another customers diesel engine that for the life of us we could not figure out the fuels dilute and soot issues that made higher wear readings. Change your injection timing and nothing else will come into control. I am not saying thats the issue but if your air filter is not restricted at all then you have another cause. Belts can stretch and not show any other issues.

Just for some clarification on the 3.0TD. There is a belt, it's for the oil pump. Belt is mounted at the rear of the engine.

High pressure injection pump is CHAIN driven at the rear of the engine as well, on its own dedicated timing chain. Also out back is the camshaft timing chain.

Unless there is somehow some premature chain stretch going on, there should be no stretch present for quite some time.

customboss · December 1, 2021

6 hours ago, newdude said:

Just for some clarification on the 3.0TD. There is a belt, it's for the oil pump. Belt is mounted at the rear of the engine.

High pressure injection pump is CHAIN driven at the rear of the engine as well, on its own dedicated timing chain. Also out back is the camshaft timing chain.

Unless there is somehow some premature chain stretch going on, there should be no stretch present for quite some time.

Thanks for clarification newdude! I stand corrected and agree the chain should not stretch that fast.

As an analyst I saw every damn engine out there for 40 years and on the 3.0T I was not up to speed in that design aspect. Reason I brought it up is I have seen the 2.0 GM diesel have issues with its timing belt out of the factory. Higher soot and high fuels dilute with associated wear rates for no reason on brand new low mileage units.

If you are a GM tech or have access to GM parts info can you message me about confirming my 2.7 Turbo is the 420 Tq version? I will try to post the engine data here in a moment.

Edited December 2, 2021 by customboss

newdude · December 1, 2021

23 minutes ago, customboss said:

Thanks for clarification newdude! I stand corrected and agree the chain should not stretch that fast.

As an analyst I saw every damn engine out there for 40 years and on the 3.0T I was not up to speed in that design aspect. Reason I brought it up is I have seen the 2.0 GM diesel have issues with its timing belt out of the factory. Higher soot and high fuels dilute with associated wear rates for no reason on brand new low mileage units.

If you are a GM tech or have access to GM parts info can you message me about confirming my 2.7 Turbo is the 420 Tq version? I will try to post the engine data here in a moment.

The HO 2.7T hasn't been launched yet. The 2022 refresh trucks have it, not the LTD old body 2022.

customboss · December 1, 2021

5 minutes ago, newdude said:

The HO 2.7T hasn't been launched yet. The 2022 refresh trucks have it, not the LTD old body 2022.

Thanks. What code on the engine part # proves that? VIN makes no distinction.

Can you help me decode that engine plate info to confirm that?

My dealer service manager says its a HO and I want to trust but verify. Feel free to message me so we don't hijack this thread.

Reason I ask is I can climb extremely steep hills in manual forced 8th gear and it accelerates up here at 9000'. If its a 348Tq its got more guts than one would think.

Thanks in advance.

Grumpy Bear · December 1, 2021

2 hours ago, customboss said:

Liquid filtration is complex and not intuitive. For instance bypass filtration takes a small % of the lubricant and filters more fine however can miss larger particles.

Why HD diesel engines who run bypass filters still need full flow filtration because one or the other can become " full " for lack of a better term. So you Amsoil and toilet paper Frantz filter people can have the finest filters as bypass and if you ignore or neglect your full flow filter can be screwing up your engine.

At Cummins we relied on a balance for Fleetguard ( now Cummins Filtration) for optimum filtering with max flow. Focusing on max full flow filtration with engineered medias that exceed paper or traditional filters while flowing a lot of fuel or lubricant.

Media is critical too. A good full flow filter that can nominally remove 30-40 um can potentially filter better than a filter that removes 20 or less but loads early and the media structure is loaded or changed and that liquid movement is impeded not FLIPPING OFF or HOLDING the particles.

Its kinda like FLOW vs PRESSURE. PRESSURE is not good in performance engines or any engine really. At GM/Oldsmobile motorsports we searched for high FLOW ( cooling, oil volume, minimum operating film thickness MOFT, and optimum filtering flow rate ) vs high pressure that makes a jug monkey feel good by looking at a gauge vs engine feeling good operating lubricated, cooling, and not allowing moving parts to touch).

Whats a quart micron?

From what I can see going forward and what I studied in 40 years of engineering R&D that we put on the track or road filtering is still insurance NOT A BANDAID FOR SCREWED UP power cylinder performance. In other words burn clean and stress less.

Centrifuged filters can work really efficiently but overkill unless you are talking hydraulics that get no combustion events felt by the lubricant and filters.

COMBUSTION is your target everything else in an IC engine is secondary. Not unimportant but secondary.

I wasn't suggesting anyone run ONLY a bypass system. My bad. I assumed it would be read as "In addition too". Never saw '' Run in lieu of" coming. Boy my communication skills need constant focus.

I also never suggested anyone run a filter till it plugs because they have a bypass system. I need to cross those T's and dot those I's more carefully.

So let's try again and see if I learned anything about asking a question.

Does the 2 mic setup work?

BTW, a typo I see. Quarter micron not quart micro. Make a note to proof read my proof read materials and check spell checks checks.

customboss · December 1, 2021

2 hours ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I wasn't suggesting anyone run ONLY a bypass system. My bad. I assumed it would be read as "In addition too". Never saw '' Run in lieu of" coming. Boy my communication skills need constant focus.

I also never suggested anyone run a filter till it plugs because they have a bypass system. I need to cross those T's and dot those I's more carefully.

So let's try again and see if I learned anything about asking a question.

Does the 2 mic setup work?

BTW, a typo I see. Quarter micron not quart micro. Make a note to proof read my proof read materials and check spell checks checks.

No Sir I did not think you meant run bypass without full flow, wasn't answering as if you did. Was explaining what I have tested and observed take place.

I assume very little when it comes to engineering my friend.

Amsoil bypass systems are made by a contractor that makes bypass filters so its not really amsoil per se as I understand filtration. If that is what you are asking?

PALL corp makes a lot of bypass and very fine filtering and yes in a system that needs tight filtering it can work well. Hydraulics and servos critical, engines not normally.

For an IC engine its not generally needed unless the engine produces a lot of insolubles or really crappy alloys! Modern engines, even compression engines, all run with EGR ( now run via valve system mostly) re-burn/regurgitate so much of that insoluble IMHO bypass is overkill or a waste. The engine oil is being used as a liquid filter/solvent to a degree.

I saw 0.5 um on PW jet engines but they had labyrinth seals that relied on liquid seal to ensure hot gasses staid on turbine side and oil was on other side. Literally liquid stabilized seals. I think GE and RR now use 1 um seals that are traditional on accessory drive on turbo jets as well as power shafts.

Hope that helps!

rbdjr · December 1, 2021

On 11/24/2021 at 11:15 PM, customboss said:

Raymond, if it was my 3.0L Turbo diesel I would act to make changes. I am retired from a 40+ year career of interpreting, testing, formulating lubricants, and fuels so I am sharing informed opinions here.

Your analysis is the second in the last 2 weeks of this engine design ( which is a good one) we have seen here that shows elevated levels of soot and fuels dilution, although the other fellas data had poor fuel reading because of that labs technology limitations. Your soot is in question based on their reporting method.

Recently I was shocked that Injection timing on GM diesels that incorporate timing belts can be off with no MIL code set and that evidence came from another customers diesel engine that for the life of us we could not figure out the fuels dilute and soot issues that made higher wear readings. Change your injection timing and nothing else will come into control. I am not saying thats the issue but if your air filter is not restricted at all then you have another cause. Belts can stretch and not show any other issues.

ExxonMobil Diesel Efficient what you are using? If so continue it has some great additives for cleaning etc. Its not high cetane but its adequate for your needs.

For now I DO NOT recommend adding any fuel additives and being in NJ the fuel should be winterized at least with flow improver from rack and may even have a cut of #1 diesel in it.

Your iron is not the problem, it's a symptom , the soot and fuels dilute is increasing normal wear rates.

Are you regenerating the DPF often? Another option is using the Amsoil DP 0w20 and see if that lowers wear by solving out the soot and protecting against the high fuels dilute.

You have the right idea but the frequent changes aren't mitigating the issue but maybe masking it. I am just looking at your data to say that.

Cheers

I called the company today-

The HORIZON® Team

Please contact [email protected] if you have any questions.

HORIZON® | www.eoilreports.com | 7451 Winton Drive | Indianapolis, IN 46268

and ask about the high iron count, soot, and fuel dilution, the fellow was very nice and helpfull, but I feel I just dont know enough about it to see it? He said the fuel dilution is nothing to worry about and completly normal for a engine with 9000 miles on it - he said as the engine braks in more the fuel dilution numbers will lower as the rings seat better, and then the iron also will drop as the rings fit the cylnders better. he told me could take up to 30k for the numbers to settle out, my question was that defeat the purpose of me testing the oil as to try to locate concerns before they get

Catastrophic? He told me my numbers were normal and no concern for the miles? I also ask about the soot, he said less than .1% is normal and no worries. So I ask when should I re check my oil again, he said next servie interval, I then said It wont really tell me anything because he told me break in can take up to 35,000 miles on the 3.0 duramax engine. then he said I should analyse it every service . Not the plan I had, I was hoping to catch a problem early before any damage or oil burning concerns and then sell it and buy another or get something different?

Here is the email I received after our phone converstaion.

The sample information update for lab number I-xxxxxx is now complete, and a new report will be available within the following hour. I would not be concerned about the iron content. If this engine only has six months of age, it is likely still within a break-in period (usually less than 1000 hours or 100,000 miles of operational use).

During this period, sliding surfaces of cast alloy components will go through an acclimation period due to varying thermal expansion. This may cause higher wear than a customer is accustomed to seeing on their respective engine. The wear should diminish or stabilize after a break-in period. Stabilization is defined by a linear increase of wear metal with respect to time accumulation on the oil (rate of wear). Keep in mind, the rate of wear may also be influenced by a user's driving habits, engine load/speed, operational environment, selected oil, and/or contaminants introduced to oil circulation

Edited December 2, 2021 by rbdjr

Grumpy Bear · December 2, 2021

24 minutes ago, rbdjr said:

I called the company today-

The HORIZON® Team

Please contact [email protected] if you have any questions.

HORIZON® | www.eoilreports.com | 7451 Winton Drive | Indianapolis, IN 46268

and ask about the high iron count, soot, and fuel dilution, the fellow was very nice and helpfull, but I feel I just dont know enough about it to see it? He said the fuel dilution is nothing to worry about and completly normal for a engine with 9000 miles on it - he said as the engine braks in more the fuel dilution numbers will lower as the rings seat better, and then the iron also will drop as the rings fit the cylnders better. he told me could take up to 30k for the numbers to settle out, my question was that defeat the purpose of me testing the oil as to try to locate concerns before they get

Catastrophic? He told me my numbers were normal and no concern for the miles? I also ask about the soot, he said less than .1% is normal and no worries. So I ask when should I re check my oil again, he said next servie interval, I then said It wont really tell me anything because he told me break in can take up to 35,000 miles on the 3.0 duramax engine. then he said I should analyse it every service . Not the plan I had, I was hoping to catch a problem early before any damage or oil burning concerns and then sell it and buy another or get something different?

I know @customboss is going to have a whole different take on this from a chemistry view but statistically this is in my wheelhouse. . To analyze data you have to have data. Not cracking wise and I mean no disrespect here but, allot of people think a singe data point tells you something more than it does. It requires a trend to paint a picture.

Pretend your a pitching scout and you watch me throw one pitch. It's a nice pitch. Down the pipe and 104 mph. What does that tell you about me as a pitcher? Nothing. Watch me pitch a game. Then a season....the more data you have the better you 'see' the thing you are looking at. How's my slider? Can I paint the box effectively? How do I respond to pressure.

It's changes in trend that give the most information 'predictively'. A single point is driving in the review mirror. Ya know what it did but not why and not what its statistically likely to do.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Grumpy Bear

customboss · December 2, 2021

50 minutes ago, rbdjr said:

I called the company today-

The HORIZON® Team

Please contact [email protected] if you have any questions.

HORIZON® | www.eoilreports.com | 7451 Winton Drive | Indianapolis, IN 46268

and ask about the high iron count, soot, and fuel dilution, the fellow was very nice and helpfull, but I feel I just dont know enough about it to see it? He said the fuel dilution is nothing to worry about and completly normal for a engine with 9000 miles on it - he said as the engine braks in more the fuel dilution numbers will lower as the rings seat better, and then the iron also will drop as the rings fit the cylnders better. he told me could take up to 30k for the numbers to settle out, my question was that defeat the purpose of me testing the oil as to try to locate concerns before they get

Catastrophic? He told me my numbers were normal and no concern for the miles? I also ask about the soot, he said less than .1% is normal and no worries. So I ask when should I re check my oil again, he said next servie interval, I then said It wont really tell me anything because he told me break in can take up to 35,000 miles on the 3.0 duramax engine. then he said I should analyse it every service . Not the plan I had, I was hoping to catch a problem early before any damage or oil burning concerns and then sell it and buy another or get something different?

Raymond, sadly the Polaris labs analysts ( thats most labs) you'll speak to are not up to task about engines analysis. Anyone who can interpret properly is old, retired, or under NDA from their employer not to speak.

Or they are like Blackstone labs and give you "feel good " info thats not actionable.

For years I tried to offer oil analysis to consumers but very few were willing to pay for actionable informative oil analysis.

I'm retired so I don't want to be interpreting every sample someone pulls here but suffice it to say your engine is not going to blow up, you don't need to dump the truck! We just need to help you tighten up the regimen and optimize it.

It's still wearing-in to an analytical degree but that result tells me it needs so attention. Trends and statistical analysis are for not knowing about what something should be. If you KNOW what certain metallurgy should look like with certain lubes and fuels you can see where a unit ought to be in 1 analysis, then act on that and follow up to confirm we didn't miss something.

When I did forensic expert witness work I many times had one sample to work with. I never lost a court case because of my interpretation of even the oppositions data. I loved interpreting their own in house info. I also had forensic mechanics tear down engines that had issues and withheld that info until AFTER I offered the interpretation of the oil and most of time I was spot on. Thanks to the USN and US Army for excellent training then 38 years of doing the science.

Anyone want to buy my domain name and IP let me know. I wish someone would before I pass and its lost.

Also Raymond when you sampled had it just regenerated the DPF ?

rbdjr · December 2, 2021

I have put a little over 9400 miles on this truck in just under 6 months, I can only say MAYBE, I could smell a unusal smell when I came to a stop after some highay miles, To be totaly honest I think I have used approx 7.5 gals of DEF to date and cant say I know for sure when it ever regenerated? As no message or light, was told if you stop during a regen it will pick up where left off when temp and conditions are met again? So I really have no idea. I did take the oil sample posted after approx a 8 mile ride at 55 mph, then pulled in and drained the oil/

Edited December 2, 2021 by rbdjr

customboss · December 2, 2021

If me I would change the air filter out to be safe and get optimum air flow to lower soot and fuels dilute.

In 9400 miles in NJ roads, especially urban or turnpike you are going to have more dust and grit in that air filter, especially in a turbo-ed diesel/compression engine. To prove that theory above your oil analysis results pull the old filter hold dirty side over black felt and tap. Look at trash in black felt.

Get best quality fuel you can and follow up analysis again to see if it makes a change, if not enough change oil brand to Amsoil DP 0w20 to attack from oil side. Black02Silverado is your best contact for Amsoil at a great price for us members here.

rbdjr · December 2, 2021

1 hour ago, customboss said:

If me I would change the air filter out to be safe and get optimum air flow to lower soot and fuels dilute.

In 9400 miles in NJ roads, especially urban or turnpike you are going to have more dust and grit in that air filter, especially in a turbo-ed diesel/compression engine. To prove that theory above your oil analysis results pull the old filter hold dirty side over black felt and tap. Look at trash in black felt.

Get best quality fuel you can and follow up analysis again to see if it makes a change, if not enough change oil brand to Amsoil DP 0w20 to attack from oil side. Black02Silverado is your best contact for Amsoil at a great price for us members here.

Running Amsoil since I sent last sample, next analysis will be with the amsoil 0w-20 we will see how it does then, I will throw a new air filter in but Im in the country side of north western NJ, more trees than people believe it or not, air filter rated for approx 30k but I will throw one in better to be safe than sorry. Filters and oil are small price to pay for the long term of todays vehicles.

I teach Auto in a vocational HS, for the last 11 years, previous to that worked in a GM dealership as a tech for 36 years. I have a bit of gm durmax experiance and gas engine under my belt lol. 6.6 bottom ends were always rock solid even with fuel dilution,(saw it bubble out the valve covers and do drain and refill and injectors and they still went 250k. But this 3.0 is a new beast and not sure what they are made out of for long haul?

Thanks again for your advise.

Thanks rbdjr