A total let down-has anyone heard of this

[lisak421]

I'm really upset about my truck, 2002 Silverado, 35,000 miles on it. About 9 months ago I got a humming sound from the front left tire, nothing major, just sounded like a 4 x 4 truck. Dealer said alignment, didn't change it. Had tires checked, nothing wrong. A month ago I got a screeching sound in my right front tire, then loud clunking sounds out of the left when I was turning left, sounded like you were hitting bumps when you weren't. It was getting worse by the day. Took it to the dealer......he said secondary steering shaft needed to be greased...told him it's more than clicking in my steering......something was wrong in the suspension. Told him I needed someone to just drive it and tell me if it's dangerous...goood luck.....only if I left it. Everyday for 4 days I tried different dealers and no one would just drive it and tell me. Finally on the fourth day something let go. I drove to the dealer and screamed at the service guy to drive it. He did, only to go down the road a half mile and say we're going back, this is not good.

 

Here's what they found: Right bearing was shot, the loud clunking noise from the left tire turned out to be that my drivetrain was not aligned with the engine, and I broke some mounts off the engine and trans. They had to tear it apart and realign the drivetrain and install new mounts.

 

This truck has never been in an accident, nor does it go down dirt roads. How the **** did this happen???? Was it built like this???? They said it "shifted" How can it shift like that? Luckily, with 500 miles left on the warranty, it was covered. I had to take it back today because it drifts to the right, and I was bouncing at 40-55 mph. I was angry when I found out I had to pay for the alignment, I guess I expected them to do that after they tore it apart, and it was from the original problem.

 

Funny thing is the 4x4 humming sound is gone to.......go figure......I wonder if that sound was from everything "shifting"

 

I am going to get an extended warranty only because I'm afraid other mechanical parts could have been damaged from this ordeal. I almost want to sell it, guess cause I have lost faith, I love this truck so much, just don't know what to do.

 

Sorry I wrote a book here, guess I needed to vent to fellow truck owners who understand.

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or opinions, just don't know what I should do.

 

 

Lisa

[bigdogs]

I'd call and "talk" to GM customer service and see if you can get that extended warranty comp'd or atleast heavily discounted.

[03GMCinBC]

Wow...

 

After getting to the end of your post, I feel your pain!

 

I guessed wheel bearings right away at the beginning of the read, but didnt expect the end result you had.

 

good luck bro...

[PlanoSooner]

warrantees are negotiable.... just like the vehicle

[gnutruk]

Man oh man: broken engine and transmission mounts ?!?!? Well, that's just off the charts.

 

You've got a situation verging on "Defective Vehicle." Although you are almost certainly far beyond any 'Lemon Law' period (if your state has one in the first place), your negotiating position with GM for a complete freebie Extended Warranty is probably pretty good.

 

I'm sure I don't have to suggest that you hold onto every single piece of paper associated with this situation, and that you get absolutely everything in writing from here on forward.

 

Damage from a mis-aligned drivetrain could show up in many ways, at indeterminant points in the future. Firmly, but in a friendly manner, you might consider saying to the GM Regional Rep (who is qualified to make the call) that if or when any future problems show up -- even with downstream components such as u-joints, rear axle, etc. -- then you will have to think about opening an arbitration proceeding with the BBB.

 

Don't make it a threat. Just put it in terms that they can understand. Ask them how they would like it if it were THEIR vehicle!!

 

And as for you having to pay for the suspension alignment? With the kind of defect you had, it could easily be the case that undue stress was put on various suspension and steering components, resulting in the mis-alignment. Even if they won't refund your money directly -- which is generally asking for more than they are ever willing to do -- they can easily give you a credit in that amount of future, non-warranty, service work.

 

Hang in there and fight !

 

gnutruk

[lisak421]

Hey Guys,

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

Do you really think GM would give me a discounted warranty on this????

 

I really don't want to get rid of this truck, it's my baby that I've wanted for years. I talked with a salesmen yesterday. The only thing I could get that wouldn't cost anything is a lease, but then when I turn that in I'd be screwed because I wouldn't have enough money to put down on something else.

 

How does one go about contacting GM about this situation??

 

My biggest problem is being a woman and getting people to listen. In the past people treat you like you have no clue what your talking about, like the service manager did when I took it in the first time. By the way, I did get in his face after they found out what was wrong..............told him I guess it was more than a little grease could fix...............he never said one word.

 

I only have 500 miles to go before the original warranty is done, which will only take a week and half to put on. Guess I have to figure something out real fast.

 

Thanks again for your posts,

 

Lisa

[03GMCinBC]

OOOOOPPPSSSS....

 

Sorry Missy, my bad...

[gnutruk]

Hi Lisa :

 

I’ll have to write my own book in response to your situation, so I’ll divide it into four sections. This is also because there may be a maximum post size on this forum, and the whole thing could just bounce back if I sent it all at once.

 

A. Contact GM

B. The Alignment Problem

C. The Extended Warranty

D. The Lease Offer

 

Parts A and B follow :

 

A.

 

You asked:

“How does one go about contacting GM about this situation??”

 

There are GM Customer Assistance phone numbers and addresses toward the back of your “Light Duty Truck Warranty And Owner Assistance Information” booklet.

 

 

B.

 

It seems the problem you’re having with your truck is getting fixed. This sort of problem, after all, IS fixable even at a standard dealership -- that is, without needing the vehicle to be sent to a district or regional service center. HOWEVER; it may not get totally fixed the first time, as appears to be the case for you. So, as inconvenient as it is, keep bringing the vehicle back in until YOU are satisfied. DO NOT accept the service managers satisfaction as being acceptable to you if you truly aren’t happy with how the vehicle performs. Don’t worry too much about the fact that you are close to the end of your warranty period. As long as you have a complaint and/or repair in process, the warranty will cover it even after you go past 36,000.

 

GM’s specific language is as follows:

 

(quote)

TIME EXTENSIONS: The New Vehicle Limited Warranty will be extended one day for each day beyond the first 24 hour period in which you vehicle is at an authorized dealer facility for warranty service. You may be asked to show the repair orders to verify the period of time the warranty is to be extended. Your extension rights may vary depending on state law.

(close quote)

 

Therefore, if you take it back in because you detect that something is not just exactly right, and if it is not fixed, then get the truck back in there within 24 hours. Even if they refuse to accept it again for inspection or service, document that fact as constituting your good-faith effort to comply with the above contract terms. I know this can be very difficult and inconvenient, but there’s no getting around how important it is to jump through all the necessary hoops.

 

gnutruk

[gnutruk]

Hi Lisa :

 

I’ll have to write my own book in response to your situation, so I’ll divide it into four sections. This is also because there may be a maximum post size on this forum, and the whole thing could just bounce back if I sent it all at once.

 

A. Contact GM

B. The Alignment Problem

C. The Extended Warranty

D. The Lease Offer

 

Part C to follow :

 

C.

 

Yes, GM could give you a discounted extended warranty, or even a completely free extended warranty, depending on how resolutely you stand your ground. They were handing out free extended engine warranty’s left and right over the “cold start knock” issue for awhile -- some of the folks who regularly visit here (and other GM talk forums) were offered them. One argument you can make is that drivetrain components all work in balance, and some problems resulting from stress on other system components might not show up until a few more thousand miles.

 

For example, if a drive shaft gets knocked out of balance by getting high-centered on a boulder, then it is easily possible to experience future problems with the transmission and/or rear differential seals. But the seals might not start leaking until some time later. Admittedly, high-centering a vehicle cannot be covered under warranty, but it is a simple example to illustrate how all the parts work together, and have to be in balance. In this example, re-balancing -- or even replacing -- the drive shaft might not be adequate, in that the seals might start leaking. One important reason why GM periodically issues TSB’s (Technical Service Bulletins) is to get certain problems fixed BEFORE they start to affect other, related, so-called “downstream” components.

 

Tell them that you have legitimate concerns about currently unknown consequences of the original problem that could strand you in dangerous circumstances, and that providing you with an extended warranty will demonstrate their confidence in the quality of the repair they did. If they say; “It’s fixed. GM won’t authorize an extended warranty. End of discussion,” immediately ask if there is a mechanical reason why they won’t stand behind their work. Ask also what sorts of symptoms you should stay alert for in coming months and years, such as weird noises, a recurrence of steering problems, etc.. If they say there won’t be any symptoms, immediately ask for that in writing, on their company letterhead, signed and dated by the service manager.

 

Essentially, when you are engaged in a warranty situation or dispute relative to a written agreement, you are re-negotiating -- or, more precisely, further defining -- the terms of a contract. The warranty that GM placed on the specific VIN Number of your truck constitutes a formal, legally binding contract between you and the General Motors Corporation, enforceable under the statues of contract law of the various States. There also exist some specific aspects of Federal law that apply, but they do not customarily enter into simple situations like this. To a very, very limited extent, the service managers at the dealerships are in effect authorized to operate on the basis of those contract criteria to the extent of interpreting -- and then applying -- the terms of GM’s warranty program, relative also to the regulations of the particular State as they apply in each case. Of course, all you’re concerned about is getting your vehicles fixed, hopefully for the long term. However, the legal situation is that when a GM authorized dealer performs warranty repair work on your vehicle, they are actually performing on the terms of a contract.

 

In negotiation theory, if a verbal statement is made, then it can (and properly ought to be) put in writing, for by that means it more firmly becomes a component of the larger contractual relationship which governs the situation. Therefore, if you ask the service manager if there might be any long-term mechanical consequences that might later crop up as a result of the original flaw (the bad engine-drivetrain alignment), AND IF HE REFUSES TO DO SO, then what essentially has happened is that a verbal promise was made relative to the terms of the underlying contract, but then immediately withdrawn. This is a very bad state of affairs. If possible, it would be useful to have a friend (from work?) standing there to witness your conversation with the service manager. If they say either that something will or will not happen, but refuse to put that in writing, then they are breaking an initial, verbal, promise, or back-tracking from their position, and/or lying.

 

At that point you can either stay there and keep fighting, leave and seek legal assistance (or BBB Arbitration), or leave and be defeated. I recommend the first course of action. Unless you make the mistake of using profanity, losing your cool, or engaging in physical violence, there is almost nothing they can do. Although it is extremely unlikely they will call in the police to have you removed, they may threaten to do so. But don’t worry about that for even one second. Long before they took such a rash action, the general manager of the dealership or even the owner would be brought over, which is more or less the sort of outcome you want. If you’ve been in the face (in a respectful way, of course) of the service manager, you now have the opportunity to (respectfully) get into the face of the boss. Don’t worry about that: these guys make a lot of money, and here’s where they are forced to justify it.

 

Remember, you’re not asking or expecting the service manager or the owner to have a crystal ball such that he can predict the future. You’re asking him what sorts of symptoms you should stay alert for. I repeat: if he says there will be no symptoms, then get that in writing. IF, however, he starts listing a few of the things that MIGHT appear, then you want to say that those would be RE-OCURRENCES of the original problem, and that is exactly why you want a free, extended drivetrain warranty.

 

You wrote :

“I had to take it back today because it drifts to the right, and I was bouncing at 40-55 mph.”

 

Ok, so AFTER they fixed it the first time, you had to take it back again to have something else fixed that they didn’t catch initially. So, what ELSE didn’t they catch? What will they miss the third time you bring the truck in, and the fourth time, and the fifth time? These are the things you want to start putting in their face. After awhile they will start trying to figure out what is the path of least resistance for them. Remember, it is within the scope of their authority to recommend an extended warranty. The regional GM service rep may have to sign off on it, but the service manager at your dealer can recommend it. That is the goal toward which you are aiming. Without attacking the service manager, you want to get him into the position of thinking that giving you an extended warranty is the easiest course for him to get you out of there.

 

Further comments:

 

Usually, the larger the dealer (in terms of units sold), the greater the number of extended warranty’s that can more readily be handed out. In its warranty control program, GM has a system in place based on “statistical presentation.” This means that they expect X number of problems to appear per thousand vehicles sold. Their model assumes that any given problem of a warranty nature will be distributed proportionately. For the sake of discussion, let’s say that GM is prepared to issue three extended warranties per thousand vehicles sold (in fact, their formula is much more complicated and sophisticated than that). A small dealership that sells one thousand vehicles a year might be allotted three “freebie” extended warranty “passes” during that year (“three” is an arbitrary number used here only for purposes of illustration). Others may also be handed out, IF the problems are blatant and undeniable. But every additional extended warranty offered through that dealership is going to be resisted harder by the service manager and the regional rep, since it contravenes GM’s warranty protocols. In part, the job performance reviews (and thus things like annual awards, bonuses, promotions, etc.) of the GM regional reps is based on how closely they meet the protocol targets. A larger dealership that sells five thousand vehicles a year will be allotted 15 “passes.” Thus, they are more likely to have one available. There is no guarantee of that, of course. Their allotment might already have been used up for the period in question. That period does, of course, constantly shift “forward,” since new vehicles are constantly arriving on the lot, which then changes the warranty parameters for a determinant period of time.

 

GM’s warranty and repair system is such that they really, really don’t want too many people appealing the judgements made by the service managers. But as is so often the case, people who make a big noise are more likely to get some sort of pacifier stuck into their mouths -- in this case, an extended warranty. The GM system is such that appeals and complaints introduce instabilities and inefficiencies into the system. GM’s system has the regional reps working at maximum capacity. The top GM executives view this as “efficient personnel utilization.” GM distributes their regional service reps primarily according to units sold (with some geographical considerations also factored in). There aren’t very many of them nationwide (I believe there are currently only about 140 in the lower 48 States, and one each in Alaska and Hawaii). Because being a regional rep is considered a very highly skilled and responsible position in the Corporation, they are compensated very well, but also correspondingly worked very hard. So one thing the reps don’t want is to have the service managers at the dealerships kicking lots of warranty problems upstairs, onto their desks. GM has a system in place to monitor the performance, or “degree of compliance,” of the service managers. Although the service managers nominally are employees of the dealership, not the General Motors Corporation, GM does keep track of each service managers utilization patterns. All of this takes place through the computerized network through which all the dealerships are tied into the GM central system. If any one service manager at a given dealership starts “wobbling,” (that is, becoming either too lenient or too strict in his or her interpretation of GM’s service protocols), GM has a system in place to deal with those sorts of situations.

 

This closes my initial comments on your situation, Lisa. I will post a few, brief thoughts about leases in a day or two, since I won’t have time to do so until then.

 

gnutruk

[lisak421]

GNUTRUCK you just blew my doors off. I'm going to print your reply so I have a little handbook to refer to as I embark on this battle.

 

You have empowered me to fight for my rights on this issue.

 

I do have a concern as to what will happen to this truck down the road. I drove it last night, the drifting has been corrected, but the bounce is still there. I think I will go to a tire shop to have them checked out (dealership told me my front tires were choppy and that's what's causing the bounce, what caused them to become choppy?) I had a newer tire on the left front, and I rotate them 2-3 times per year.

 

You made a lot of good points and I really do appreciate all the time you spent posting the information, I am very grateful to you.

 

I will go to the dealer tomorrow after I hit the tire shop. I will make sure I take someone from work with me as a witness.

 

You're the greatest for taking the time to help me, I'll let you know what happens.

 

Thank you!

 

Lisa

[lisak421]

Hey everybody,

 

Here's an update.

 

Monday went to the dealer, had someone go with me. Advisor drove my truck, felt all the bouncing, he calls "vibration". He said it was my tires causing the bounce, they are all choppy and that he bets his paycheck on it. I asked so what happens when I put new tires on it that I can't afford and it still doing, he said he was confident in all their work and that it would have to be shocks or structs. I asked if it could "shift" again, and what caused it to begin with. He said potholes can do that, then said probably not.

 

I asked if he would put in writing what could I expect in future as far as any problems, he said he didn't know but highly advises an extended warranty. He wouldn't give me anything in writing, said my work orders is all he could give me. Told him I was going to take it to the tire store and have them all checked. He told me not to replace them yet because they still have plenty of wear. How the heck am I going to get rid of the bounce then if it's the tires??

 

Took it to the tire place. Told them I need to have them all checked and told them I had a bounce/vibration. They checked and said 1 had to be replaced, and it was 1 of 2 that was choppy. He said I didn't need tires yet. I then explained the story to him. He told me he would order my tire and to come back tomorrow.

 

Today I went to get my new tire. They had the wrong one, he asked if I wanted to wait for the guy to deliver it or come back tomorrow, I told him I would just wait cause I didn't want to come back again. Another hour passed, the guy shows up with another wrong tire!!!!!!!!! The manager comes over explains he still doesn't have the right one so he told me I've been through enough, he was putting 4 new tires on the truck, which I said I can't afford 4 new tires, he said no charge, yeah right. He said no charge I'll show them to you right now and get you out of here.

I really thought this guy was pulling my leg. He wasn't, I was in total shock. I have new goodyear tires.................what a great guy, I won't forget this one.

 

Truck now has 35,675 miles, I'm taking it to the dealership Thursday, my bounce/vibration is better.......but............it still there just not as bads and drifting to right which is getting worse. Even if you crawl at 10 mph you feel like your going over bumps when your not, and there is almost like a wobble like the axel is bent., just to hard to explain. It's just not the same truck.

 

Apology for the book here, Friday I am planning on calling GM about this whole thing, till then I have to park my baby till I figure out what's gonna happen next.

 

Thanks for all the help I have received, you're the greatest.

 

Lisa

[citydriver]

At least you got a new set of sneakers FREE OF CHARGE

But the bounce or vibration bothers me and its not even my truck...I wonder if they checked the CV Joints and shafts when they had it apart...if it was DRIVETRAIN alignment that caused the original blow-up, it may have placed undo stress on the axles and CV's...but all I can do is GUESS without experiencing the problem myself.....If at all possible you may want to try and contact the local GM Rep and have them meet you at the dealer when you take it in..I know it sounds like a LONGSHOT, but after what you've been through, what would it hurt to try....then you can bring up all of the points mentioned previously..

It may also be bennificial for you to bring in all of your paperwork(receipts,bills,work orders) at the same time to re-enforce your case...any how thats my $.02.....GOOD LUCK

[Tolliverme]

I think that they should fix everything. If they don't you should contact the Better Busines Bureau. When you bought the Truck in most if not all states they give you a Lemon Law Booklet. in that book it gives you a BBB number to call if you have a problem. i can tell you from experience that if you call them you get attention.

 

Good luck!

[gnutruk]

Lisa :

 

Don't get sidetracked here. Notwithstanding that one or two of your tires may have been less than perfect, the central issue has to do with possible long-term consequences of the defective drive-train.

 

Yes, it’s nice that you got new sneakers on the truck. But keep in mind that it is a common technique in skilled service trades such as auto repair and construction, to try to SHIFT BLAME onto a secondary area, where the responsible party can attempt to deny involvement. It is a very common and extremely well understood technique for dealers to shift blame for any and all front-end mechanical and/or suspension problems onto the tires. That is such a common trick that some of us have speculated there must be a school somewhere, or a handbook, that instructs service managers to come up with that old garbage.

 

Don’t let them deflect you from your strong position. Now that you have new, properly mounted and balanced tires on your truck, you have eliminated that condition from their arguments against you. Go back in again, this time for the kill : THEY DIDN’T FIX THE PROBLEM THE FIRST TIME !!!

 

Also, start going in on your schedule, not theirs. If they give you an appointment, show up a day early, and state as forcefully as you can that you are worried that a safety issue is developing, since the problem continues and/or is getting worse. DIRECTLY AND POINTEDLY INSIST THAT THEY WRITE THAT ON THE WORK ORDER (a copy of which they are obligated by law to give you).

 

Then do this : They will have you sign the work order prior to taking your truck for another inspection and/or repair. You are required to sign it, because you are thereby giving your authorization for them to perform inspection and/or service on your vehicle. You will sign down at the bottom of the sheet, just below a lot of fine print that specifies the terms of your authorization, along with the dealers concomitant involvement in the process. IN THE MAIN SECTION OF THE WORK ORDER, ABOVE, there will be some open, blank space. In that space, just AFTER you sign the document, write the following ;

 

“RETURNED FOR REPAIR OF PREVIOUS PROBLEM. I AM WORRIED THAT MY TRUCK IS UNSAFE TO DRIVE.”

 

Then sign that, too.

 

You have a legal right to append that comment (or any other relevant comment) to the body of the work order. I have seen related cases where attempts were made by service manager types to reject a work order because of such additions. Do not fall for that trick. You have a legal right to state your concerns on the work order. As soon as they have placed a work order in front of you for your signature, and AFTER you have signed at the bottom just below the fine print of the authorization, the entire piece of paper immediately constitutes a legally binding document of contract between you and the dealership (and GM, on whose behalf the dealership is performing on warranty). As such, it will a part of the case file of your warranty claim. Notwithstanding that some service managers aren’t quite up to rocket scientist levels if IQ, they are all carefully trained to meet GM’s requirements for document management. Correctly handling the paperwork is an extremely important part of their job. This is shown also by the fact that the documentation is the very first thing the lawyers want to get hold of, if and when a matter goes for adjudication.

 

You wrote : “Friday I am planning on calling GM about this whole thing, till then I have to park my baby till I figure out what's gonna happen next.”

 

DO NOT wait until Friday. Call immediately. The fact that you’re still having problems constitutes the lid of a pressure cooker. Time to turn up the heat. When you call GM Customer Service, inform them that the dealer didn’t resolve the problem, and that you are concerned about the safety of the vehicle. If it were my truck, Lisa, I’d be worried about whether it was entirely safe to drive. Start getting into the habit of saying the “S” word -- Safety. Start repeating it again and again. All automobile dealers throughout the country share one characteristic -- none of them like personal injury lawyers. None of them want to deal with those people. I do not know if the situation with your truck is, in fact, an unsafe condition. However, if the CV shafts and joints had been stressed, then other bearing components may have been stressed also. It seems clear that your suspension and/or steering systems are out-of-whack : who wants to going down the highway at 60 mph under such conditions?

 

Your truck had broken engine and transmission mounts. THAT IS AN EXTREME SITUATION. Almost nobody on this or any other truck-talk forum has had that happen to them. Drive-train mis-alignment is so rare in modern vehicles that only full-time mechanics see such cases, and only rarely even then. The ONLY time drive-train mis-alignment occurs in non-warranty situations is when there has been such severe abuse that lots of other obvious, visual, damage can be seen. If there is no other evidence of under-carriage damage, then in every sense of logic, fact, and mechanical reality the problems you are experiencing are as a result of the drive-train mis-alignment. That mis-alignment is entirely GM’s responsibility. It is a full, obvious, and complete warranty situation, and the dealer’s service department has clearly NOT fixed it yet.

 

You wrote : “my bounce/vibration is better.......but............it still there just not as bad and drifting to right which is getting worse. Even if you crawl at 10 mph you feel like your going over bumps when your not, and there is almost like a wobble like the axel is bent., just to hard to explain.”

 

You just described it fairly well. Rhythmic, shuddering, pulsating symptoms are bad conditions. They may have replaced and/or repaired the damaged/broken engine and transmission mounts, but something else continues to be very wrong. Put that fact in the service managers face, stand your ground, and repeat it over and over. Some of these service managers are just dumb jocks, and they won’t catch on to issues until they have been hit over the head again and again with the concept of the problem. Something other than the drive-train alignment has gone bad. Neither GM nor the service manager has a leg to stand on, but they are stone-walling you.

 

Citydriver wrote : “But the bounce or vibration bothers me and its not even my truck...I wonder if they checked the CV Joints and shafts when they had it apart...if it was DRIVETRAIN alignment that caused the original blow-up, it may have placed undo stress on the axles and CV's...but all I can do is GUESS”

 

His point is basic : mis-alignment is LIKELY to cause many serious stresses, which will show up in places not directly associated with the initial problem. GM and the service manager might deny it, but we know that those sorts of consequences are to be expected.

 

Stay focused on the dealer and the service manager. You’re fighting for a free, extended warranty. GM has handed out free, extended warranties for situations much less serious than this. As you’ve already indicated, the four new tires didn’t solve the problem.

 

gnutruk

[Plainsman]

I just got a 7 year 70,000 GMPP for free on my 2003.

 

Call the BBB, that will start the ball rolling. Youll have a call from GM inside 24 hours.

 

I told the BBB I wanted to start a buy back process (you cant do that on a 2002). If I were you I would go down the safty/reliability route. I explained my issue and they said "yes that qualifies". Within a day I had a GM rep calling me. The customer service was fantastic, GM did right my me. The GM rep put his thumb on the dealer to do the right things too, that helped a ton. I was very impressed.