Questions About Ethanol Blended Gas

[Griffin86]

I was just wondering how blended gas is made. Do they take like 80 octane gas and blended with 10% ethanol? Ethanol octane rating is 120 I think. I was just thinking about prices, 91 octane costs more because there are more processes. So if the gas is cheaper to produce, the gas should be cheaper. I know there are other things that are factored in to the pricing. I really have a scatterbrain right now...

[fbachman]

I was just wondering how blended gas is made. Do they take like 80 octane gas and blended with 10% ethanol? Ethanol octane rating is 120 I think. I was just thinking about prices, 91 octane costs more because there are more processes. So if the gas is cheaper to produce, the gas should be cheaper. I know there are other things that are factored in to the pricing. I really have a scatterbrain right now...

 

 

All methanol fuel at the moment is produced with a government price subcidy. Ethanol, and, thus, of course, E85, actually costs more to produce than refined gasolines.

 

If there were no government subsidies on methanol, it would NEVER, from a cost standpoint, be economical to run in a vehicle when compared with gasoline, unless gasoline went up in price a MULTIPLE of what it costs now.

 

In fact, even WITH the Govt subsidy, and the lower E85 price, it STILL isn't economical to run, as your mileage decreases with ethanol (for various thermodynamic reasons), and, even at the subsidized price, it will take you YEARS to break even on cost of fueling. Now, emotionally, it FEELS better because you're filling up for less each visit. But, looking on an overall "cost of ownership" basis, it will NEVER be more cost effective to run E85.

 

Mthanol is the most bone-headed thing I have seen come out of DC in a long time (and that's saying something). It IS renewable---true. But, at the consumption rates we see for automotive fuesl in this country, It will NEVER pan out, unless there is a HUGE leap in technology reference Methanol production. Maybe that's what DC is banking on. At current technology levels, we could barely HOPE to ever grow enough corn to completely replace our fleets with E85, rather than gasoline.

 

On top of that, we wouldn't have any feed corn to feed livestock, nor would there be an acre of land that would NOT be producing corn for this to happen. Thus, we would not be growing the other produce and crops we need in lieu of feed corn.

 

[Nick The Great]

If you're gonna rag on something, you should at least use the correct name . . .

 

Methanol is much different than ethanol. Besides the obvious number of carbon chains, Methanol will cause you to go blind and can kill you. Ethanol will just help you dance.

[MS3DALE]

In fact, even WITH the Govt subsidy, and the lower E85 price, it STILL isn't economical to run, as your mileage decreases with ethanol (for various thermodynamic reasons), and, even at the subsidized price, it will take you YEARS to break even on cost of fueling.

 

Well Frank,sometimes it is more economical to run,Around here this past Christmas/New Years "E85" was $.60 cents cheaper than regular gas.

Now its running $.35 cents cheaper and is still a little more economical to run than regular gas.

As long as its at least $.30 cents cheaper your OK,Anything under that and your losing.

[ZZ327]

Ive only ever seen 89 octane with 10% ethanol other than E85. Which is still economical to run BTW. Especially if you have a higher compression engine. Do You think your regular gas isnt subsidized either? I bet we re actually paying close to 6-8 bucks a gallon without government help.

[Nick The Great]

In fact, even WITH the Govt subsidy, and the lower E85 price, it STILL isn't economical to run, as your mileage decreases with ethanol (for various thermodynamic reasons), and, even at the subsidized price, it will take you YEARS to break even on cost of fueling.

 

Well Frank,sometimes it is more economical to run,Around here this past Christmas/New Years "E85" was $.60 cents cheaper than regular gas.

Now its running $.35 cents cheaper and is still a little more economical to run than regular gas.

As long as its at least $.30 cents cheaper your OK,Anything under that and your losing.

 

 

Gas today in Des Moines is 3.759

E-85 just down the street is 2.999.

 

It is economical for me at that point.

[18702GMT900]

Gas today in Des Moines is 3.759

E-85 just down the street is 2.999.

 

It is economical for me at that point.

 

WOW I wish E-85 is that cheap where I live

 

In Corn country Central IL

Gas is $3.95

E-85 is $3.24 I wish I'm paying what you paid for E-85

[ZZ327]

In fact, even WITH the Govt subsidy, and the lower E85 price, it STILL isn't economical to run, as your mileage decreases with ethanol (for various thermodynamic reasons), and, even at the subsidized price, it will take you YEARS to break even on cost of fueling.

 

Well Frank,sometimes it is more economical to run,Around here this past Christmas/New Years "E85" was $.60 cents cheaper than regular gas.

Now its running $.35 cents cheaper and is still a little more economical to run than regular gas.

As long as its at least $.30 cents cheaper your OK,Anything under that and your losing.

 

 

Gas today in Des Moines is 3.759

E-85 just down the street is 2.999.

 

It is economical for me at that point.

 

 

 

similar price range here in omaha, gas is 3.85, and I just saw a E85 pump @$2.98. It probably depends on where youre getting E85. I just looked up the price list and its only a 30 cent difference in Bellvue NE, and it says theyre both phillips 66 stations. The one I saw today was a BP

[Griffin86]

Those answers wern't quite what I was looking for. More like are they using low octane gas like 80 and blending it with ethanol to make like 87? ha In Saskatchewan and I am pretty sure all of Canada it is 10% ethanol and not subsidized. Of my fill up today of $114, over $20 was taxes.

[fbachman]

Ethanol/methanol you are correct. typing faster than i was thinking..... edit/replace meth with eth ....

 

Doesn't change my opinion though --- and it's not only an opinion, run the numbers --- these are facts.

 

Well Frank,sometimes it is more economical to run,Around here this past Christmas/New Years "E85" was $.60 cents cheaper than regular gas.

Now its running $.35 cents cheaper and is still a little more economical to run than regular gas.

As long as its at least $.30 cents cheaper your OK,Anything under that and your losing.

 

Assuming $4 for gas, $3.70 for E85, and assuming your mileage on E85 is 13mpg , and the mileage of your truck is 15mpg with gas, a generous assumption on the E85 mpg, BTW, the numbers still don't add up. Mind you, in all of these scenarios, I am NOT taking into account a cost penalty for getting the E85 capable engine. They usually cost somewhat more on acquisition.

 

At 10,000 miles/year, you pay $180 more per year with E85 --- at 25000 miles/year, you pay almost $450 more per year for E85.

 

At $3.40 for E85, you are correct, assuming $4 gas. Although at 25000 mi/year, your savings would be a whopping $128/year, less savings for anything less than 25000 mi/year.

 

Gas today in Des Moines is 3.759

E-85 just down the street is 2.999.

 

It is economical for me at that point.

 

True....

 

At 10,000 mi/year: savings = $199 / year

At 25,000 mi/year: savings = $498 / year

 

WOW I wish E-85 is that cheap where I live

 

In Corn country Central IL

Gas is $3.95

E-85 is $3.24 I wish I'm paying what you paid for E-85

 

At 10,000 mi/year: savings = $141 / year

At 25,000 mi/year: savings = $352 / year

 

Do You think your regular gas isnt subsidized either?

 

Nope, quite the contrary... we're taxed thru the nose on every gal of gas --- both state and feds.

 

 

I bet we re actually paying close to 6-8 bucks a gallon without government help.

Exactly what HELP do you think the government is giving us here???????

 

Again, all E85 prices above are GOVT subsidized prices. Without the subcidy, it would cost MORE.

 

The biggest savings quoted above was $500/year. Granted, $500 you wouldn't have had otherwise. But for $41/month savings --- worth it?....everyone has to decide on their own. Factor in the additional flex-fuel engine acquisition cost, and the fact that almost everyone probably has to drive a little more to FIND E85 (most of us anyway), that $41/mopnth get absorbed VERY quickly. I don't even think there's an E85 station in my city right now. Never seen one.

 

[ZZ327]

Thats what Im saying, without the mixes of ethanol they have now we would be paying more than it already is!

 

 

Also I dunno about other brands but all E85 capable engines from GM cost you $0. nothing more than it is to choose the next up from your base engine choice.

[rvsahs]

Ethanol/methanol you are correct. typing faster than i was thinking..... edit/replace meth with eth ....

 

Doesn't change my opinion though --- and it's not only an opinion, run the numbers --- these are facts.

 

Well Frank,sometimes it is more economical to run,Around here this past Christmas/New Years "E85" was $.60 cents cheaper than regular gas.

Now its running $.35 cents cheaper and is still a little more economical to run than regular gas.

As long as its at least $.30 cents cheaper your OK,Anything under that and your losing.

 

Assuming $4 for gas, $3.70 for E85, and assuming your mileage on E85 is 13mpg , and the mileage of your truck is 15mpg with gas, a generous assumption on the E85 mpg, BTW, the numbers still don't add up. Mind you, in all of these scenarios, I am NOT taking into account a cost penalty for getting the E85 capable engine. They usually cost somewhat more on acquisition.

 

At 10,000 miles/year, you pay $180 more per year with E85 --- at 25000 miles/year, you pay almost $450 more per year for E85.

 

At $3.40 for E85, you are correct, assuming $4 gas. Although at 25000 mi/year, your savings would be a whopping $128/year, less savings for anything less than 25000 mi/year.

 

Gas today in Des Moines is 3.759

E-85 just down the street is 2.999.

 

It is economical for me at that point.

 

True....

 

At 10,000 mi/year: savings = $199 / year

At 25,000 mi/year: savings = $498 / year

 

WOW I wish E-85 is that cheap where I live

 

In Corn country Central IL

Gas is $3.95

E-85 is $3.24 I wish I'm paying what you paid for E-85

 

At 10,000 mi/year: savings = $141 / year

At 25,000 mi/year: savings = $352 / year

 

Do You think your regular gas isnt subsidized either?

 

Nope, quite the contrary... we're taxed thru the nose on every gal of gas --- both state and feds.

 

 

I bet we re actually paying close to 6-8 bucks a gallon without government help.

Exactly what HELP do you think the government is giving us here???????

 

Again, all E85 prices above are GOVT subsidized prices. Without the subcidy, it would cost MORE.

 

The biggest savings quoted above was $500/year. Granted, $500 you wouldn't have had otherwise. But for $41/month savings --- worth it?....everyone has to decide on their own. Factor in the additional flex-fuel engine acquisition cost, and the fact that almost everyone probably has to drive a little more to FIND E85 (most of us anyway), that $41/mopnth get absorbed VERY quickly. I don't even think there's an E85 station in my city right now. Never seen one.

 

 

Grumpy, thanks for crunching the numbers. Your analysis is correct based on the mileage assumptions. And that's the kicker really. The greater the mileage penalty in % terms w/ethanol, the greater the ethanol discount required just to break-even with gas.

We don't have E85 stations in OK to my knowledge, and very few if any 10% ethanol pumps.

And yes, the scariest words you can ever hear are "I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you". Sends shivers down my spine.

[Dyabolical]

What drives me nuts about the ethanol is the notion that farmers wouldn't be able to grow enough corn and that we would run out of food blah blah blah.

 

That is so retarded. As it is now, the U.S. govt spends billions a year paying farmers NOT to grow corn, so that the market isn't flooded and the price drops too much.

 

Also, ethanol is still in its infant stages. Corn is an abundant source and therefore was the first target. Labs all around the world are working on other non food crops that can produce 40-80% more ethanol then corn at a much cheaper cost, it is a matter of working the kinks out of the new technology.

 

My great grandpa laughs everytime he sees a news article about ethanol. To him, the public is reacting the say way as they did when the idea of cars came about. They were too "impractical." Give it time.

[Nick The Great]

Gas today in Des Moines is 3.759

E-85 just down the street is 2.999.

 

It is economical for me at that point.

 

True....

 

At 10,000 mi/year: savings = $199 / year

At 25,000 mi/year: savings = $498 / year

 

The biggest savings quoted above was $500/year. Granted, $500 you wouldn't have had otherwise. But for $41/month savings --- worth it?....everyone has to decide on their own. Factor in the additional flex-fuel engine acquisition cost, and the fact that almost everyone probably has to drive a little more to FIND E85 (most of us anyway), that $41/mopnth get absorbed VERY quickly. I don't even think there's an E85 station in my city right now. Never seen one.

 

 

I work in the Ag Industry, so I'm biased I don't give a flying rat about 'carbon' footprints and such nonsense.

 

But you're right, E-85 isn't our silver bullet. At best, it's a step forward in the right direction for our energy needs. I strongly believe cellulistic ethanol will be worlds cheaper. I don't know when that will come, but it's in the foreseeable future.

 

I know that not all our oil comes from the Middle East, and our society can't function without it. But I do know that ethanol is a 99.8% domestic product, produced, processed, and consumed by Americans. No offense to our Canadian friends on here, but that is VERY important to me.

 

This isn't the time or place to get into the economics of it. Ethanol is positive energy balance. The effect on food prices is quite minimal. The high price of oil has a larger effect than anything else.

 

The worst thing that ever happened to Ethanol was for people to start claiming it as a 'green' product. Once the liberals stood behind it, the Pubs had no choice but to oppose it. 15 yrs ago in Iowa, ethanol was a farmer's issue, who are overwhelmingly conservative. Now I feel like a damn, dirty hippie when I fill my truck up with E-85

[d3athsong]

Ive only ever seen 89 octane with 10% ethanol other than E85. Which is still economical to run BTW. Especially if you have a higher compression engine. Do You think your regular gas isnt subsidized either? I bet we re actually paying close to 6-8 bucks a gallon without government help.

 

Here in NA, our regular fuel isnt subsidized by the government, it's taxed.

 

As for ethanol, if it drives up the cost of grain a little, im all for it. And i would imagine there will be a lot more stations with E85 once the remaining 30% of funded ethanol plants get built and operational.