Torco Oil

OnTheReel · October 30, 2023

4 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Hmmm so what would you go with, Amsoil SS, Torco, Red Line or HPL? Tough decision.

I’d take any of them over a shelf oil in a heartbeat. For me…the Torco is cost prohibitive, at least for now. It’s pick ‘em between Red Line and HPL. Have HPL in the sump right now. Will know in a few weeks if there’s any real difference in how it performs vs the Red Line.

Frankly it took a lot to get me off my Red Line kick and try HPL in the first place, but Grump was good at sparking my curiosity with it. The practical knowledge from running and sampling any of these brands is worth way more than marketing and “bench racing” them.

Grumpy Bear · October 30, 2023

4 hours ago, diyer2 said:

Or https://mptindustries.com/product-category/thirty-k-full-synthetic-high-performance-motor-oils/

Or https://www.triaxlubricants.com/gasoline-engine-oils

TRIAX_SYNERGY_SRT_Full_Synthetic_Oils_-_SDS-1.pdf (triaxlubricants.com)

When you read the cover marketing it would appear this oil is a PAO/Ester but when you dig deeper it is a Group III with a ever so small amount of PAO and Ester. Which in and of itself is fine except it is priced like the cover story and it isn't what it seems. I guess the good thing is that it contains no Group II like a Dexos1Gen2 fluid is allowed.

Note section 3 of the linked MSDS.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

VicFirth · October 31, 2023

It's companies like that I avoid. TriboDyn is another one. There is a lot of snake oil in the marketplace. Many of the smaller boutique brands are using yesterday's technology, boosted.

VicFirth · October 31, 2023

Here's a nice looking oil.

Red Line Euro

Edited October 31, 2023 by VicFirth

Grumpy Bear · October 31, 2023

3 hours ago, VicFirth said:

Here's a nice looking oil.

Red Line Euro

What I've been running in Pepper! :thumbs:

Read the English part Heavy use of Esters (NPG/POE) and PAO does the heavy lifting. I don't push it as far as some. 5K keeps the BN higher than the AN.

Edited October 31, 2023 by Grumpy Bear

diyer2 · November 1, 2023

I have recently decided 5K miles on oil is a good number. Thinking of going to 5K OCI's with our Hyundai Santa Fe, currently doing 4K OCI's using Amsoil OE oil marketed as a 7500 mile oil.

The severe duty mileage for this car is 3750 and we qualify for severe duty use, thus the 4k OCI's. I'm thinking the Amsoil OE oil can handle 5K OCI's. I know a UOA would be wise.

Grumpy Bear · November 1, 2023

On 10/30/2023 at 1:58 PM, VicFirth said:

Thanks, they look like a solid company. I've heard of them but never paid any attention to their oil.

The History of Torco - TorcoUSA

VicFirth · November 2, 2023

I agree that Torco may be the most transparent out there. Oddly enough I haven't seen any UOA or VOA of their oils, lately. There are some on BITOG but you have to go back a bit.

Amsoil's contradictory and MLM ways is a turnoff to me. But if I'm being truly honest about them, they do provide you with the most testing data among all of them.

Thoughts?

What's The Best Synthetic Motor Oil? - AMSOIL Blog

Edited November 2, 2023 by VicFirth

diyer2 · November 2, 2023

My thoughts.

I have always used off the shelf oil but I changed it more than most do. I tried Amsoil in an ATV as an experiment, it made a difference.

I don't get as scientific as you and Grumpy do, I go by seat of the pants.

I'm happy with Amsoil products so I see no reason to spend more money.

KARNUT · November 2, 2023

I’ve never lost an engine from a brand of oil. After going extended with Amsoil in 80s in our vehicles and ROW equipment same result no engine failure. Hydraulic and transmission failure we did have with other oils were eliminated by using Amsoil. This is with hundreds of equipment dozens of vehicles including heavy pulling trucks. In extreme duty conditions. Im sure many oils have came close to or even caught Amsoil. It’s in my old truck. It has 182K miles on it, it’s a 02. It has Amsoil In extreme conditions I’m going with Amsoil. It isn’t the only one I use anymore. I don’t change my own oil in all my rides anymore. I just change more often.

Edited November 2, 2023 by KARNUT

Grumpy Bear · November 2, 2023

2 hours ago, VicFirth said:

I agree that Torco may be the most transparent out there. Oddly enough I haven't seen any UOA or VOA of their oils, lately. There are some on BITOG but you have to go back a bit.

Amsoil's contradictory and MLM ways is a turnoff to me. But if I'm being truly honest about them, they do provide you with the most testing data among all of them.

Thoughts?

What's The Best Synthetic Motor Oil? - AMSOIL Blog

Look those lists over carefully. Let's look at the top picture. Bearing wear. Click on that photo so you can see the fine print. Signature Series is test against an 'unknown LEANDING SEMISYNTHETIC' or in other words a group II mineral oil with a generic low level add package. Tell ya what...cherry picking is not scientific testing. Tell ya something else; I've never in my 70 years on earth seen a bearing like that in a motor that was properly maintained and adult driven not even on the oils of the 60's. I have seen it when happen if it runs out of oil or a guy doesn't change it.

Once I've been lied to and deception is a lie......your out of here. But as you asked I'll do one more. TBN

Marketing has associated high TBN with the word 'better", so, when we see bigger we see better. It would be IF all oils used the same base oils and that is important. THEY DON'T.

All oils oxidize. But they don't produce the same amount of carboxylic acid. The acid formed when motor oil OXIDIZIES! The major acid we are trying to neutralize. Oil oxidation produces Carbonyl groups which show up as oxidation in FTIR testing. Here's a link for a detailed explanation: The Lowdown on Oil Breakdown | Machinery Lubrication

Point is the fewer reactive sites and the higher the initiation temperature the fewer of these acids are formed thus fewer Rolaids are required to settle her stomach.

Antioxidants (Of which one form of ZDDP is among) combine with superior base oils limits the formation of these acids. Some of the most resistant oils then have very low initial base numbers. Not because they are inferior but because they don't require such high levels and will deplete very slowly over a REASONABLE OCI. Nothing to feed on. A TBN test standing alone is useless. Worse than useless, it is deceitful.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Grumpy Bear
additional content

KARNUT · November 2, 2023

30 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Look those lists over carefully. Let's look at the top picture. Bearing wear. Click on that photo so you can see the fine print. Signature Series is test against an 'unknown LEANDING SEMISYNTHETIC' or in other words a group II mineral oil with a generic low level add package. Tell ya what...cherry picking is not scientific testing. Tell ya something else; I've never in my 70 years on earth seen a bearing like that in a motor that was properly maintained and adult driven not even on the oils of the 60's. I have seen it when happen if it runs out of oil or a guy doesn't change it.

Once I've been lied to and deception is a lie......your out of here. But as you asked I'll do one more. TBN

Marketing has associated high TBN with the word 'better", so, when we see bigger we see better. It would be IF all oils used the same base oils and that is important. THEY DON'T.

All oils oxidize. But they don't produce the same amount of carboxylic acid. The acid formed when motor oil OXIDIZIES! The major acid we are trying to neutralize. Oil oxidation produces Carbonyl groups which show up as oxidation in FTIR testing. Here's a link for a detailed explanation: The Lowdown on Oil Breakdown | Machinery Lubrication

Point is the fewer reactive sites and the higher the initiation temperature the fewer of these acids are formed thus fewer Rolaids are required to settle her stomach.

Antioxidants (Of which one form of ZDDP is among) combine with superior base oils limits the formation of these acids. Some of the most resistant oils then have very low initial base numbers. Not because they are inferior but because they don't require such high levels and will deplete very slowly over a REASONABLE OCI. Nothing to feed on. A TBN test standing alone is useless. Worse than useless, it is deceitful.

Im confused. Is Amsoil fudging results. I haven’t drunk the kool-aid. My experience ended in the 2000s for heavy duty use along with most of my self servicing my vehicles. As much as Amsoil save our business money through the 80s-2000s. It would be sad if they got greedy and quality suffered. It reminds me of Red Wing boots. I wore them for many years. No break in needed. Very comfortable and durable. My last pair I couldn’t wear. I asked the dealer what happened? They changed manufacture.

VicFirth · November 2, 2023

44 minutes ago, Grumpy Bear said:

Look those lists over carefully. Let's look at the top picture. Bearing wear. Click on that photo so you can see the fine print. Signature Series is test against an 'unknown LEANDING SEMISYNTHETIC' or in other words a group II mineral oil with a generic low level add package. Tell ya what...cherry picking is not scientific testing. Tell ya something else; I've never in my 70 years on earth seen a bearing like that in a motor that was properly maintained and adult driven not even on the oils of the 60's. I have seen it when happen if it runs out of oil or a guy doesn't change it.

Once I've been lied to and deception is a lie......your out of here. But as you asked I'll do one more. TBN

Marketing has associated high TBN with the word 'better", so, when we see bigger we see better. It would be IF all oils used the same base oils and that is important. THEY DON'T.

All oils oxidize. But they don't produce the same amount of carboxylic acid. The acid formed when motor oil OXIDIZIES! The major acid we are trying to neutralize. Oil oxidation produces Carbonyl groups which show up as oxidation in FTIR testing. Here's a link for a detailed explanation: The Lowdown on Oil Breakdown | Machinery Lubrication

Point is the fewer reactive sites and the higher the initiation temperature the fewer of these acids are formed thus fewer Rolaids are required to settle her stomach.

Antioxidants (Of which one form of ZDDP is among) combine with superior base oils limits the formation of these acids. Some of the most resistant oils then have very low initial base numbers. Not because they are inferior but because they don't require such high levels and will deplete very slowly over a REASONABLE OCI. Nothing to feed on. A TBN test standing alone is useless. Worse than useless, it is deceitful.

It's not the first time Amsoil has misled with their testing either. The results they achieved on the IIIH test though are impressive, as are the results of the GM Turbo test.

I ordered HPL for my next change. I have to say though I'm quite impressed with Torco. They went under my radar all these years.

Edited November 2, 2023 by VicFirth

customboss · November 2, 2023

diyer2 is correct.. test your oil if you care how that chosen chemistry is desired.

He tests his oil by observation of visual loss of coolant, oil, smell of fuel in the crankcase volume and tail pipe soot, smoke, moisture etc.

I have always tested by that way AND because I was in the business of using INDEPENDENT ( until I worked at Cummins engine company at their R&D/T technology center in Indiana) standardized testing of engine oil, fuels, and materials, with verification by going to teardown analysis to verify the lab and exhaust samples. That access and career informs my comments.

Voluminous posters here think that asking a manufactorer of a given chemistry will tell the customer what they want to know about a chemistry.

Or finding internet data will confirm the marketing data. WRONG. May make you feel good but its not science nor will ANY manufacturer ever tell you their full chemistry. Every product will change with every mass raw materials buy. Those buys are usually railroad car sized.

Finally cost vs benefit has to be taken into account. Amsoil has a balanced approach to all that and is shipped at good prices to your mailbox or door.

Of note my 2.7L 2022 LTD L3B uses oil on almost a time and mileage clock beginning at about ~4000 miles and consuming a quart at nearly ~7000 miles. I have posted my theories of the reasoning for that on the 2.7L turbo thread. NO MATTER WHICH OIL IS USED.

OnTheReel brings up the efficacy of cost vs benefit and having seen his truck MOPAR V8 in analysis I agree with his concerns about cost vs benefit. His 6.4L and all the GM AFM V8 will have serious valve train issues confirmed by high wear rates in supposedly healthy engines.

The VVT components of these engine families are made by the same suppliers and are NOT holding up in GM, Stellantis, Ford V8's. Its a chronic problem that NO engine oil will save but might lower the wear rates. Amsoil again seems to show stellar performance in that regard.

Torco is a small player that does blend its products in California and does a great job but in my testing way over additized for modern engines that really have low contact pressures on ferritic components.

Unless you test a product IN YOUR ENGINE, transmission, gearbox, differential, transfer case, you are guessing.

Look at performance if you test and regardless of what you choose as a product if wear is low, combustion efficiency is excellent, then use it!

I wish more folks would use good high quality oil analysis and share it here but since retirement and some disability issues I cannot any longer.

TEST verify THEN Trust.......

Grumpy Bear · November 2, 2023

33 minutes ago, customboss said:

Every product will change with every mass raw materials buy.

This is one of those statements that makes me pull my hair out. Its purpose is to cast doubt and cause fear. Yes, there is natural variation in everything. It implies that natural variations will change the chemistry enough to matter. No, actually to make the product seem unreliable and the consumer must be vigilant testing every bottle of oil he uses in his ride and every egg he puts in a cake, test every bottle of water before drinking. I don't do F.U.D. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt.

.

Intake QC is on my list of positions held in the oil/gas and chemical industry. Every raw material is tested and compared to a card which list the acceptable RANGE of variation that has been tested to the nth degree in carefully constructed lab trials (another position held) to assure that within that range the products made from that batch will conform to the processing and final QC results required to fulfil its license or specification. If not, it doesn't get off loaded. Much less used.

So, yes, the statement on face value is true. It is also irrelevant and misleading.

The entire point of manufactured molecules is the narrowing of this variation and elimination of weakness. Nobody invests hundreds of billions on equipment and process to make an inferior product.

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Or finding internet data will confirm the marketing data. WRONG.

The Internet, well used, is what we use now that the library has been handed its walking papers. The entire content of human knowledge is available. Does buying a SAE Tech Paper or a Doctorate Thesis online make it less true than bought with greenbacks and sent snail mail?

AMSOIL SS is a product that does rise above Walmart Shelf oil. But it is not the last stop the quality train makes either.

1 hour ago, customboss said:

Torco is a small player that does blend its products in California and does a great job but in my testing way over additized for modern engines that really have low contact pressures on ferritic components.

Blanket statements :shakehead: SX-8 is a Dexos1Gen2 API SP licensed oil. Torco makes a myriad of oils. Properly added for their INTENED applications.