E85 Flex Fuel - 2019 AT4

[jumpinjoe]

Are none of you guys concerned with the E85 being so hygroscopic, not to mention the high corrosion potential? Down here in the deep south the water issue is a real problem.

 

Regards.

jumpinjoe

[Cowpie]

19 hours ago, jumpinjoe said:

Are none of you guys concerned with the E85 being so hygroscopic, not to mention the high corrosion potential? Down here in the deep south the water issue is a real problem.

 

Regards.

jumpinjoe

They hydroscopic issue is only a problem when the fuel is sitting in the open air.  A modern car or pickup truck has a closed fuel system.  And the ethanol keeps what little moisture may accumulate in the system from pooling up.   You have heard of Heet winter gasoline antifreeze haven't you?   Well, that is alcohol also!  

 

My 2015 2500 6.0 has been on E85 exclusively for 3 years.  Winter, summer, spring, and fall.   Nary a problem.  Also, the wife's 2017 Equinox has been on E85 almost exclusively since we bought it.   No problem.

 

You do know that brake fluid is hydroscopic also.. right?  Well it is,. and do you spend sleepless nights worrying about it?  I doubt it.   Some folks just like to scare the willies out of people about ethanol being a problem.  For lawn mowers, week eaters, etc, yes it can be a problem.  For a modern auto, hardly.

[jumpinjoe]

1 hour ago, Cowpie said:

They hydroscopic issue is only a problem when the fuel is sitting in the open air.  A modern car or pickup truck has a closed fuel system.  And the ethanol keeps what little moisture may accumulate in the system from pooling up.   You have heard of Heet winter gasoline antifreeze haven't you?   Well, that is alcohol also!  

 

My 2015 2500 6.0 has been on E85 exclusively for 3 years.  Winter, summer, spring, and fall.   Nary a problem.  Also, the wife's 2017 Equinox has been on E85 almost exclusively since we bought it.   No problem.

 

You do know that brake fluid is hydroscopic also.. right?  Well it is,. and do you spend sleepless nights worrying about it?  I doubt it.   Some folks just like to scare the willies out of people about ethanol being a problem.  For lawn mowers, week eaters, etc, yes it can ,.be a problem.  For a modern auto, hardly.

Most of what you've said about late model "closed fuel systems" is entirely true, but the problem with H20 comes from ethanol sitting in the tanks in the ground at the stations and depots. As long as it's used and turned on a regular basis, the water will be kept at a fairly constant ratio and once your vehicle learns it, it's not a really big problem. If it never sat in those 'open to the air' tanks and could somehow be kept completely isolated from the air, I'd say OK. But down here where I am the humidity is always high, so anywhere ethanol is sitting, it's going to absorb moisture. Even the small amount of air that enters the tank while you're filling up will bring moisture into the tank and condense on the inside of the tank to later drip or otherwise be introduce into the fuel.  Obviously the worst issues are with the small engines like lawn mowers, chain saws, etc. And it's especially bad on older marine outboard engines that typically set up for maybe weeks or months at a time.

 

And so far we haven't even talked about the corrosive nature of ethanol. Most any car/truck built before about the mid 90's will be harmed when running ethanol, and no one can convince me otherwise. That's no "old wives tale", that's fact. No components in a vehicle from before the mid-late 90's were designed to resist ethanol. I've seen carb and fuel injectors completely ruined by corrosion. I've seen fuel system related gaskets completely eaten away and/or dissolved.

 

As far as brake fluid being hygroscopic, sure I know that. And in vehicles with larger brake fluid capacities like maybe big motor homes or heavy equipment, it's an issue bigger than the normal car and/or pickup. Matter of fact I would usually drain and replace all the fluid in my 1996 Bounder MH every two years. As part of that every two year change of brake fluid, I would also replace every piece of rubber fuel line to the engine and to the generator due to the alcohol until they finally started offering flexible, alcohol resistant fuel lines from the aftermarket. When I'd take a piece of the older style rubber line off, it would more often than not be nothing but 'mush' inside. That mush would often move to a restricted spot in the system and cause much trouble. You have no idea just how mad a wife can be at 8:00 or 9:00 AM when she's in the middle of drying her hair in the MH and the damned generator starves for fuel and stops. Let me assure you that ain't a pretty sight, and especially when all the other couples you're traveling with in their MH's are ready to pull out. And it'll be late in the day before it gets any better.

 

Now most of what I've just written happened back in late 90's and early 2000's. Once I traded for the 2009 it was less of an issue, but by then I'd already developed such a hatred for the alcohol, I'll likely never get over it. I'm driving today a 2014 1500 that's rated and designed for E85, but I do everything in my power to not use any alcohol, much less E85. It's gotten harder and harder to find non contaminated (yes, I said contaminated and that's exactly the way I see it) fuel anymore so I typically end up with E10. But every gallon I pump I grit my teeth and cuss under my breath as to how much I hate alcohol contaminated fuel ............ and the hell of it is, is that it's so unnecessary.

 

Alcohol was originally supposed to reduce the bad emissions into the atmosphere until folks began to see that it reduced mpg by often as much as 11% or more. Well, it don't take a rocket scientist to see if you're using more gallons of fuel to go the same distance, and that fuel is claimed to reduce emissions by up to 8% per gallon, where is the logic? That has finally become more obvious now to all the critics, but we're so indebted to the corn farmers now we can't stop using the crap. They need their corn subsidies from your and my taxes to make a decent living since the gov't made them so damned dependent on those subsidies. And converting all the acreage they did in order to grow as much fuel corn as was needed, caused a reduction in acreage available for feed/food corn, so the price of feed/food corn has gone up accordingly. And the problems/issues of alcohol in our fuel goes on and on. The only good thing that came out of the craze for ethanol fuels is that it's cheaper at the pump. Not cheaper by the mile mind you, cheaper at the pump. Oh, and let me clarify this ..... I don't blame the farmers for this BS at all. They were taken in just like everyone else.

 

So yes, I've got a h_ _d on about alcohol and the way it was presented and forced on us under invalid reasoning. Now that everything has shaken out some, it's a non issue with/for most. But you can take it to the bank I hate it, I HATE IT! I HATE IT! And there are still many, many middle American folks who drive vehicles from before the mid 90's and constantly battle with this crap, again not to mention all their small engine applications. Not all of us can buy a newer vehicle every couple years or when some new and supposedly miracle solution for the atmosphere. So, I'll leave it here since I've pretty much told you how I feel about this crap. Alcohol should be kept for drinking (Jack Daniels, BTW), and gasoline for our vehicles.

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

[jumpinjoe]

Ha, Ha, Ha ........... to Cowpie. I just noticed where you're from .... Iowa. Are you by any chance a corn farmer or part of a family of corn farmers? If so, it makes sense why you would like the alcohol fuel so well. And that's in no way a knock on you or Iowa, or Iowa corn farmers. I already said I didn't fault the farmers for the issue. I blame our illustrious gov't, and their underhanded dealings.

 

They don't give a damn about how bad the alcohol fuel is for anything. Most don't even own their own vehicles and those that do are trading up often enough to not have even noticed any issues with corn gasoline. And we know damned well they don't have any small engines like lawn mowers, chain saws and weed eaters laying around to crud up because they all have yard services to take care of them.

 

Yeh, it's pretty obvious I don't like the alcohol in my gasoline down here in Florida !!!!!!!

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

[Cowpie]

1 hour ago, jumpinjoe said:

Ha, Ha, Ha ........... to Cowpie. I just noticed where you're from .... Iowa. Are you by any chance a corn farmer or part of a family of corn farmers? If so, it makes sense why you would like the alcohol fuel so well. And that's in no way a knock on you or Iowa, or Iowa corn farmers. I already said I didn't fault the farmers for the issue. I blame our illustrious gov't, and their underhanded dealings.

 

They don't give a damn about how bad the alcohol fuel is for anything. Most don't even own their own vehicles and those that do are trading up often enough to not have even noticed any issues with corn gasoline. And we know damned well they don't have any small engines like lawn mowers, chain saws and weed eaters laying around to crud up because they all have yard services to take care of them.

 

Yeh, it's pretty obvious I don't like the alcohol in my gasoline down here in Florida !!!!!!!

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

 

Well to be fair, I grew up on a farm in Iowa, but haven't had any part of farming since the 1960's, at which point I gave up the farm life due to an invitation by the Govt to go to wild and exotic places like SE Asia with the Army in the early 70's.   But I do like ethanol because it is a good value.  I can buy E85 for $1.89 right now.  It has 100 Octane and my wife's 2017 Equinox with 11.2:1 compression ratio dearly loves the stuff.  Premium fuel is $2.94.   Even though I get a lower mpg with E85, it still costs me less per mile to use.  And that is my primary motivation.... I get to keep more of my money in my wallet.

 

You do know don't you that Henry Ford originally made his cars to run on ethanol?  True stuff.  

 

But as for vehicles prior to the 90's being damaged by ethanol.  Folks in the upper midwest have been using  E10 since at least the late 70's.  My 1974 Pontiac Bonneville lived on E10 for most of its 250,000 miles.  It finally died in the early 90's of body cancer, but the motor and fuel system were just fine.  Same for my 1979 Bronco and a couple of other vehicles, though I didn't rack up as many miles on each of them as I did the Bonny.  

 

My Mom and Dad's 1980 Suburban lived on E10 for all of its life with them.  They traveled a lot with it and racked up over 200K miles. Sold it to a guy in town and he kept on driving it.  Ethanol didn't do any damage to it.

 

If one doesn't like ethanol in their fuel, then don't buy it!  Problem solved.  I really could care less if anyone doesn't like the stuff.  Only 7 states mandate the use of ethanol fuels, down from 9 states several years ago.  Some states like Maine want to ban ethanol blending in the entire state.  Fine with me.  Now, some will argue that the Feds mandate E10, but that is not the case.  The Feds only mandate that 12 billion gallons of ethanol be put in the system. How is it used, or if it is used at all, is up to the individual states and retailers.     

 

Oh....  and Florida is not one of the states where ethanol is mandated!  You should be tickled pink!   Buy all the ethanol free fuel to your heart's content!  The corn lobby, the ethanol producers, and even the Federal government are not forcing you to buy ethanol laced fuel.  If that is all you can buy, then your problem is with your state or municipal government and the retailers in your area.  In other words, your outrage is misplaced.  Man up and grow a pair and take on your local retailers and government for forcing you to buy E10.  Here in Iowa "ethanol central" where we grow more corn than anywhere else in N. America and I am surrounded by 46 ethanol plants, I can buy ethanol free fuel at dozens of stations around me if I wanted it.  And I do buy ethanol free gas for my small equipment needs.  Our hired help in Des Moines doesn't force anything down our throat.

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1099149_state-laws-on-ethanol-in-gasoline-only-seven-states-require-e10-blend

 

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2015/07/16/which-states-require-ethanol-in-your-fuel-fewer-than-you-might-think/

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Cowpie

[jumpinjoe]

With all due respect Cowpie, you're correct in that Florida does not mandate alcohol contaminated fuel, but they indirectly cause one to have to buy it simply because the supply of pure gasoline is so limited and the feds have to share the misery of the alcohol contaminated stuff across all states.. Of all the stations in a 10mi radius of where I live, there's probably no more than 8-10 stations that are not company stations where HQ requires the product sold. Very, very few independents, and they are the ones who most often will have straight gas. And routinely it runs about $1.20 (+ -) more than E-10.

 

But the reality is this ................ if there is that much difference in the price of straight gas compared to contaminated gas in your neighborhood, it would stand to reason due to where you live. The will never sell the farmers down the river on this crap, then charge them more for the same crap after refining. It's all 'Big Business".

 

And as for your good luck with all the vehicles using the E-10, and especially the Bonneville, again I'll remind that in Florida, the humidity is more often than not above 50%. In Iowa, what is it?....... 10% max on a real rainy day. It doesn't take a really big difference in average humidity levels to make a pretty big difference in absorption rates of the alcohol.

 

I have to run my AC in the house at about 68-70F all the time, especially in late summer to late fall just to keep the humidity in my house below 50%. It's not quite that bad, but bad enough. I'm just trying to make a [point.  And even at that I keep a pint sized desiccant container in my gun safes to ensure they're protected. I bet out in Iowa you don't even have to oil your guns more than maybe once a year when hunting season ends, huh?

 

Like everything else in life, the negative impact of alcohol gasoline is relative to not only where you live, but the conditions surrounding where and how the stuff is handled and stored where you live. So that being the case, I wish you continued success with the alcohol in your vehicles. My preference is to put mine in a 3 finger deep glass with a couple ice cubes. Maybe a little water on the side. I'll put uncontaminated gasoline in my trucks and cars whenever possible.

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

 

On Edit: This one statement ( Over the last decade-plus, a total of 14 states have reportedly tried to pass ethanol mandates, but apparently a 50-percent success rate is the best advocates can muster.) tells it like most states are seeing it now, even though they were all sold a 'bill of goods' when all this crap began. And even now a majority of states that still require a certain amount of alcohol are looking to overturn any mandates passed in the past that required a certain amount.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by jumpinjoe
an addendum

[jumpinjoe]

Holy crap man, Iowa has tried 4 times in the past 10 years to get an alcohol mandate, and still no luck.

 

It must be 'something in the water' out there. We know how much you like it so it must be inherent in the general population. LOL!

 

Just pulling your chain a little, it's all good. Different strokes for different folks, etc. If you like it and it works for you, more power to you.

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

[KARNUT]

Holy crap man, Iowa has tried 4 times in the past 10 years to get an alcohol mandate, and still no luck.
 
It must be 'something in the water' out there. We know how much you like it so it must be inherent in the general population. LOL!
 
Just pulling your chain a little, it's all good. Different strokes for different folks, etc. If you like it and it works for you, more power to you.
 
Regards,
jumpinjoe

I live in the Houston area, I match you on humidity. My 29 year old truck, my 18,15, 11, year old cars has no problems with the bend here. My 18 year old old car usually has the same gas in the tank for six months at time. My old chainsaw weed eaters etc don’t have a problem either. My 14 GMC only ran on E-85 here and blends on trips. Never a problem.


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[Cowpie]

Some of you folks must think Iowa is a desert region.  Some low IQ types mistake it for Idaho.  Heck, less than 1% of the crop land is irrigated.  As for humidity, we get fairly humid.  Today is 67%.  Summers can get pretty muggy.  That is why the corn grows so well.... lots of moisture, hot summers, and good soil.
 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Cowpie

[Black02Silverado]

If you don't have an option to find ethanol free fuel, the next best thing to do is find a station that has a high turnover.  That way at least the fuel is fresh.

 

There is also locating a pure gas station from here. 

[MaverickZ71]

5 hours ago, Cowpie said:

Some of you folks must think Iowa is a desert region.  Some low IQ types mistake it for Idaho.  Heck, less than 1% of the crop land is irrigated.  As for humidity, we get fairly humid.  Today is 67%.  Summers can get pretty muggy.  That is why the corn grows so well.... lots of moisture, hot summers, and good soil.
 

Some of those folks probably couldn't find Iowa on a map of the U.S.  Heck, some of them probably couldn't find the U.S. of A. on a map of the world, for that matter.  

[Cowpie]

Kinda reminds me that many do not know which side we fought on in the Viet Nam war.   Or those man on the street interviews where people don't know who their senators are or who the VP is.   

Edited November 1, 2019 by Cowpie

[jumpinjoe]

Well. all I can say guys is if it works for you and you like it, more power to ya. In my case it never was worth a damn and was a pain in my arse. I'll make only a couple observations based on what's been written here in the last few posts.

 

First for Karnut, all the vehicles you've named are well within the age bracket I mentioned for being more available to ethanol. I think I said cars after mid-late 90's were more readily adapted to the alcohol with more impervious fuel lines and gasket materials. I don't know what to say about your 29 yr old truck except that if I had a 29 yr old truck, I wouldn't put that crap in it if you paid me too. So I'm especially glad to hear that it's good for you, I've just never been quite so lucky. My '96 model P-30 MH chassis was only 5 yrs older than your 18 yr old car and I had continual problems with it. I would often start searching at 1/2 tank to find uncontaminated gasoline for the older MH when we were on a trip. Often an impossibility depending on where we were.

 

And I'm fairly certain that even with Houston having some days with high humidity, and occasionally as high Florida,  it typically doesn't match the number of days that Florida has those kind of days. Got no stats right in front of me to prove that, just a gut feeling. And it's very likely that where I grew up and spent the majority of my 'grown up' days was one of those where the fuel turnover was very slow and limited so the contact time with the atmosphere was always considerably longer than for someone who lived in a big town.

 

I've already told you guys I lived so far out in the country that when I wanted to go hunting I had to go 'TOWARDS' town. Now that's a little bit of a stretch, but not much. And the last thought I'll share is that most of my life I've done basically everything for myself, often due to living out in the country where service guys and contractors were few and far between. And because of that I've owned lawn mowers, weed eaters, edgers, chain saws and more, all with small engines that hated alcohol. And with so many different machines, and living so far out of town, I always had to keep gas on hand. I've also owned several outboards over the years along with older aircraft engines for my air boats, all not good on alcohol. And then the 34' Bounder MH which was a constant problem, the later 2009 was not particularly.

 

For MaverickZ71, I can assure you I not only can find The US of A on most any map, but without too much effort can locate Iowa. And for Cowpie, I'm not sure what knowing which side of the fight we were on in NAM has to do with ethanol, but I assure you I know which side I was on .............. and I can even point it out on a world map.

 

So I'll not say my circumstances with ethanol might not have been any worse than any of yours, but for whatever reason I have to believe it was and I hate, I hate, I hate it. And with the loss of mpg being greater than any reduction in emissions, and never being anything such as real tree hugger anyway, I never found any need nor use for it. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

And about my comment regarding not being a real tree hugger, let me say that applies primarily to the alcohol fuel conundrum and that I am a reasonably serious conservationist.

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

 

 

 

 

[jumpinjoe]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys do your own internal engine work and how long have you been doing it? I'm not talking about tuning with a laptop or tuner, I'm referring to actually getting in there greasy and dirty up to your elbows and fixing something. That would also have some bearing on what issues one might have seen and how one would feel about them.

 

Now, nothing wrong with lap tops and tuners, but we didn't have them in my day. More often than not we didn't even have many aftermarket parts in my day. Well hell my first car I actually made the wooden spoke wheels for it.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

[TJay74]

1 hour ago, jumpinjoe said:

Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys do your own internal engine work and how long have you been doing it? I'm not talking about tuning with a laptop or tuner, I'm referring to actually getting in there greasy and dirty up to your elbows and fixing something. That would also have some bearing on what issues one might have seen and how one would feel about them.

 

Now, nothing wrong with lap tops and tuners, but we didn't have them in my day. More often than not we didn't even have many aftermarket parts in my day. Well hell my first car I actually made the wooden spoke wheels for it.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Regards,

jumpinjoe

 

 

I have ran E85 for years now, zero issues. i work on my own stuff as well, zero issues.

I was against the forced Ethanol for many years, was never interested in the E85 stuff at all. I had my 14 Sierra AT 6.2 / A6 and never looked at Ethanol, replaced it with my 16 Sierra AT 6.2 / A8 and still didnt mess with it. Then I added my 17 Camaro SS 1LE to the stable and went thru the mods on it. Ended up at 431rwhp with headers, CAI and a ported IM/TB combo. Car was very fun to drive. Then I spent some time really reading up about E85 and the pro's/con's to it. I did the same thing many years ago in regards to octane, how it works, the combustion process in regards to the flame front and detonation. I applied that knowledge to the E85 fuel and learned I was wasting a huge resource by not using it. 

That Camaro SS that was putting down 431rwhp jumped to almost 460rwhp with just the change over to E85 and the tuning. Car went from being run to a nice stout DD. Then I added a Procharger D1SC and went from 460rwhp to 650rwhp. The pro's of E85 on a modern vehicle far outweigh and con's.

I am in OKC, we are humid as well, not Houston humid but we do have year round humidity. Zero issues with E85 at all, as long as you dont park the car with an empty tank for a year you will be fine. As said the fuel system is sealed, the gas station fuel systems are sealed as well and have to use a specific vent system. It isnt like the E85 is sitting outside in the open air with constant air circulation. The humidity (water) in the air isnt sitting there and just puddling up and adding ounces or gallons to the E85 at all.

JumpinJoe if you want to hate E85 because the .Gov forced it on us then by all means do so, once you learn about E85 and move past the .Gov issues from 20-30 years ago in regards to how E85 was implemented you will find out that E85 is an awesome fuel source and has tons of advantages.

-it burns cooler than gasoline

-it produces less carbon soot, the piston tops and combustion chamber stays cleaner, the exhaust tip stays cleaner

-it has a 105 octane rating.

-it allows way more timing which is where most of the HP increase comes from

-it is cheaper than gasoline, especially in the 6.2l trucks where 91/93 are required to be run in them. City driving/interstate driving it is dang near almost a wash

 

The only con is it takes an extra 30% more fuel, depending on the mods it may require the in-tank LPFP from the ZL1 Camaro along with the HPFP and the injectors if you push the mods. The nice thing about E85 is at roughly E50 you have gained about 75% of the HP you will gain from swapping over to it. I got to 455rwhp in my Camaro at E50, once I got to over E80 I only found another 5rwhp when I was N/A. Now that I am supercharged on the Camaro it is the difference in me making 600rwhp on 91 or 650rwhp on E50.

The GM trucks are already prone to detonation, the 5.3 and 6.2 trucks have shown this since the new platform came out in 2014. The 6.2l shoudnt run anything less than 91 and neither should the 5.3l trucks. The OEM tune in all of GM vehicles is already setup for E10, so you can literally run 91 octane and then 10% of E85 with zero issues, I have ran E20 with zero issues in our other car which is a 2016 Audi SQ5 that has a 3.0l supercharged V6. It was rated at 355hp from the factory, I have it tuned with a pulley and all the normal bolt on mods and it is near 475hp now. I am getting ready to do the last round of mods next year with a new intercooler and the second pulley update and it will go to 500hp. I run 91 E15-20 in it during the summer months and that little 4300lb SUV is a little rocket on the stuff.

Again hate it if you want, E85 is here to stay as the performance vehicle guys like me love it. My 16 Sierra 6.2 has been on E85 for almost 2 years now, zero issues. I drove from OKC to Dallas last weekend on a full tank of E85 (it was actually E70 due to winter blend from what the Ethanol sensor reported). I ran about 75-80 MPH the entire way and still knocked down almost 18mpg.