E85 Flex Fuel - 2019 AT4

Cowpie · November 7, 2019

16 minutes ago, TXGREEK said:

That was for auto makers too. We’ve got multiple shell stations in the family and believe me, the government working through the oil companies are bringing it up, no thanks. Bio fuels are great but not so much when you see the amount of energy it takes to make them. Ok, I’m outta here...

Sent from Above

Actually, it takes more energy per BTU output to make petroleum fuels than it does biofuels.....

https://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/program/ethanol_brochure_color.pdf

jumpinjoe · November 7, 2019

Cowpie, I really don't want to be argumentative about this, but I do have a few questions and or comments. And know that I'm enjoying the conversation. Who knows, you might make a convert out of me at my old age. Not likely, but maybe.

First, I don't think anyone really has the 'right' answer simply because there's too much at stake on both sides for either side to bend or weaken in the discussion. For example, if you simply ask to see proof that a gallon of ethanol returns the same or more energy than it takes to produce that gallon, I don't remember ever actually seeing that proof primarily because nobody can agree on just what are all the actual energy requirements to make that gallon.

We know some of them are involved from the very start in that it costs energy to run all the farm equipment used to prepare the ground, to plant the corn, to fertilize, to treat with insecticides, the energy required to run the pumps for irrigation, then all the equipment energy requirements to harvest the corn, and to transport it to market. And the actual energy needed to process it, squeeze it, distill/cook it, pump it, load it for transport, transport it, store it, and finally pump it at the retail level.

Now granted some/most of that actual processing is electrical, but that takes more fossil fuel energy to produce the electricity to begin with. And each example of energy needed here also has a cost associated with it with one of the greatest costs being simple storage and transport of it. Being alcohol and being of such a corrosive nature, ethanol cannot be stored and/or transported nearly as economically as gasoline. Just the tanks and pipes used to store alcohol have to be built to far more resistant standards, all of which requires energy (and associated costs) to manufacture.

It's really hard to compare simply the energy required to produce a gallon of ethanol without also comparing the costs associated with that energy. So, with that in mind let's take a quick look at the costs. Back when this ethanol craze first appeared on the general public market, we were importing most of our fossil fuel requirements. I don't know right off what the percentages was, but since that time we know for certain our import requirements have dropped considerably if not totally. So we can assume the actual cost to produce a galln of ethanol has dropped pretty significantly in the past decade. With discoveries such as the Balkin field and others, our dependence on imported oil is almost nil, and our costs of fossil fuels has dropped considerably everywhere except on the open retain market. But, the requirements in energy requirements for the manufacture of ethanol has not changed, even though costs might have.

So, going full circle here and getting back to the actual energy required to produce a gallon of ethanol being <> the energy returned by that gallon is speculative at best. Whereas the associated energy based on costs (which is still the most logical and likely the most accurate way to calculate the comparison) still seems to be > than the energy returned by that gallon of ethanol and especially when considering that corn is way down the list of the best vegetable product to use for conversion to ethanol anyway. It's well known that sugar cane and/or sugar beets are a far better choice for conversion, but far more costly and likely more detrimental to the food supplies. And that brings to mind another actual cost of using corn and that is that the reduction of corn will sometimes, with the decrease in availability of quantity cause an increase in cost of various other products we don't ordinarily connect with corn. (The old 'law of supply and demand' we all know). A quick example of that would be so many products we love and use everyday costs more with limited availability of corn. Like how many everyday products contain 'corn syrup'? Just about everything we eat, and most cosmetics, etc.

Now, I didn't mean to get this long winded about this again, but even aside the fact I have never had a good experience with ethanol, and some of my bad experiences with it have been relatively costly, I just can't find any good use for it in my daily activities. The E10, with a heavy add of "Lead Substitute" does help my air boat engine to run a tad cooler down here in the hot weather, but with the additional care to watch out for the water absorption that is going to happen, it's probably a wash as to any benefit. So, I'll let it go here. Like I said I really don't want to get into a real debate since I don't think either of us could ever agree on the rules of such a debate, much less the facts. Like I said when I started this post, I've never seen any 2 articles on the subject use the same criteria to compare, and I don't think it could ever be so.

Lastly I'll offer this as a concession to our conversation. Bio fuels in the form of a diesel substitute seem a far more feasible product than alcohol. I don't know the cost comparisons or energy comparisons of the bio diesel to refined diesel any better than I do for ethanol, but I do know I've never had the bad experiences with it that I've had with the alcohol. I don't foresee a time when all OTR trucks, or buses, or trains will ever convert to alcohol, but the conversion to bio diesel is not too much of a stretch. Who knows????

Regards,

jumpinjoe

jumpinjoe · November 7, 2019

Oh yeh, and the last thing I remember reading on the subject suggested that the mpg of ethanol was about 11% less than gasoline. That 11% multiplied by the number of vehicles on the road in the country and using alcohol by the total miles driven at an 11% loss in mpg would also have to be brought into any comparison.

So that 11% would have to be added (in theory) to the cost of a gallon of ethanol, or to the associated costs and/or energy requirements to make it. I don't know how that would breakout since it would depend largely on locale and the common price of the alcohol in that locale.

I dunno, just something else to think about, huh?

Regards,

jumpinjoe

TXGREEK · November 7, 2019

Oh yeh, and the last thing I remember reading on the subject suggested that the mpg of ethanol was about 11% less than gasoline. That 11% multiplied by the number of vehicles on the road in the country and using alcohol by the total miles driven at an 11% loss in mpg would also have to be brought into any comparison.

So that 11% would have to be added (in theory) to the cost of a gallon of ethanol, or to the associated costs and/or energy requirements to make it. I don't know how that would breakout since it would depend largely on locale and the common price of the alcohol in that locale.

I dunno, just something else to think about, huh?

Regards,
jumpinjoe

It’s 30% less than gasoline

Sent from Above

Cowpie · November 7, 2019

True, the mpg is less, but in most cases the cost of the fuel is less, and can even end up being less cost per mile in the final analysis.

for instance, I am currently getting E85 at roughly $1.90 a gallon. Premium is going for $2.94. My 2500 averages about 11 MPG for all miles on E85. 14 MPG on road trips. Just to break even, on Premium I would have to average 17 MPG and on road trips get at least 21 MPG. Will never happen.

I compared E85 to Premium because they are equivalent fuels. E85 is 100 octane and Premium is 93. The same equivalencies can be made comparing E10, or better yet E15, to non ethanol regular. Regular E10 is $2.39 in my area, E15 is $2.34, and non ethanol regular is $2.75.

so for me, it is value. I may get less MPG with ethanol fuels, but I also pay substantially less so that on a cost per mile basis, I save quite a bit by using the ethanol fuels. On the actual commodity market, ethanol is $1.40 and 85 octane regular is $1.63. So the prices above in my comparison fall in line with market prices and fuel tax.

The only place I fall in line with the no ethanol thing is my small equipment gas needs like my lawn mower, portable generators, John Deere Gator, etc. And I usually take a 30 gallon drum to town on occasion and fill it with ethanol free gas.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Cowpie

jumpinjoe · November 8, 2019

8 hours ago, Cowpie said:

".............................................................................................. " edited by jumpinjoe for space

The only place I fall in line with the no ethanol thing is my small equipment gas needs like my lawn mower, portable generators, John Deere Gator, etc. And I usually take a 30 gallon drum to town on occasion and fill it with ethanol free gas.

Alrighty then, changing the subject .............. I think you said back in an earlier post you were from a farm family but were no longer farming since you were now OTR trucking. I can see that happening as a natural progression. But now I'm going to make a guess about you and you've not mentioned it ............................ but I'm guessing you're also a deer hunter and just about to begin getting ready to go hunting. And I don't even know when hunting season starts in Iowa.

Reason I say that is because you mentioned having a "John Deere" Gator. Now the only two kinds of people who own JD Gators are farmers and hunters, so? How'd I do?

And then you mentioned something about a 30 gal drum of ethanol free gas. I couldn't get away with keeping a 30 gal drum of ethanol-gas on hand down here since by the time I used it up it'd have about a 1/2 gal of H2o. Unless I put it in my air boat. That thing uses about 25-30 gals over a good weekend. Might get away with ethanol free in 30 gals, but I'd have to be real careful even with that.

I run the air boat a lot down on the St John's river headwaters. There's a lot of wide open wet grass fields much like the Everglades, then there's also a lot of hard core swamp much like the Okefenokee with lots of deep, dark waters and cypress trees. Lot's of alligators, lot's of snakes, lots of bob-cats, lots of coyotes, and lots of spiders. GREAT BIG spiders!!! LOL! Oh yeh, and mosquitoes so big they can stand 'flat footed' and fist fight with turkeys. But I enjoy getting out there when I can to hunt, camp, fish and even swim in certain areas.

Regards,

jumpinjoe

Cowpie · November 8, 2019

7 hours ago, jumpinjoe said:

Alrighty then, changing the subject .............. I think you said back in an earlier post you were from a farm family but were no longer farming since you were now OTR trucking. I can see that happening as a natural progression. But now I'm going to make a guess about you and you've not mentioned it ............................ but I'm guessing you're also a deer hunter and just about to begin getting ready to go hunting. And I don't even know when hunting season starts in Iowa.

Reason I say that is because you mentioned having a "John Deere" Gator. Now the only two kinds of people who own JD Gators are farmers and hunters, so? How'd I do?

And then you mentioned something about a 30 gal drum of ethanol free gas. I couldn't get away with keeping a 30 gal drum of ethanol-gas on hand down here since by the time I used it up it'd have about a 1/2 gal of H2o. Unless I put it in my air boat. That thing uses about 25-30 gals over a good weekend. Might get away with ethanol free in 30 gals, but I'd have to be real careful even with that.

I run the air boat a lot down on the St John's river headwaters. There's a lot of wide open wet grass fields much like the Everglades, then there's also a lot of hard core swamp much like the Okefenokee with lots of deep, dark waters and cypress trees. Lot's of alligators, lot's of snakes, lots of bob-cats, lots of coyotes, and lots of spiders. GREAT BIG spiders!!! LOL! Oh yeh, and mosquitoes so big they can stand 'flat footed' and fist fight with turkeys. But I enjoy getting out there when I can to hunt, camp, fish and even swim in certain areas.

Regards,

jumpinjoe

I live rural but my time is such that I haven't really been able to make time for hunting in several years. And frankly, with state hunting regulations that have piled on over the years and me getting older, I don't find it nearly as satisfying as I did when I was younger. With land owner liability issues, it got harder to find good locations to hunt. I have a lifetime free hunting license from the state because of injuries I sustained the military, but even then I still don't really hunt anymore, not even squirrels, rabbits, pheasants, etc. I use the Gator just for basic around the property stuff. It is the 4x2 work model. I don't have any desire for the 45 mph running thru the mud with my hair on fire versions. I don't farm and haven't been directly involved with farming since I went in the Army almost 50 years ago. I just live out in the country among others who do farm. The county allows us to use our ATV's and UTV's on the rural gravel roads in my area. It is 2 miles to the nearest hard road from my house. Lots of folks just run around on their ATV's and UTV's while not having anything to do with hunting or farming.

I couldn't even tell you when deer hunting seasons are in Iowa either unless I looked it up. The only deer I get anymore are the ones foolish enough to step out at night in front of my semi truck with a Ali Arc guard on it. Just slams them and sends them to the next county.

How is it, again, that only farmers and hunters own JD gators? I got mine as a very good value. It was a unit that got used around one of the local JD plants and then a local dealer sucked it up and sold it for a few thousand less than a new one. It was only a year old, 168 hours on it, and came with new warranty. I am pretty sure the JD plant was not using it for farming or hunting either. Just like some truck stops I frequent use JD gators as on site work vehicles. Lot's of gators get used on construction sites also.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Cowpie

jumpinjoe · November 10, 2019

OK, you got me. I know they're used on/in areas other than farming and hunting. I just thought I had you figured out to one of those two things. Oh well, turns out you're considerably older than I had you pegged for too. I don't know exactly how old or young I had you figured for, but surely not old enough to have gone in the Army 50 yrs ago. I think I remember seeing somewhere you wrote that.

Assuming you were 18-20 when you enlisted, that would make you probably 4-6 yrs younger than me. I joined at 17 in early 1965. Got out in '69 and married the same year. Have just celebrated our 50th anniversary. In case you're wondering how I made it to 50th .... I learned early on there has to be two sides to every argument ............... her's and her mother's! LOL! Naw seriously, it's not been a real bad road, a few ups and downs. But we made it.

Anyhow, back to the Gator and hunting. It makes perfect sense why you would have one and how you would use it, being out in the country and all. Until a few years ago we still lived in the country and could do a lot of things that simply are not acceptable where we are now. He11, I could set up a 100 yd range in my back yard and shoot till dark if I wanted. Most of my neighbors would come over and join in sometimes. Now, if I want to shoot I have to load everything all up in my truck and drive about 8-10 miles to the nearest range. It's all OK I guess, just not nearly as convenient.

I'm gonna have to cut it short tonight. I'm pretty tired .... he11 I was up at the crack of noon today. I'm worn out. It's been fun but I gotta tell you I haven't changed my mind even one little bit about ethanol. I'll still give it's pretty good with a Jack Daniel's label, but just don't want it in my truck. Pretty sure TXGREEK hasn't been swayed either. He seems about as convinced as I am. Oh well, we can pick it up again on the other side.

And one last thing about making it to that magic 50th year. I remembered way back when young and first married, everybody always said the same ol' thing .... "Love is Grand!" Then I figured divorce would be probably 100 grand, so I just did the math! LOL!

Regards, and look forward to another good discussion,

jumpinjoe

Cowpie · November 11, 2019

Well, I did say...."almost 50 years ago". So that gives a little leeway. How about 48.4 years ago. That would be more precise. I figured that rounding it up to 50 years for the sake of brevity was not taking any real license with the facts.

And yep, I have a 100 yd basic shooting range set up behind my pole barn, but it doesn't get used much anymore. I need to redo the backstop berm.

jumpinjoe · November 11, 2019

Cowpie wrote ".............................

for instance, I am currently getting E85 at roughly $1.90 a gallon. Premium is going for $2.94. My 2500 averages about 11 MPG for all miles on E85. 14 MPG on road trips. Just to break even, on Premium I would have to average 17 MPG and on road trips get at least 21 MPG. Will never happen.

I compared E85 to Premium because they are equivalent fuels. E85 is 100 octane and Premium is 93. The same equivalencies can be made comparing E10, or better yet E15, to non ethanol regular. Regular E10 is $2.39 in my area, E15 is $2.34, and non ethanol regular is $2.75."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey Cowpie, before we let this topic completely die, I've got to ask one more question. In the short quote above you've mentioned using E85 @ 100 octane and Premium @ 93. OK, I can buy those numbers but what in the world are you driving that requires 100 octane? Maybe the Cadillac, but aren't the other two vehicles relatively low compression engines?

I can see you using the stuff for that much difference in price ($1.04 gal). Considerably more difference than the E15 and non-ethanol regular. I don't check it around here enough to know what the difference in price is, but I know (at least I think I know) for sure I don't drive anything I need 100 octane fuel in. At least I don't think so. I drive a 2014 5.3 Ecotec Silverado (typically 87 or 89 octane) and the wife drives a 2015 Equinox (same as my truck). And coincidentally my sister drives a 2006 CTX or CTS I think. I've never asked her but don't think she needs any high octane fuel either.

I'm going to get out my owner's manuals tomorrow and verify for sure I don't need any high octane, and I'll call her too just out of curiosity. In the meantime, thanks much.

Regards,

jumpinjoe

swathdiver · November 11, 2019

They don't "need" high octane fuel, they just run better with it. The engine computers have tables that will increase power when higher alcohol contents are detected. My truck loves running E85 too.

These Gen V direct injection motors are the only engines I've ever seen that see little, if any benefit from running a higher octane fuel than is required based on their compression ratio. I know of a couple of guys that tested this out after all my banter about how ALL vehicles benefit from running higher octane fuels. They proved me wrong with that engine type.

jumpinjoe · November 11, 2019

Just noticed swathdiver, you're from parts hereabouts, the treasure coast. I'm not too far north of you. Somewhere between Cocoa and Cape Canaveral. I'm also a diver, but not familiar with the term "swathdiver". Damn, I really am getting old! Care to elaborate?

And as for the compression ratio of any of my vehicles, I took a quick look and I think it said my wife's Equinox is about 11:1 or >. Way higher than I would have thought and never thought to look. And I still have a hard time remembering some of these things are basically a rolling computer that works real miracles with engine changes automatically that we used to have to work for hours to make similar changes.

But it seems since I can no longer work on my own stuff due to health issues, I just don't keep up on the technology like I should. I just replaced the battery in my 2014 Silverado last week is about the most detailed work I've done on one in years. Back in the day I have built complete engines for my daily drivers as well as my roundy-round cars. Even did much of my own machine work before CNC was ever heard of. It was all lathe and vertical mill work back then. LOL!

Regards,

jumpinjoe

TXGREEK · November 11, 2019

OK, you got me. I know they're used on/in areas other than farming and hunting. I just thought I had you figured out to one of those two things. Oh well, turns out you're considerably older than I had you pegged for too. I don't know exactly how old or young I had you figured for, but surely not old enough to have gone in the Army 50 yrs ago. I think I remember seeing somewhere you wrote that.

Assuming you were 18-20 when you enlisted, that would make you probably 4-6 yrs younger than me. I joined at 17 in early 1965. Got out in '69 and married the same year. Have just celebrated our 50th anniversary. In case you're wondering how I made it to 50th .... I learned early on there has to be two sides to every argument ............... her's and her mother's! LOL! Naw seriously, it's not been a real bad road, a few ups and downs. But we made it.

Anyhow, back to the Gator and hunting. It makes perfect sense why you would have one and how you would use it, being out in the country and all. Until a few years ago we still lived in the country and could do a lot of things that simply are not acceptable where we are now. He11, I could set up a 100 yd range in my back yard and shoot till dark if I wanted. Most of my neighbors would come over and join in sometimes. Now, if I want to shoot I have to load everything all up in my truck and drive about 8-10 miles to the nearest range. It's all OK I guess, just not nearly as convenient.

I'm gonna have to cut it short tonight. I'm pretty tired .... he11 I was up at the crack of noon today. I'm worn out. It's been fun but I gotta tell you I haven't changed my mind even one little bit about ethanol. I'll still give it's pretty good with a Jack Daniel's label, but just don't want it in my truck. Pretty sure TXGREEK hasn't been swayed either. He seems about as convinced as I am. Oh well, we can pick it up again on the other side.

And one last thing about making it to that magic 50th year. I remembered way back when young and first married, everybody always said the same ol' thing .... "Love is Grand!" Then I figured divorce would be probably 100 grand, so I just did the math! LOL!

Regards, and look forward to another good discussion,
jumpinjoe

I don’t mind putting in a few gallons for cleaning purposes but NEVER will I run straight E85, doesn’t benefit from it. I’ve noticed a decrease in mpg just by adding 7 gallons to a full tank. Super on road trips, especially being I almost never find E85 and when I have, I got nervous not knowing the condition of it. You gotta get it while it’s fresh out of the oven lol. E85 in my area isn’t sought after, primarily for those that mix a bit like I do for cleaning purposes but to this day, I’ve never seen anyone fill up with E85. To each their own, I’ve got a Tuned 6.2 that’s always eager to go, with E85 or with 93, I do get better mpgs with straight 93

Sent from Above

swathdiver · November 11, 2019

7 hours ago, jumpinjoe said:

Just noticed swathdiver, you're from parts hereabouts, the treasure coast. I'm not too far north of you. Somewhere between Cocoa and Cape Canaveral. I'm also a diver, but not familiar with the term "swathdiver". Damn, I really am getting old! Care to elaborate?

And as for the compression ratio of any of my vehicles, I took a quick look and I think it said my wife's Equinox is about 11:1 or >. Way higher than I would have thought and never thought to look. And I still have a hard time remembering some of these things are basically a rolling computer that works real miracles with engine changes automatically that we used to have to work for hours to make similar changes.

But it seems since I can no longer work on my own stuff due to health issues, I just don't keep up on the technology like I should. I just replaced the battery in my 2014 Silverado last week is about the most detailed work I've done on one in years. Back in the day I have built complete engines for my daily drivers as well as my roundy-round cars. Even did much of my own machine work before CNC was ever heard of. It was all lathe and vertical mill work back then. LOL!

Regards,

jumpinjoe

Port Saint Lucie here Joe. Name is play on words and has two meanings. First, I used to cover large swaths of the sea bottom when I used to dive, several miles often at a time with my Force Fins. Second, SWATH is a type of ship, ideally suited for rough weather and would make a great dive platform which I designed but never built.

Same here, used to rebuild engines and transmissions, never did machine work but always wanted to learn, do a little wood working, very basic, health not very good either.

I was against FlexFuel too until we had a hurricane threat right after I bought my truck. It was late in the evening and I went down to West Palm to help my folks and pick up a generator. Needed to top off my tank before heading back north as it was already pretty late. Saw a station, entered the fuel bays, there was a pump with a yellow handle empty, no lines, that's when I remembered my yellow gas cap! Filled up the truck and noticed a little extra pep in her step. Truck loves the stuff but sometimes their just too proud of it and it does not always make financial sense to run it full strength. I save about $12 a tank mixing some E85 with E88 versus 93 octane and get slightly better gas mileage. Money wise, it boils down to cents per mile. Sixteen versus nineteen cents a mile right now.

Cowpie · November 12, 2019

22 hours ago, jumpinjoe said:

Cowpie wrote ".............................

for instance, I am currently getting E85 at roughly $1.90 a gallon. Premium is going for $2.94. My 2500 averages about 11 MPG for all miles on E85. 14 MPG on road trips. Just to break even, on Premium I would have to average 17 MPG and on road trips get at least 21 MPG. Will never happen.

I compared E85 to Premium because they are equivalent fuels. E85 is 100 octane and Premium is 93. The same equivalencies can be made comparing E10, or better yet E15, to non ethanol regular. Regular E10 is $2.39 in my area, E15 is $2.34, and non ethanol regular is $2.75."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey Cowpie, before we let this topic completely die, I've got to ask one more question. In the short quote above you've mentioned using E85 @ 100 octane and Premium @ 93. OK, I can buy those numbers but what in the world are you driving that requires 100 octane? Maybe the Cadillac, but aren't the other two vehicles relatively low compression engines?

I can see you using the stuff for that much difference in price ($1.04 gal). Considerably more difference than the E15 and non-ethanol regular. I don't check it around here enough to know what the difference in price is, but I know (at least I think I know) for sure I don't drive anything I need 100 octane fuel in. At least I don't think so. I drive a 2014 5.3 Ecotec Silverado (typically 87 or 89 octane) and the wife drives a 2015 Equinox (same as my truck). And coincidentally my sister drives a 2006 CTX or CTS I think. I've never asked her but don't think she needs any high octane fuel either.

I'm going to get out my owner's manuals tomorrow and verify for sure I don't need any high octane, and I'll call her too just out of curiosity. In the meantime, thanks much.

Regards,

jumpinjoe

Nothing I am driving requires 100 octane. But my wife's 2017 Equinox with a DI 2.4L with 11.2:1 compression ratio really doesn't do all that well on regular even though GM says regular is fine. It has trouble keeping in gear on any grade when running regular fuel but does very well with higher octane. And since it is flex fuel capable, we fill it with E85. I don't drive it that much, but I noticed the difference. And the wife definitely noticed the difference. She is the one that fills the Nox and she fills it with E85. She is definitely sold on the idea of using it. I sure am not going to pay more for mid grade or premium when I can get higher octane than regular for less money.

And that was the point.... I can get higher octane than regular and get it for less money than regular. But the real comparison comes when comparing E85 to mid grade or premium, which is the only valid comparison fuels because of higher octane. E85 is over a dollar a gallon cheaper in my area than premium. And it is almost 60 cents cheaper than mid grade gas. And even with the lower mpg from E85, it is still cheaper on a cost per mile basis.

My 2015 2500 6.0 doesn't need the higher octane, as it does relatively ok on regular. But again, the price point is such that I am no losing anything by using E85, and it makes for fewer engine and exhaust deposits and such so it is a win- win in that application also. I can't say that using E85 causes the 6.0 to generate more power, but it sure runs great on it. Now the 5.3, GM's own hp/torque charts showed that using E85 in it did deliver a little more hp and torque compared to using regular.