Torco Oil

VicFirth · November 4, 2023

It's very easy to get caught up in product data sheet values, base oil and additive systems etc. I occasionally fall into that trap. There is also a legitimate reason why knowing more about the composition of an oil can also be a gauge of quality.

One of things I have picked up on though that is the common theme across the board is balance and validation. What looks good on paper could absolutely have formulation weaknesses. A concoction of 18 or more ingredients leaves plenty of room for that.

Mobil has recently stated this publicly in an article that what separates them from others is their extensive testing. I'm talking about 500 blends a month and 50 racing blends per NASCAR season. Invaluable. Amsoil now has their own in-house testing facility. In the Gale Banks video, Dan Peterson mentioned how the dewpoint-controlled room allowed them to get the deposit chemistry on point. I did have someone also say that's BS so I don't know if it's absolutely true. Either way, it's an example of how much of a balancing act formulating oils is.

I want to not like Amsoil lol. Don't like the MLM approach. The data they show on certain tests I think is valuable and great indication of quality.

For those smaller brands like Torco or Red Line, that don't have this level of testing, they're going to have to rely more on UOAs from racing etc. and the additive supplier.

The guy in this video says several times how much of a challenge it is to get things just right.

I'm actually impressed with Torco's website and how transparent they are. They may have the best website. Their oils also look very good.

Edited November 4, 2023 by VicFirth

Grumpy Bear · November 4, 2023

When I first started in the business the research aim was continuous improvement. By the time I left it was cost cutting and focus groups. The goal today is EPA compliance. None of this has anything to do with best product. It's why outfits like Red Line, MPT, HPL and Torco exist. All these are deep into testing.

VicFirth · November 5, 2023

I found this interesting in regard to the lower ash levels in modern oils:

"Cleanliness is difficult to achieve in a modern engine oil formulation due to limits placed on ash containing componentry (e.g., overbased detergents) which are used to prevent formation of deposits. These ash limits are in place to reduce blockage of diesel particulate filters and limit the amount of an overbased detergent that may be used in a given engine oil formulation. One method of overcoming this limit is through the use of ashless cleanliness boosters. Some of these materials which are commercially available include alkyl phenol ether polymers, polyisobutylene polymers and ashless detergent chemistries."

Grumpy Bear · November 5, 2023

3 minutes ago, VicFirth said:

I found this interesting in regard to the lower ash levels in modern oils:

"Cleanliness is difficult to achieve in a modern engine oil formulation due to limits placed on ash containing componentry (e.g., overbased detergents) which are used to prevent formation of deposits. These ash limits are in place to reduce blockage of diesel particulate filters and limit the amount of an overbased detergent that may be used in a given engine oil formulation. One method of overcoming this limit is through the use of ashless cleanliness boosters. Some of these materials which are commercially available include alkyl phenol ether polymers, polyisobutylene polymers and ashless detergent chemistries."

Yes, that is one way. Or just good old fashion polar bases. Esters, Estolides (plant based esters). 175,000 miles on this unit. Red Line HP, a POE and PAO. Let the base do the heavy lifting.

These additives in gas motors are used because they are cheaper than using the proper bases. COST not effectiveness.

VicFirth · November 5, 2023

2 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Yes, that is one way. Or just good old fashion polar bases. Esters, Estolides (plant based esters). 175,000 miles on this unit. Red Line HP, a POE and PAO. Let the base do the heavy lifting.

These additives in gas motors are used because they are cheaper than using the proper bases. COST not effectiveness.

I agree. If you removed the restrictions these formulators are faced with, I suspect that most oil formulators would prefer a good old fashion PAO/III/POE/AN full SAPs motor oil. It's hard to beat that combination.

Grumpy Bear · November 5, 2023

I believe people like to make oil harder than it is. They like to complicate a hammer so to speak. Not sure why but it seems to be a human thing. There just isn't that much truly new 'stuff'. We keep rehashing what was tried and discarded and discarding what was tested and true. I said I didn't know why but I do. Everyone is trying to get a slice of the same pie. Some do this via MLM that tears down others to elevate itself. Others attack isolated facts that in practice have no value other than academic.

Red Line EURO is a low add (TBN), low SAPS POE/PAO oil. Just an example that this isn't one or the other when it comes to blending. It can also be this plus that, or that minus this.

Outside particulate filter I don't shy away from even full SAPS oils.

Every oil that gets an API license is fully tested by the exact same methods everyone else is using for that specification. You have a private engine lab to do other tests? Fine. Some use taxi or police fleets or OTR fleets. Some race. Everyone tests. Some run BMW's on rooftops for a million miles to simulate a service no street motor will ever see. Fluff, smoke and mirrors.

COST is the driver for commodity products. Performance is the driver for performance products...... and GREED is the driver for those few oils PQIA red flags as dog p*** in a bottle.

VicFirth · November 5, 2023

8 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

I believe people like to make oil harder than it is. They like to complicate a hammer so to speak. Not sure why but it seems to be a human thing. There just isn't that much truly new 'stuff'. We keep rehashing what was tried and discarded and discarding what was tested and true. I said I didn't know why but I do. Everyone is trying to get a slice of the same pie. Some do this via MLM that tears down others to elevate itself. Others attack isolated facts that in practice have no value other than academic.

Red Line EURO is a low add (TBN), low SAPS POE/PAO oil. Just an example that this isn't one or the other when it comes to blending. It can also be this plus that, or that minus this.

Outside particulate filter I don't shy away from even full SAPS oils.

Every oil that gets an API license is fully tested by the exact same methods everyone else is using for that specification. You have a private engine lab to do other tests? Fine. Some use taxi or police fleets or OTR fleets. Some race. Everyone tests. Some run BMW's on rooftops for a million miles to simulate a service no street motor will ever see. Fluff, smoke and mirrors.

COST is the driver for commodity products. Performance is the driver for performance products...... and GREED is the driver for those few oils PQIA red flags as dog p*** in a bottle.